Losing salvation

[Guest Calamity]

I have never said a word about works anywhere in this thread as having anything to do with salvation.

It's the same thing, Jake. Meeting certain conditions and requirements after we're saved in order to stay saved.

By your definition, you are working to gain salvation in the first place by saying that it is conditional upon your faith and repentance.

There really is no difference, is there?

Yes, there's a difference. Those are not physical actions. They're not works, they're matters of faith and of the heart.

[Khristeeanos]

Yes, there's a difference. Those are not physical actions. They're not works, they're matters of faith and of the heart.

You will have to explain this to me more.

I maintain that we are justified by faith, not by works.

We need to define (from the Bible): what is faith?

[Guest noelmaude]

This is what this thread reminds me of.

1 Corinthians 4:7-13

7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us--and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you!

9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.

10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored!

11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless.

12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure;

13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now

It's coming down real quick here people. You better wake up soon and come into the elects arena or you will be carried off to destruction.

Mt 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

By the way you are willing to excuse scripture as though it is not even there. Is it possible that you were already saved into a false christ and a false gospel? I wonder.

This is what those who worship the true king of heaven have to look forward to. Are you willing?

Revelation 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

When the LORD's two witnesses enter your congregation wearing sackcloth will you accept them or reject them?

The LORD is about to stand up and close the door.

[Guest noelmaude]

I maintain that we are justified by faith, not by works

. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent.

Jas 2:20

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

[Khristeeanos]

I maintain that we are justified by faith, not by works

. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent.

Jas 2:20

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Yes, but what is faith?

Works are evidence of a saving faith.

Revelation calls them "Righteous acts of the saints."

[Guest Calamity]

Yes, there's a difference. Those are not physical actions. They're not works, they're matters of faith and of the heart.

You will have to explain this to me more.

I maintain that we are justified by faith, not by works.

We need to define (from the Bible): what is faith?

Heb.11

[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Read the whole chapter. It's good.

And,

Rom. 3

[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

[27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom. 10

[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

[5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

[6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

[8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Gal. 3

[2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

[5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[15] Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Heb.12

[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I believe God gives us our faith, (the author of), and is also the finisher of it - because when we're not able or strong enough, He is. It also sounds like He gives some more than others:

Rom.12

[3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

You keep saying we're justified by faith, saved by Grace through faith, but then you add the part about "continuing, holding on, keeping it up", etc., and I don't believe it's up to us to hold on to our salvation once we have it. It's in the hands of the One who gave it to us, and who gave His life for us, not in our hands. And, the part about "jumping out of His hand", well, when it says we are sealed, we're sealed. I don't think we can break a seal that God makes. If we could, how strong would He be? He seals it, and we're able to break it? No, don't think so.

2Cor.1

[22] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph.1

[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph.4

[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It doesn't say "sealed until you mess up, or fall away, or walk away, or jump out", it says "sealed unto the day of redemption."

So, as far as I can tell, no matter how you phrase it, you're still saying we have to do works to keep our salvation. That's absolutely not true. :sleep:

[Guest noelmaude]

Faith is believing every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD. Trusting in HIM alone.

Mark 16:

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover

Edited May 24, 2004 by noelmaude

[Khristeeanos]

Calamity,

There are many, many passages dealing with faith that say that it is a requirement of man, God doesn't give each man a bit of saving faith, because that would mean that all will be saved.

God wants all to be saved, yet not all will!

Therefore, it is up to the human to meet the condition of faith.

If we are saved by our faith, and faith is rejectable, then we must assume that OSAS is not true!

1 Timothy 1:18-19

Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience.  Some have shipwrecked their faith.

Here we see that Timothy is exorted to not shipwreck his faith!

1 Timothy 5:11-15

As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list.  For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.  Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.  Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house.  And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.  So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.  Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

How can one turn away to follow Satan if they already belong to him?

How can one have salvation if they follow Satan?

[Guest noelmaude]

All of these scriptures are talking about the works that are evident of the SPIRIT of the LORD with all power. Not the works of man.

[Guest noelmaude]

If you would be part of the righteous acts of the saints those righteous acts have to come through you from the SPIRIT of the LORD. Get rid of everything that you are trusting in that is not HIM and It will come.