Saved (born again)???

[BobTriez]

If you look at when the commandment to be baptized was given, it was well after the theif on the cross.

Plus, the Bible never says he wasn't baptized--that is an asumption.

Also, if you click on the link I provided, you will see that people as early as 100 AD were intrepreting John 3:5 as meaning water baptism.

Click on the link and read it.

God did his part--we must do our part which is have the proper response to the Gospel.

That includes submitting to believers baptism.

If you look at when the commandment to be baptized was given, it was well after the theif on the cross.

Plus, the Bible never says he wasn't baptized--that is an asumption.

Even if you could use that argument and the thief was baptized ( certainly not by immersion as I doubt the Romans would take a condemned man off a cross so he could be baptized ), it would have happened after his salvation.. He repented and immediately Jesus forgave him and told him he'd be in paradise.

It is simply un Biblical to say baptism saves a person - only Christ does. If baptism could save, then Christ would not have had to die - yes ?

Also, if you click on the link I provided, you will see that people as early as 100 AD were intrepreting John 3:5 as meaning water baptism.

That may very well be, but it goes against everything Jesus taught ( both directly and through inspiration ). Show me one case in the Bible where someone repented and they were told they still were not saved and had to be baptized to complete the job. You won't, but I suggest you look anyway since it will make you scour the scriptures ( I've learned a lot myself that way ).

Tell me, if baptism saves, do you need to be baptized every time you confess your sins ? Most of us would most likely need to take up residence in a swimming pool if that were the case....

Anyway, I like how eric put it two posts up - But I wont argue about it, I have enough problems keeping myself on track.

Blessings,

Bob

[Khristeeanos]

Even if you could use that argument and the thief was baptized ( certainly not by immersion as I doubt the Romans would take a condemned man off a cross so he could be baptized ), it would have happened after his salvation..  He repented and immediately Jesus forgave him and told him he'd be in paradise.

The man in question died before the commandment was given by Jesus.

It is simply un Biblical to say baptism saves a person - only Christ does.

Yea, it isn't like there is a verse in the Bible that says "baptism now saves you."

Oh wait! There is! I forgot.

If baptism could save, then Christ would not have had to die - yes ?

This is just one misrepresentation of the other position. It isn't baptism that saves, it is Christ that saves. He set the rules, and we must follow them in order to be saved.

It is simple as that. Faith in Christ saves. No faith = no salvation.

Jesus gave us a COMMAND that if someone wished to become a disciple, they will be baptized.

Also, if you click on the link I provided, you will see that people as early as 100 AD were intrepreting John 3:5 as meaning water baptism.

That may very well be, but it goes against everything Jesus taught ( both directly and through inspiration ).

So now you want me to believe that the real teaching was lost, immediately, even while the Apostles were still alive?

That is not something that I would be easily convinced of. But if you should care to try, I will search it out.

Show me one case in the Bible where someone repented and they were told they still were not saved and had to be baptized to complete the job.  You won't, but I suggest you look anyway since it will make you scour the scriptures ( I've learned a lot myself that way ).

I already posted it. Acts 22:16 is clear. Let us look at it for just a second:

In Acts 22:10, we read that Jesus told Saul that He was Jesus.

In Acts 22:11, we read Saul confess Him as Lord, which goes without saying that he believed in his heart.

Yet in Acts 22:16, we read that he must be baptized to wash away his sins.

Tell me, if baptism saves, do you need to be baptized every time you confess your sins?

Sorry, baptism doesn't save like you claim. It is part of the Gospel, but not the whole Gospel. This is another misrepresentation.

Did you read the URL I posted that proves that the Early Church taught that baptism was essential?

[Only4Him777]

Ok everyone... bottom line!

I think the question is: Will you still go to heaven if you have not been baptized by water?

YES OR NO???

Sorry, just wanted to cut through the tape and get to the point.

YSIC,

Alison :hug:

[Khristeeanos]

What does the Bible say?

Human statements are void of any meaning if they are not found in the Word of God.

When Jesus was being tempted by the devil, all three times He got His strength from quoting Scripture.

[BobTriez]

What does the Bible say?

Human statements are void of any meaning if they are not found in the Word of God.

When Jesus was being tempted by the devil, all three times He got His strength from quoting Scripture.

Romans 10:8-10

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 1 0For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Looks pretty clear to me! That verse does not make an ambiguous statement at all!

Would you please show me verse where it says you will not be saved until you are baptized...I've yet to find one....what I do find ( over and over ) is the statements like in Eph 2:8-9 & John 3:16. I see no conditions whatsoever attached to salvation - what I do find is that it is a "free gift". The very nature of free is you don't have to pay for it, nor do you earn it....it's given to you if you take it.

Sorry, but I simply have to disagree with you here. I find no basis in scripture where man can do something to earn salvation...I find lots of statements though that tell me there's nothing I can do.

Good topic and I've debated this before, and I need to emphasize that I'm in no way downplaying the significants of baptism....I just think you have the order of events mixed up.

In His service,

Bob

[Khristeeanos]

What does the Bible say?

Human statements are void of any meaning if they are not found in the Word of God.

When Jesus was being tempted by the devil, all three times He got His strength from quoting Scripture.

Romans 10:8-10

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 1 0For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Looks pretty clear to me! That verse does not make an ambiguous statement at all!

Who was that passage of Scripture written to?

It was written to already immersed Christians! That verse is not talking about how to become a Christian.

The Apostle Paul dealt with baptism 4 chapters earlier when he said:

Romans 6:3-5

You have been taught that when we were baptized in Christ Jesus we were baptized in his death; in other words, when we were baptized we went into the tomb with him and joined him in death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father

[BobTriez]

Who was that passage of Scripture written to?

It was written to already immersed Christians! That verse is not talking about how to become a Christian.

Why would those who are already saved need to be told what they've already done ?

Mixed up in what way? The Bible says that we should repent and be baptized to receive the forgiveness of sins

No it does not! In Mark 16:16 it says Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Lets break it apart....I agree - whoever believes & is baptized will indeed be saved. You could add as much to this list as you want - He who believes, is baptized, worships God, turns from their sinful ways, etc. will be saved. No argument.

But, look at the second part which speaks on the condition for condemnation - Whoever does not believe will be condemned. Not whoever does not believe and is not baptized....

I guess I'll kind of leave things at this - What do you depend on for your salvation ? If you go around thinking "I'm sure glad I got baptized or I'd go to hell", you would be in error. If you go around thinking "I'm sure glad Jesus died for me and gave me salvation since there is nothing I can do to earn it....and since He did that for me and I'm now saved, I'm baptized out of obedience", that would be the less self congratulatory response in my opinion.

Baptism is an act of obedience. So is keeping the law. But we are told over & over that following the law in not enough. The law is followed because we are saved, not to get saved. Same with obedience ( which baptism is a part of ).

To believe that baptism is what saves you is akin to saying an act of man - something YOU did saved you. The Bible does not teach that. It teaches that it's what HE did - lest any man should boast

See what I'm saying here or am I talking in circles ?

In His service,

Bob

Edited May 20, 2004 by BobTriez

[Miss Pryzma]

Ok from what I see so far is that it's just a comandment one should do - But if you don't it's not like you lose your salvation - Right? (Sorry just had to clarify that, so much to take in with all the dif. posts)

Can I ask why you haven't gotten baptized?

Debbie 

- Well I've moved around alot. And haven't really had a regular church. So Basicaly I've never really had a stable church or any church yet where I've felt comfortable being baptized in.

[BobTriez]

Ok from what I see so far is that it's just a comandment one should do - But if you don't it's not like you lose your salvation - Right? (Sorry just had to clarify that, so much to take in with all the dif. posts)

Can I ask why you haven't gotten baptized?

Debbie

[Khristeeanos]

Who was that passage of Scripture written to?

It was written to already immersed Christians! That verse is not talking about how to become a Christian.

Why would those who are already saved need to be told what they've already done ?

It is called continuing in the faith, or perseverance, or abiding in Christ. Call it what you want.

Mixed up in what way? The Bible says that we should repent and be baptized to receive the forgiveness of sins

No it does not!

Sure it does:

Acts 2:37-41

Hearing this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the apostles, 'What must we do, brothers?'

'You must repent,' Peter answered 'and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

They were convinced by his arguments, and they accepted what he said and were baptized. That very day about three thousand were added to their number.

I said we should repent, the Bible says we should repent

I said we should be baptized, the Bible says we should be baptized

I said we would receive the forgiveness of sins after we do that, the Bible say we will recieve the forgiveness of sins after we do that.

That is so simple, isn't it?

In Mark 16:16 it says Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Lets break it apart....I agree - whoever believes & is baptized will indeed be saved. 

Yes, so why debate this issue? That is what the Bible says!

You could add as much to this list as you want - He who believes, is baptized, worships God, turns from their sinful ways, etc. will be saved.  No argument.

It doesn't say any of that..that is adding to God's Word.

But, look at the second part which speaks on the condition for condemnation - Whoever does not believe will be condemned.   Not whoever does not believe and is not baptized....

It says you must believe and be baptized. That is the first and only statement that we need! It assumes the following:

All people who are to be baptized must first believe (no baptizing of infants or mentally disabled people)

Why make this so hard?

I guess I'll kind of leave things at this - What do you depend on for your salvation?

That is the whole question! That is the PERFECT question!!!

I used to believe in the church I went to, or in the doctrine I believed.

That was not enough. I never thought my salvation was never secure, even though I believed in Unconditional Eternal Security. After I realized that we are justified, saved, and kept by faith, and that faith is rejectable, it became obvious to me that I was trusting in man's doctrines instead of Jesus.

Now my security rests in Jesus and Jesus alone.

If you go around thinking "I'm sure glad I got baptized or I'd go to hell", you would be in error.

I dont' think that. I trust Jesus, not my efforts. My efforts are nothing more than my effort to thank Jesus for what He did. This is what some call faith. I would like to be included in that group.

If you go around thinking "I'm sure glad Jesus died for me and gave me salvation since there is nothing I can do to earn it....and since He did that for me and I'm now saved, I'm baptized out of obedience", that would be the less self congratulatory response in my opinion.

I am much closer to this position than the first.

Baptism is an act of obedience.  So is keeping the law.  But we are told over & over that following the law in not enough.  The law is followed because we are saved, not to get saved.  Same with obedience ( which baptism is a part of ).

To believe that baptism is what saves you is akin to saying an act of man - something YOU did saved you.  The Bible does not teach that.  It teaches that it's what HE did - lest any man should boast

See what I'm saying here or am I talking in circles ?

I see what you are saying and agree with you. However, how much effort does it take to submit to believers baptism?

Hardly any. Anybody can do that. There is a difference between works of merit done to earn salvation, and righteous acts of the saints, which please God and are part of a Biblically-defined saving faith.