Losing salvation

[godrulz]

Josh: Your ideas are cogent and have clarity.

dwink: your verses are proof texts for osas, but are not balanced with the many others that show a conditionality to salvation and the possibility of apostasizing. Anecdotally, some high profile preachers of the gospel (e.g Charles Templeton, Billy Graham contemporary renounced their faith until death) have turned from God. It is simplistic to say all such people were never really saved.

We are secure IF we continue to abide in Him. There is no promised immunity if we go back to living as a God-hating sinner. Salvation is based on morals and relationship. By definition, this involves free will choice. God will never forsake us, but we can forsake Him (as seen by individuals and Israelites in the biblical record).

[BobTriez]

I believe that you can lose your salvation if you become a christian but then later ignore God and do tons of sinful acts or change to a different religion. We can only lose our salvation if we want to. We can't lose it accidentally, but if we are constantly involved in sin and we do not obey God, we can lose it.

Josh

So how many sins is "a ton" ? 5 ? 20 ? 100 ? I thought one sin is all it took to separate us from God, not "a ton"

One point that I always make that I have not yet is that nobody intrepretated the Scriptures to say OSAS until just a few hundred years ago.

OSAS is foreign to the Bible and all of church history until John Calvin, and OSAS was only there because he taught predetermined salvation.

Well, this was interpreted about 500 years ago, so I guess that was a few....but regardless of all that, why do you think that was ? The RCC had it's controlling hands all over the "church" and very few could read in those days; and of those that could, even fewer were permitted to read the Bible ( even some priests were denied the right to read the Bible ). They were only allowed to believe what they were told & not look at the Bible themselves.

That was the whole reason for the Reformation...it was a revolt against the apostasy of the RCC and it brought the truth back into view. And I wouldn't say OSAS is "foreign" to the Bible...it's all over the place. Paul taught it a lot in the book of Romans; but that wouldn't be a good revenue builder for the RCC would it ? If we were secure in our salvation, then they couldn't sell their indulgences any more...no wonder no one ever heard of this doctrine for so many years. Speaking of, salvation by grace wasn't heard of until the Reformation either....was it [ the Reformation ] such a bad thing ? No, it was a good thing! Just because it wasn't taught doesn't mean it wasn't true.

I think a lot of folks just do not understand what John Calvin taught and therefore make gross assumptions that simply are not true. Calvinists do not believe that they have a license to sin...on the contrary, many Calvinists I know are very conservative....so conservative you'd almost think they were trying to earn their way into heaven ( not all, but some ). It's simply generalization to believe that Calvinists believe that they can live their life any way they want to...it simply is not true.

It's also generalization that Armeneists believe that you need to live perfect in order to be saved and that salvation is by some work rather than by grace ( although some do )...but often, in order to prove their point, they'll say things like "you can choose to reject Jesus"....really; if Jesus says in John 10:28, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER parish; neither shall ANYONE snatch them out of My hand." I would hope that "anyone" includes me! I scare myself sometimes....honestly. If Jesus said "anyone", I would have to conclude that He means anyone - including me! I know that if it were not for Him, I'd be dead right now ( you can find my testimony in other threads, do a search of my name or PM me if you're really interested ) and I know without any doubt that it was Him who saved me - and He saved me from myself....make sense ?

At any rate, I know I'm saved....I also know I'm a sinner who is saved by grace...so I have to ask, at what point does one become "unsaved" to the point where His grace is no longer sufficient for my sins ?

In Him,

Bob

[dwinkjr]

IMHO... never

[dwinkjr]

but this is really a matter of opinion you can "interperit" the scripture to point either direction on this.... the bottom line is loves Jesus and repent of your sins

[Guest Called]

So how many sins is "a ton" ? 5 ? 20 ? 100 ? I thought one sin is all it took to separate us from God, not "a ton"

This has been said before, but I will repeat it again. We mean willful disobedience to the conviction of the Holy Spirit in ones life, turning one's back on God, living in deliberate sin. Not the occasional mess up where you seek forgiveness and repent. Hope this answers your question, even though I believe it was a rhetorical question!

Debbie

[Guest Called]

but this is really a matter of opinion you can "interperit" the scripture to point either direction on this.... the bottom line is loves Jesus and repent of your sins

Your right!

[dwinkjr]

So how many sins is "a ton" ? 5 ? 20 ? 100 ? I thought one sin is all it took to separate us from God, not "a ton"

This has been said before, but I will repeat it again. We mean willful disobedience to the conviction of the Holy Spirit in ones life, turning one's back on God, living in deliberate sin. Not the occasional mess up where you seek forgiveness and repent. Hope this answers your question, even though I believe it was a rhetorical question!

Debbie

my problem with the losing of slavation is... if Christ is a gracious host and died for our sins... and we lose his salvation by sin until we repent what if you sin in your dying moments? do you go to hell?

[godrulz]

One sin may hinder intimacy, but does not sever the relationship (hence the exhortation for Christians to confess their sins in I John). One loses their salvation (God alone knows where that point is crossed) when you persist in rejecting Christ as Lord and Savior to your death bed. It is possible to know God and later reject Him due to the nature of free will and relationship. You return to living for Self rather than God (ultimate choice) reflected in an ungodly life. cf. marriage, argument, divorce. Calvinism's TULIP is a false assumption and should not be assumed to be biblical.

[Guest Called]

Godrulz answered your question Dwink!

[dwinkjr]

One sin may hinder intimacy, but does not sever the relationship (hence the exhortation for Christians to confess their sins in I John). One loses their salvation (God alone knows where that point is crossed) when you persist in rejecting Christ as Lord and Savior to your death bed. It is possible to know God and later reject Him due to the nature of free will and relationship. You return to living for Self rather than God (ultimate choice) reflected in an ungodly life. cf. marriage, argument, divorce. Calvinism's TULIP is a false assumption and should not be assumed to be biblical.

hmm maybe ill just say i see your point... and agree to disagree

As i said b4 i have a hard time believing any individual who is truly saved would want to willfully sever that relationship