Can't be racist, so we'll fingerprint EVERYONE

[Rick-Parker]

We need to do something about illegal immigration, about false SS#, about employers being able to say that they thought the documents were real.

This is one of my pet peeves. My husband has a business, doesn't want to hire illegals but he cannot tell the difference in any of the SS cards, birth certificates or DL's so what is he to do? The DMV cannot even tell them apart and I just can't believe that the new ID cards can't be faked either. If theres a will theres a way seems to apply here. Should my husband get fined, lose whats left of his business because he unknowingly hired an illegal? I do know one or two illegals and cannot tell the difference in their SS and DL's when compared to mine. I myself don't think any form of ID is secure so why would I want all my personal, medical or any other data out there in one single card. Personally I do not think this has anything to do with the mark of the beast but I could be wrong.

I don't think it has to do with the "mark" either. I don't know the type of business your husband has or the steps he takes to insure that his workers are legal. There are ways to ensure the validity of documents, but I don't know the cost or time involved. The Social Security Administration makes it very easy to check if a number is valid and issued to the person who presents it. I do know that a background check, which almost every employer requires, solves the problem. It is almost impossible to fake a background check. If you want to work in the health care or child care industries, you must provide finger prints to the State regulatory agency or employer for a national background check. Even Wal-Mart does a background check.

The new passports are much more tamper or forgery proof (as will be the RealID) and would be a very expensive endeaver to forge. For terrorists that is not an issue as they really have no limit on funds, but illegals would not be able to obtain forgeries. Then employers will have no excuse.

[mizzdy]

There are ways to ensure the validity of documents, but I don't know the cost or time involved. The Social Security Administration makes it very easy to check if a number is valid and issued to the person who presents it. I do know that a background check, which almost every employer requires, solves the problem. It is almost impossible to fake a background check. If you want to work in the health care or child care industries, you must provide finger prints to the State regulatory agency or employer for a national background check. Even Wal-Mart does a background check.

It is timely and costly to do all that but my husband tries, he is a plumber and has worked construction most of his life. We actually ran a known fake SS card through the Adm. office and it came back clear, so nothing is fallible. I have been fingerprinted throught the CA system for work in the school district and also here in NV and when I had them done here the one from CA didn't show up for some reason so they held my work card up for a week or so but I never was told what the problem was. Perhaps in todays system it may be much harder to fake a background check but I know for a fact it can be done. I know several people that work for walmart and all they had to do was get their sheriff and health cards and half of those that I know are illegals so that must mean that walmart knowingly hires illegals. If someone wants something badly enough they will find a way to get it. There is no easy answer but lumping everyone onto a system that has yet to prove it can work is not an ideal system either.

[Rick-Parker]

This is not meant for your husband but as a general statement so please don't be offended.

1) If employers paid a living wage then there would be Americans standing in line for the jobs that illegals hold, which many employers claim "Americans won't do."

2) If everyone who knew a company that employed illegals reported them to ICE, then there would be less employers hiring them and less complicity from those who hold such knowledge.

3) If large employers who hire illegals were sent to jail, then the trickle effect would mean that there would not be so many illegals trying to get jobs here and would just stay home and pressure their own governments to increase their standard of living. That what NAFTA and other free trade agreements are meant to address.

4) If the feds withhold government monies from sanctuary cities, there would be less of them.

All these issues (aside from terrorism) are why the government feels the need for a national, tamper proof system of identification. We are bringing this upon ourselves because we don't want to pay employees a fair wage. I'll stop hijacking the thread no. Sorry.

[LadyRaven]

This is not meant for your husband but as a general statement so please don't be offended.

1) If employers paid a living wage then there would be Americans standing in line for the jobs that illegals hold, which many employers claim "Americans won't do."

2) If everyone who knew a company that employed illegals reported them to ICE, then there would be less employers hiring them and less complicity from those who hold such knowledge.

3) If large employers who hire illegals were sent to jail, then the trickle effect would mean that there would not be so many illegals trying to get jobs here and would just stay home and pressure their own governments to increase their standard of living. That what NAFTA and other free trade agreements are meant to address.

4) If the feds withhold government monies from sanctuary cities, there would be less of them.

All these issues (aside from terrorism) are why the government feels the need for a national, tamper proof system of identification. We are bringing this upon ourselves because we don't want to pay employees a fair wage. I'll stop hijacking the thread no. Sorry.

I'm with you there, bro.

[buckthesystem]

If, if, if. It will be very hard to counterfeit the ID. The system will be so redundant that life will not cease if one part crashes. We need to do something about illegal immigration, about false SS#, about employers being able to say that they thought the documents were real. Illegals getting drivers licenses, sanctuary cities/states giving welfare, education and health care to people who are illegally here. The best way to do that is through the secure ID process.

So your concern is with illegal immigrants getting services paid for by the American taxpayer that they are not entitled to, and you are perfectly willing to give up your rights to freedom and liberty, be tracked and monitored, and all the things that Ladyraven mentioned above, so as to lessen the chance of that happening, "lessen" but not "eliminate altogether"?

Sounds a bit like "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

[buckthesystem]

it is quite possible to fake the realID, and if your identity is stolen how are you gonna get issued new DNA? or prints?

Right now, if the atm goes down, I can charge stuff to my Debit card, so that the money can come out later, when it is up. No problem. If someone steals my ID, I can get a new DL, with a new DL# and I can get a new bank account and debit card.

However, if REAL ID goes down, the ATM won't work, the passport wont work, the security system at work or school wont work, etc...and if you accidently get deleted from the system, you suddenly dont exist at all. No money, no legal DL, can't work, cant go to school, etc.

And if it gets hacked and your id is stolen...you cant just get new ID, your id is your prints or other proprietary bio info that is unique to you. And now it is someone else's. Until you get that straightened out, life could be a real bother.

Agree 100%, that's one of the worst things about real id! I wish more people would see that.

Though "...until you get that straightened". Well you have to take into consideration just how difficult it would be to get straightened, after all it IS bureaucrats you would be dealing with, DMV and HS bureaucrats.

[LadyRaven]

it is quite possible to fake the realID, and if your identity is stolen how are you gonna get issued new DNA? or prints?

Right now, if the atm goes down, I can charge stuff to my Debit card, so that the money can come out later, when it is up. No problem. If someone steals my ID, I can get a new DL, with a new DL# and I can get a new bank account and debit card.

However, if REAL ID goes down, the ATM won't work, the passport wont work, the security system at work or school wont work, etc...and if you accidently get deleted from the system, you suddenly dont exist at all. No money, no legal DL, can't work, cant go to school, etc.

And if it gets hacked and your id is stolen...you cant just get new ID, your id is your prints or other proprietary bio info that is unique to you. And now it is someone else's. Until you get that straightened out, life could be a real bother.

Agree 100%, that's one of the worst things about real id! I wish more people would see that.

Though "...until you get that straightened". Well you have to take into consideration just how difficult it would be to get straightened, after all it IS bureaucrats you would be dealing with, DMV and HS bureaucrats.

I was also being nice, assuming that most govt agents really arent out to stick it to me, but you know, there might just be a day when libertarians like me become politically blacklisted and realid would see that I didn't have access to anything. All they have to do is shut it all down. I do see tryanny on the horizon of the message of people like Ron Paul dont reach enough people. The US has forgotten what the constitution says and many are too scared or confused to care. It's just a few steps away, if things dont change. The old soviet union was bad, nazi germany was bad, I'd hate to see a tyranny with realID at its disposal.

[Rick-Parker]

If, if, if. It will be very hard to counterfeit the ID. The system will be so redundant that life will not cease if one part crashes. We need to do something about illegal immigration, about false SS#, about employers being able to say that they thought the documents were real. Illegals getting drivers licenses, sanctuary cities/states giving welfare, education and health care to people who are illegally here. The best way to do that is through the secure ID process.

So your concern is with illegal immigrants getting services paid for by the American taxpayer that they are not entitled to, and you are perfectly willing to give up your rights to freedom and liberty, be tracked and monitored, and all the things that Ladyraven mentioned above, so as to lessen the chance of that happening, "lessen" but not "eliminate altogether"?

Sounds a bit like "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

Well, BTS, please don't put words in my mouth. I give up nothing. How will the RealID take away my freedom and liberty?

[buckthesystem]

[

Well, BTS, please don't put words in my mouth. I give up nothing. How will the RealID take away my freedom and liberty?

Well, real id will take away your freedom and liberty by putting you in the position of having to ask the government's permission to do basic, every day, things, like going to national parks, shops, doctors, dentists, banks, any government buildings, travelling, and it goes on and on ..............

The government will have the ability to track where you went, how you got there and when you got home?"

information required by the Department of Homeland Security will be uploaded into a database. In other words, if you get a REAL ID, you will be treated like a criminal, can have your literal citizenship turned off at the will of the DHS, and any changes can be made to the regulations at any time, for any reason. With a bogus one million plus citizens already on the terror watch lists , this is extremely dangerous.

Then there is the biometric measurements. The DHS has demanded "some biometrics". What right do they have to take this most private, intimate, information from you? And if your real id card is stolen or lost and compromised, what are you supposed to do? Get new biometrics?

The card will be a picture I.D in which they intend to install a radio chip the size of a grain of sand. Each person in the country will have his or her own frequency, and own personal information, at the easy availability of any one with a reader. The police will have readers. Legislation is on the way to REQUIRE employers to own a reader. Eventually the chip is intended to go subcutaneous (under your skin). Without the card you will not be able to get aboard a plane or have an account, eventually you will not be able to eat if you do not comply.

However, we are talking about "taking away rights", rights that you have now, so:

The DL/ID card is considered by many to be de facto ID, controlling our ability to buy, sell and move. REAL ID, biometric ID and database linking violate the First, Fourth and Tenth Amendments. Global database linking will certainly result in an ID theft pandemic. DHS-TSA can't even keep track of computer hard drives. How are they to protect our personal information when shared with other nations?

An international system of identification, that links one physically (through biometrics) to the control of financial transactions, threatens the religious beliefs of millions. The illegal searching of personal effects and papers without warrant or probable cause violates protected privacy and personal security. The Tenth Amendment protects states' rights to issue ID and prevents federal tyranny by keeping those powers close to the people. The federal-international hijacking of state ID means that people lose access to the government entity that administers control of the ID. In this case, the ID document has potential control over our ability to buy, sell and move.

Once databases are linked, under REAL ID or other legislation, U.S. citizens will be PERMANENTLY enrolled in a system that wrecks their constitutional liberties and their constitutional rule over their government. As a result, REAL ID, biometric ID, database linking and the actions of DHS are all unconstitutional.

Like I said before, if you want this - great, but don't impose it on others.

[Rick-Parker]

I don't see it like you do. And I have never advocated RealID nor would I impose it upon anyone.