Losing salvation

[Guest jackk]

I don't understand what they are talking about over here http://www.timebombers.com/forum/viewtopic...?t=1220&start=0

How can one lose their salvation if they are already saved? Could someone help me with this?

[godrulz]

Let us frame this ongoing debate. There is a camp in Christianity that believes in unconditional eternal security (once saved, always saved). These include Calvinists and the Reformed tradition. Monergism=salvation all of God. TULIP= total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverence of the saints. The question is if this is consistent with biblical revelation (I think not).

Free will theism (Open Theism, Arminianism, semi-pelagian, Wesleyan, etc.) believes that salvation is primarily a love relationship that must be freely entered into and maintained. We are conditionally secure in Christ if we continue to love, obey, and abide. Apostasy is a distinct possibility (cf. Judas, Charles Templeton= evangelist with Billy Graham who renounced his faith to his death). If someone decides to hate God, rebel, turn to evil, return to a false religion, etc. they are no longer in relationship with God and will not live with Him forever. This is not an instant thing but a process of falling away without repenting right to their last breath. Synergism= salvation involves God and man.

One root issue is confusion about the nature of sin and salvation. Sin is not a substance passed on from Adam. It is lawlessness, selfishness, or a wrong moral choice. Salvation is not a literal payment of a debt (Commercial Transaction Theory). This is a metaphor as is 'dead in sin'. Salvation is not a metaphysical change where God regenerates us physically against our will. Salvation is in the realm of morals and relationship which involves choice (will, intellect, emotions).

The grounds of salvation (reason for which) are God's grace and the person and work of Christ.

The conditions of salvation (not without which) are repentance, faith, and continuace in the faith.

There are Scriptures on both sides of the debate (see other threads here). I believe the OSAS verses are prooftexts that have reasonable counter answers. The warp and woof of Scripture seems to support conditional eternal security

i.e. it is theoretically possible for a dog to return to its vomit (we have genuine moral freedom to submit to Christ or rebel at any given point in our lives).

The danger of OSAS is a false sense of security for someone who made a commitment years ago, but has since returned to a godless life.

The danger of 'loosing salvation' is that some struggling believers do not know the grace, love, mercy, keeping power of God and live in fear rather than victory. We do not have to get resaved every time we sin (I Jn. 1:9=confess=forgive). The intimacy of the relationship is threatened, but not the commitment (cf. marriage, divorce, arguing, etc.).

Jude 24,25 To Him who is able to keep us from falling...and to present us blameless...to Him be glory forever....

A sound exegesis and look at both sides of the Scriptural evidence is Robert Shank's "Life in the Son: A study of the doctrine of perseverence" (He was a Baptist...they usually believe OSAS, but Shank refutes it).

[The Journey]

godrulz,

Thank you for the summation.

I think the confusion for this comes from the fact that the Bible suggests both positions.

And....we can never truly know another person's heart.

Thus, anecdotal evidence ("I knew this person once...") is a poor basis for an argument.

This is one debate in Christianity that I would not go to the stake for.

- Steve

[Catsmeow]

Godrulz hardly ever posts here. I wish he did more often...he really has a knack for explaining complex issues.

Thanks, bruh..

[godrulz]

Anecdotally, the OSAS camp assumes that a person was never saved if they become reprobate. This is certainly true for some, but not all individuals (mistaken identity...thought they were a Christian, but were not really one since they did not repent and trust Christ...it was an emotional decision without transformation). It is simplistic to think that it is impossible to despise God after tasting of His goodness. Man's heart is bent on selfishness and some people simply turn from the truth and believe the lie again.

I think the free will camp is a more reasonable, biblical position. While we are secure in Christ (nothing can separate us from the love of God), God has given us genuine freedom to do it our way or His way. Adam and Lucifer were both godly and innocent. They did not have a so-called nebulous sin nature, yet they sinned and fell. Adam likely returned to God, while Satan did not. Sin is a wrong moral choice. Salvation involves a willingness to live for God rather than ourselves. We cannot save ourselves. God initiates and we respond. If salvation is a love relationship and not a metaphysical, passive process, then there is an onus to work out our salvation and abide and grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ. It is hypocrisy and not reality to think we can be saved and then live like the devil with no difference in motive, heart, will, actions, and thoughts from the unbeliever.

[Catsmeow]

Godrulz: I come from the Reformers' camp but you sure do make a very convincing argument. You might convince me yet...

[Guest A Stone]

John 10:28, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER parish; neither shall ANYONE snatch them out of My hand."

Anyone means 'any person at all'. That includes me!

1 John 1:7-10, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

[jamie]

Once Saved, Always Saved IS WRONG

Proof from Romans to 2 Thessalonians

Romans 11:17-22 - And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. ~ Note: That, my friend, is conditional grace to us believing Gentiles. God just might cut you off. So I suggest that you continue in His goodness that led you to repentance (Rom. 2:4), and set you free from the bondage of sin (Rom.6:16-22); or else God just might cut you off from being in Christ. This passage shows the Christian's responsibility to remain in the Lord's goodness by standing by faith. You stand by faith certainly implies willful cooperation with God.

1 Corinthians 3:16,17 - Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. ~ Note: The word temple is a metaphor. It means the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ. So ourselves are the temple with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. To defile the temple means to lead away from the state of holiness in which you ought to abide. Then God will destroy you and you will perish. Some people want to think the word temple here is only about a church building. But the truth is that the word temple refers to the individual believer just like in 1 Corinthians 6:19. God does not destroy and to make perish a church building. The word states God will destroy him, not it. What, you think God is going to make the building catch on fire and burn it down to destroy it? No way is this about a building. It is about each of our own individual spiritual lives that God can make perish.

1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. ~ Note: Paul was talking about being disqualified to receive the prize of the imperishable crown (received in eternal life) as the 2 previous verses in the Bible explain. Instead of disqualified in the NKJV, the KJV has castaway. It also means reprobate, rejected, not standing the test, not approved, that which does not prove itself such as it ought. Other times the word (the Greek word adokimos) is used in the NT, it's talking about the lost (2 Cor. 13:5-7 , 2 Tim. 3:8 , Titus 1:16). So since Paul was aware of the danger of not being approved and becoming lost, we also need to be careful. Paul was being careful by when he disciplined himself and brought his body into subjection. That means he made himself to be a slave subject to stern and rigid discipline.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 - ... I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea... and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. ~ Note: The word for fall also means to fall under judgement, come under condemnation, to fall out, to fall from i.e. perish or be lost, to fall from a state of uprightness, come to an end, disappear, cease. That's definitely a loss of salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain. ~ Note: The word for if is a primary particle of CONDITIONALITY meaning if, whether. So clearly it makes being saved CONDITIONAL. The word for in vain has the idea of failure. It also means without a cause, inconsiderably, without success or effort. So obviously our believing in the word of God can fail. We must keep believing the word of God and hold on to that word by letting it be real in our lives.

Galatians 5:4,7 - You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law (O.T. law); you have fallen from grace... You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? ~ Note: The KJV has Christ is become of no effect unto you. The Greek words are apo and katargeo. Apo also means of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed. Katargeo also means destroy, loose, to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency, to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish. The word for fallen from also means to fall from a thing, to lose it, to perish, and to fall powerless, be without effect regarding of the divine promise of salvation. Obviously those who have fallen from grace were running well (the race of faith, 2 Tim. 4:7) and obeying the truth at some earlier time, but then they fell from grace.

Philippians 2:12,13 - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. ~ Note: The verb for work out also means to perform, accomplish, achieve, to fashion i.e. render one fit for a thing. Either way you look at it, this is something that we are told to do. While Christ purchased our salvation and offers it to us as a free gift, still there is a part that we must do if the salvation is to be completed in our case. The way trembling (tromos) is used with fear (phobos) here, it means used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religously does his utmost to fulfill his duty. This Scripture is a warning that salvation is never ultimately guaranteed, but must be worked out. If we are guaranteed entry into heaven, then it makes no sense for the need to work out our salvation. The loss of rewards doesn't produce fear and trembling, for how bad can heaven be? But this Scripture is not about rewards, because it says salvation. So hold on to your salvation through faith and work it out with fear and tremblng before our awesome God who is the One energizing us to respond to His grace.

Colossians 1:22,23 - ...to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight -- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel... ~ Note: This is another conditional verse with the phrase here IF indeed you continue. The word for continue also means to stay at or with, to tarry still, still to abide, remain, to persevere. This Scripture implies that one can stop having faith and move away from the truth of God's word. Don't stop! Stay strong in the faith. It is our responsibility to remain abiding in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 3:5 - For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain. ~ Note: The word for endure is forbear in the KJV. It also means to cover over with silence, to keep secret, to hide, conceal (of the errors and faults of others). So Paul couldn't keep quiet any longer. He had to ask them about their faith. The word for tempter and tempted also means to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin. I know God is not playing games with us by putting this in His word if it can never really happen. I also know through experience, and because it is right there in His word.

1 Thessalonians 3:8 - For now we live, if you stand fast in the Lord. ~ Note: Surely the word if makes this conditional. The word for stand fast also means to stand firm, to persevere, to persist, to keep one's standing. This is definitely our responsibility to be firm and persevere in the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (the return of Christ) will not come unless the falling away comes first... ~ Note: The falling away is not a so-called Pre-Trib rapture as some people think. The word for falling away also means to forsake, defection, apostasy. This is about apostate Christians who rebel, defect, and fall away from God. In the tribulation, when more severe persecution comes, many believers will grow cold and abandon the faith. Only those who continue until their end will be saved.

[Guest A Stone]

John 10:28, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER parish; neither shall ANYONE snatch them out of My hand."

Anyone means 'any person at all'.  That includes me!

1 John 1:7-10, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." 

JAMIE:

Do you believe these verses?

[Khristeeanos]

John 10:28, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER parish; neither shall ANYONE snatch them out of My hand."

Anyone means 'any person at all'. That includes me!

A Stone, nobody here will deny the security of the believer--what some will deny is the security of the ex-believer.

John 10:28 is a great promise of Jesus! But we must realize that we are dealing with a TRANSLATION of the Bible. No Bible is perfect because the original Greek had something like 11,000 words or so in the New Testament. Our English has about half of that.

There is a condition to be under the promise of John 10:28. It is found in John 10:27.

It is a present-tense hearing and following of Jesus Christ!

John 10:27

My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me.

I am by no means a Greek scholar, but all of the references I have read say that the verbs "listen" and "follow" are in what is called something like "aroist" tense--meaning a continuing-tense. A literal translation of John 10:27-28 would be something like:

My sheep are listening to my voice; I know them, and they are following me.  I am giving them eternal life...

To verify that it is possible for a disciple of Christ to turn away and follow him no longer (and thus to remove themselves from the protection and promise of John 10:28), please read:

John 6:66

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Now then,...

1 John 1:7-10, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Great passage! Just remember that the Apostle John tells born-again Christians that they need to continue to confess their sins to be forgiven of them.

God bless you.