Does God have faith in us?

[Tangent_String]

I have been a fan of Rob Bell's for a while now, but recently realized how much controversy there was surrounding him. So I've decided to do research on what all the controversy is about and most of it is clearly taking what he has said out of context.

But... I found this on youtube - GodTube Video [youtube link removed by George and replaced with a God Tube videoNote from Worthy Christian Forums -- We do not allow YouTube links, but we do allow GodTube links. If you find a link on youtube, more than likely you can find the exact movie on GodTube, so please use the GodTube version.

For those who don't want to take the 10 minutes to watch it, basically he takes a clip from one of Rob Bell's short films, titled Dust. In this short Rob Bell talks about how Peter and the other desciples see Jesus walking on water, and Peter, who thinks he's a ghost says "Lord! Is it you?" And Jesus says that it is. So Peter wants to walk on the water too. Bell says that a disciple wanted nothing more than to be like his Rabbi, and Peter is no different. Peter wants to walk on water just like his Rabbi. So Peter gets out of the boat, walks a few steps, and sinks. Bell says "who does peter lose faith in? Christ? Jesus didn't sink. Peter lost faith in peter."

So the point Rob Bell is making is that Jesus has faith in US, to be like him. This has meant a great deal to me, knowing that Christ sees more in me than just a pile of filth. That there IS more to me than just a pile of filth.

So this pastor has an argument against what Rob Bell is saying. He's going so far as to call Bell a false teacher! He's saying that to say Christ having faith in us is blasphemous (essentially.) He mentioned something in a reply to someone about depravity. I did some research on depravity and it seems to stem from a Wesleyan view of theology. My understanding of total depravity after my research is this - Man is inherently sinful, and wicked. We aren't necessarily as wicked as we can be, but we aren't by any stretch good. That there are a few kinds of grace. Perennial grace is a kind of grace that allows us to go to God. A kind of pre-grace grace that allows us to connect to God despite our sin (please correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't research this stuff until tonight.) Perennial grace leads the way to salvation if we so choose.

So the question is then... with a wesleyan doctrine including total depravity, does that mean God doesn't have faith in us? All he sees is a pile of filth? This scares me a lot! I know I need God, and I know I'm nothing without him but... is there really nothing God likes about me? Why did he make me if I'm so useless? And then what does this say about free will? If I'm so bad, then I can't force myself to do good (which is also apart of the depravity theology according to what I read.) But even after grace has come, any good work comes from God, and by no choice of my own because there is no good in me. And then what does that say about people who do good who have never accepted Christ as their savior? Like Ghandi for instance. He changed an entire culture for the better. I've also heard of a woman recently who pushed a child out of the way of a car, only to be hit by it herself. She died. According to the article, I believe she was Mormon. Was that not a good act? I'm not saying she goes to heaven but... that seems like a conscious choice to do good.

So I'm confused here, and scared of the answer, but I really need some feedback. Please help guys

thanks in advance

Edited July 17, 2008 by George
Remove YouTube Video and replaced with GodTube identical video

[MorningGlory]

I would think that if the Lord didn't have faith in us, and wasn't willing to keep us, we would have gone the way of the dinosaurs. He has promised to never leave or forsake His own, and He is always faithful. I thank Him every day for the blessings He has shown me and have total faith that He will continue to do so. He requires only our faith and belief in Him....and offers eternal life in return. That's pretty faithful on His part, IMO.

[jehovah Nissi]

If He's not putting His faith in us...we're in trouble. It is imposible to please God without faith (Hebrews 11:6). If God wants us to walk by faith, then wouldn't He give us the means to do it by...by being an example for us. God will never ask His children to do something that He wouldn't do Himself. He created this world by faith; He created the heavens by faith; He created the stars by faith; He created you and I by faith; and just like we putting our faith in His word, He put His faith in what He said..."Light be, and light was". He speaks those this that be not as though they were (Romans 4:17). I think It would be blasphemous to say that God dosn't put His faith in us. Look at Gideon in Judges chapter 6 when he declared that "I am the least of my Fathers house." A few verses before God says to him through an arc angel "God is with you, you mighty man of valor!" Gideon wasn't seeing himself as a man of valor at that time and obviously he wasn't acting like a man of valor because he saw himself as a wimp. But what does God do? He puts his faith in Gideon...He called that thing that was not as though it was and said "thou mighty man of valor!" What an awsome God. We ought to rejoice that He puts His faith in us. He calls us things that we are not yet as though we were! What a great God! welcome to worthy by the way.

J

[Tangent_String]

alright so it is good news that he has faith in us, but then what does that say about total depravity? Am I misunderstanding it's meaning, or is it simply false doctrine?

[Tangent_String]

okay so I did more research and it appears plain that Wesley did NOT believe in total depravity, but that that was a Calvinistic approach. John Wesley original (according to his journals, which I am reading) was something of a puritan. But he didn't understand salvation, as can be seen when he talked to a pastor named .... Oglethorpe I believe? Anyway, John Wesley revealed what he believes, and that he "hopes he's saved" and he"hopes God loves him." But he didn't know these things for sure.

He wasn't saved yet.

He preached a sermon after becoming saved called "almost Christian" talking about people who tried to live rigid lives, and weren't digging deeper. And basically attacking Calvin's belief in total depravity.

So sweet, makes sense now.

[EricH]

I have been a fan of Rob Bell's for a while now, but recently realized how much controversy there was surrounding him. So I've decided to do research on what all the controversy is about and most of it is clearly taking what he has said out of context.

But... I found this on youtube -

For those who don't want to take the 10 minutes to watch it, basically he takes a clip from one of Rob Bell's short films, titled Dust. In this short Rob Bell talks about how Peter and the other desciples see Jesus walking on water, and Peter, who thinks he's a ghost says "Lord! Is it you?" And Jesus says that it is. So Peter wants to walk on the water too. Bell says that a disciple wanted nothing more than to be like his Rabbi, and Peter is no different. Peter wants to walk on water just like his Rabbi. So Peter gets out of the boat, walks a few steps, and sinks. Bell says "who does peter lose faith in? Christ? Jesus didn't sink. Peter lost faith in peter."

So the point Rob Bell is making is that Jesus has faith in US, to be like him. This has meant a great deal to me, knowing that Christ sees more in me than just a pile of filth. That there IS more to me than just a pile of filth.

So this pastor has an argument against what Rob Bell is saying. He's going so far as to call Bell a false teacher! He's saying that to say Christ having faith in us is blasphemous (essentially.) He mentioned something in a reply to someone about depravity. I did some research on depravity and it seems to stem from a Wesleyan view of theology. My understanding of total depravity after my research is this - Man is inherently sinful, and wicked. We aren't necessarily as wicked as we can be, but we aren't by any stretch good. That there are a few kinds of grace. Perennial grace is a kind of grace that allows us to go to God. A kind of pre-grace grace that allows us to connect to God despite our sin (please correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't research this stuff until tonight.) Perennial grace leads the way to salvation if we so choose.

So the question is then... with a wesleyan doctrine including total depravity, does that mean God doesn't have faith in us? All he sees is a pile of filth? This scares me a lot! I know I need God, and I know I'm nothing without him but... is there really nothing God likes about me? Why did he make me if I'm so useless? And then what does this say about free will? If I'm so bad, then I can't force myself to do good (which is also apart of the depravity theology according to what I read.) But even after grace has come, any good work comes from God, and by no choice of my own because there is no good in me. And then what does that say about people who do good who have never accepted Christ as their savior? Like Ghandi for instance. He changed an entire culture for the better. I've also heard of a woman recently who pushed a child out of the way of a car, only to be hit by it herself. She died. According to the article, I believe she was Mormon. Was that not a good act? I'm not saying she goes to heaven but... that seems like a conscious choice to do good.

So I'm confused here, and scared of the answer, but I really need some feedback. Please help guys

thanks in advance

I think the best answer is that God knows us and has chosen to love us unconditionally. He does not need to have "faith" in us. He knows us completely

[Guest Honolulu-Dad]

I agree with EricH.

God really does not have "faith" in us. What He does have is unconditional love for us. We must remember that God knew us before the foundations of the earth.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. God has seen the beginning from the end and everything in between. He simply does not need faith.

May the Lord richly bless you,

H-Dad

[Tangent_String]

Well thanks everyone for the replies, and sorry for posting the youtube link, I didn't realize that was against the rules, but now that I think about it, I completely understand the reasoning. Thank you for taking the time to find the video on Godtube.

[jehovah Nissi]

I agree with EricH.

God really does not have "faith" in us. What He does have is unconditional love for us. We must remember that God knew us before the foundations of the earth. this took faith

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. God has seen the beginning from the end and everything in between. He simply does not need faith.

May the Lord richly bless you,

H-Dad

How can God have unconditional love twards us without faith (Galatians 5:6, 1 John 4:8 - faith working through God). Everything you said about God seeing the end from the begining (I think is what you ment)...that takes nothing but faith (Heb. 11:1 - you quoted it)...that's what faith is! He created us in His image and likness right? And if it is impossible to please God without faith (Heb. 11:6)...then faith must be a pretty big part of God.

Please, back your theories up with scripture. The ones you gave actually proved your theory wrong...And back them up with scripture especially when you are giving someong an answer to their question. I say this in Love...the Word of God must be rightly divided.

[EricH]

I agree with EricH.

God really does not have "faith" in us. What He does have is unconditional love for us. We must remember that God knew us before the foundations of the earth. this took faith

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. God has seen the beginning from the end and everything in between. He simply does not need faith.

May the Lord richly bless you,

H-Dad

How can God have unconditional love twards us without faith (Galatians 5:6, 1 John 4:8 - faith working through God). Everything you said about God seeing the end from the begining (I think is what you ment)...that takes nothing but faith (Heb. 11:1 - you quoted it)...that's what faith is! He created us in His image and likness right? And if it is impossible to please God without faith (Heb. 11:6)...then faith must be a pretty big part of God.

Please, back your theories up with scripture. The ones you gave actually proved your theory wrong...And back them up with scripture especially when you are giving someong an answer to their question. I say this in Love...the Word of God must be rightly divided.

I think you have misunderstood the original question. It was not addressed to our faith in God, but if God had faith in us