salvation is a process

[Thaddaeus]

OneLight,

A true believer will live in Christ. They may stumble, and fall, from time to time, but they, if they keep their faith in God, are still His.

Never said anything different. But a better way to say it is that a true believer is one who lives in Christ. A true believer is not compelled to remain except by his own desire. Sin separates anyone from God, and when a believer sins and does not seek repentance that sin remains with him. If it becomes habitual, that person is no longer a true believer, he has fallen. Repentance is the only way back.

We, being human, will never know what is in a persons heart

Why is it important to you that we know? The Gospel is written for us as individuals. It is being dirrected you at personally, not your neighbor. It is not for you to know his heart, but your own heart. You are going to be held accountable for what you do, not your neighbor. That is why we are to test our faith, to make sure we are still IN Christ.

I am sure that when I reach glory, there will be some there that I will wonder how did they make it, and then there will be those missing that I will wonder where they are. Only God knows the heart, my friend. I also believe that there are some that claim to be Christians that are not. Who are they??? I may never know in this life. These are the ones who I will wonder where they are ...

What has this do to with anything. It does not change the fact that we are saved through our faith. As the other poster mentioned, we are created for good works. Works that we are to do with God, just as Adam was doing before the fall. It is why we were created and why we were saved from the fall. To be in union and communion with God freely. We were created free and independent of God's will. Man must align his will with the will of God. That is why God has revealed Himself to us and shown us the way.

I posted the verses that pertained to a free salvation. Yes, if we walk in Him, laying down our lives daily so He can live in and through us, works will be there. As you mentioned, works do not save. They are the result of being in Him.

It is the other way around. If we are IN Him by faith, then the works give evidence of that faith. Without the works your faith is dead. That is why it states that we are being saved THROUGH our faith. It is the works that energize and show our faith. It is why if we no longer do the works, we no longer have the faith. The two cannot be separated.

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh,

That is not true. Salvation does not depend on your faith.

That depends on which aspect of salvation you are speaking about. If you are speaking of Christ's work on the Cross, then you would be correct. But we, as far as the op is concerned is not addressing Christ's work but man's response to that work.

Your faith is not what keeps you saved. Your statement puts the responsibility for salvation on the person and not on Jesus. The Bible NEVER teaches that salvation depends upon our faith. You making a subtle perversion of the text.

Again, see above.

The Bible says that with the heart man believeth unto righteousness. It is by faith that we take hold of God's promise of his gift of grace.

Now, you are on the correct subject. Man's response to Christ's saving Work, redeeming the world from destruction, death and sin. But God did this for a reason. To redeem the world from the power of Satan which he controls through death. The fall precluded God's intended purpose which is union and communion with man. That is completely based on man's willful response and we are justified by faith and then saved through that faith. The saving we are now addressing is the individual salvation of ones soul. Christ's work on the Cross made this possible because man lost life, due to the fall, which precluded man ever being in union for an eternity for which he was created.

You are essentially bypassing the whole purpose of our existance and why Christ needed to redeem the world from destruction, death and sin.

Jesus is the one who keeps us saved and He does so by fulfiilling the righteousness of the Law in us. God and alone is responsible for saving us and keeping us saved.

Well that depends again on just what aspect you are referencing.

If you think you play any role in the maintenance or security of your salvation, you are sorely mistaken. Salvatino is not loste today, regained tomorrow, lost the next day and so forth. That is just theological myth.

Again, depends on what you are referencing. But if you are speaking of the salvation of your soul, it is all about what you do. You will be judged on what you do. You were saved by Christ from destruction, death and sin, just so you could make that choice. Once made to remain IN Him. It is a relationship, not either an arrangement nor a ordained state. It is synergistic. If you doubt it can be, just reread the story of Adam. Somehow God forgot to save Adam. Might He not also forget about you? What makes you think He is keeping you? It seems it was all up to Adam to either remain faithful to God or to reject Him in taking the lie of Satan. I would imagine that you are no longer tempted in this life, you no longer sin, and are the perfection of humanity?

If you think it a myth, why would over half of the NT be addressing the fact that you can lose your faith which is losing your salvation. That is precisely what it is all about. We were not created animals, or trees or some inanimate object. We were created in His Image with the purpose to attain the likness of Him. We do that by working with Him to accomplish that task, the same thing Adam was doing before he was led astray. Are you immune to being led astray?

I find it just amazing that you can gloss over most of Scripture to come up with such statements. But it is probably due to the fact that you do not have a proper understanding of the creation itself, especially of man and the very unique purpose we as human beings have in this created order. You seem to have a somewhat misunderstanding of what Christ did and man's response to that great gift of mercy. Why He saved us in the first place.

[Guest shiloh357]

That depends on which aspect of salvation you are speaking about. If you are speaking of Christ's work on the Cross, then you would be correct. But we, as far as the op is concerned is not addressing Christ's work but man's response to that work.

It doesn't matter. Salvation never depends on us or our faith.

You were saved by Christ from destruction, death and sin, just so you could make that choice.

What you are teaching is not biblical Christianity. I was not saved to make a choice. I am saved because I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. He is the savior. He and I are not co-saviors.

It is a relationship, not either an arrangement nor a ordained state. It is synergistic.

It is a relationship, but it is not synergistic. It is not an equal partnership. Salvation = Jesus = zero. Your view puts you and Jesus on equal footing. God does not share credit with anyone. He does not share the glory with your for your salvation.

You can believe what you want. I, on the other hand am a Christian. Unlike you, I believe the Bible. That is what Christians do. You are teaching a false gospel based on man's effort and some mythical synergism between you and God.

We do that by working with Him to accomplish that task, the same thing Adam was doing before he was led astray. Are you immune to being led astray?

The only one led astray is you. You have abandoned the pure gospel of the New Testament for a different gospel.

[Thaddaeus]

shiloh357,

It doesn't matter. Salvation never depends on us or our faith.

then what do the following really mean?

"Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. They were broken off for UNBELIEF, but you stand by faith. Behold the kindness and severity of God --- to those who fell (unbelief!), severity; to you, God's kindness, if you CONTINUE in His kindness, otherwise you will ALSO BE CUT OFF! And if they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted in again..." Rom11:21-23

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve, YOUR minds should be led away from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2 Cor 11:3

What do you do with Jude's "KEEP YOURSELVES in GOD's love"? Jude 18-19.

Luke 12:46,47, The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master's will and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

John 14:21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

there are innumberable more verses that deal with belief and faith. They are synonomous in scripture. If faith is not accorded to man and it is not man's responsibility to keep that faith, then it falls upon God to keep man. Then it is also God that causes you to sin while He is holding you. Then it makes God the active agent in every man's life and not man. Thus in your view, who is being judged? Man or God?

Obviously also you believe that believers and unbelievers can be saved the same way, as Luke 12:46-47 attest.

1 Timothy 3:6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.

1 Timothy 5:12 Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.

Obviously here, condemnation does not mean hell or eternal separation from God. What does condemnation mean to you?

I don't see anything but faith and faith is charged to man. Can you find any text that refutes this understanding?

What you are teaching is not biblical Christianity. I was not saved to make a choice. I am saved because I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. He is the savior. He and I are not co-saviors.

It has been the understanding of Christianity for 2000 years. What constitutes the fall in your view? From what are you being saved?

Christianity is a life to be lived IN Christ. it is a free choice of every human. Paul makes this clear in Rom 1:18-23. Not a single soul will be able to give an excuse to God. Every man will be judged on what he did with the measure of Grace God imparted to him.

Christ was the Savior of the world not just you. He came to save sinners? Do you know of any who are not sinners? He reconciled the world to Himself, Col 1:15-20.

As in Adam all die, so also shall all those in Christ be made alive. I Cor 15:20-22. Who was not in Adam and did not need to be made alive? Who was not under the judgement of death, Gen 3:19?

I Cor 15:14-19 puts the whole plan of salvation squarely upon the resurrection. If not for the resurrection, your faith would even be in vain. Indeed, Christ arose from the grave and gave life, immortality to man. All men will be raised from the dead because Christ raised our mortal natures from death to life.

Faith is a choice of being with God for an eternity or apart from Him for an eternity. Man is free to choose either one and he is free to change his mind either way at any time. God created man free, a free moral agent, with a rational soul.

Obviously these Biblical truths are not in your Bible or you have never understood them.

It is a relationship, but it is not synergistic. It is not an equal partnership. Salvation = Jesus = zero. Your view puts you and Jesus on equal footing. God does not share credit with anyone. He does not share the glory with your for your salvation.

So, you don't believe human beings were created for a purpose other than simple existance, just like animals? Are we not to glorify God? How can man do that unless he is free? Can animals glorify God?

It puts the relationship squarely in man's hands, but then that is why and how God created us. Where does it say that man is not free, that man does not have choice? That man is not charged with belief, with faith, with keeping and remaining faithful. I don't recall any texts that refutes those I listed above. So Adam did not have a choice and he was not punished for his transgression? God did it? God is to blame?

You can believe what you want. I, on the other hand am a Christian. Unlike you, I believe the Bible. That is what Christians do. You are teaching a false gospel based on man's effort and some mythical synergism between you and God.

Well, lets see if you can back that up. Christianity has been in existance for 2000 years. What historical evidence that any Christian has believed as you have during that time?

It is true that I can believe what I want. But I have chosen what all Christians have always believed from the beginning. It has not ever been changed. But I await your evidence to the contrary.

The only one led astray is you. You have abandoned the pure gospel of the New Testament for a different gospel.

Great assertion, but can you show any evidence that it might be true?

[deut31:12]

Today, Eph 2:8,9 is being used incorrectly so many times to both trump over and countermand man's need for obedience to God's words.

I would be careful making so many broad generalizations unless you can prove them.

I have proven them many times with scriptural support.

[deut31:12]

It is a relationship, but it is not synergistic. It is not an equal partnership. Salvation + Jesus = zero. Your view puts you and Jesus on equal footing. God does not share credit with anyone. He does not share the glory with your for your salvation.

It is not about sharing credit with anyone. It is very interesting how that all over the Old Testament we find God commanding man's obedience to his commandments and all over the New Testament Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the authors, who were inspired by God, exhorting obedience and following it up with this verse:

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; - Hebrews 5:9

and people will still say that our obedience has no bearing on our salvation.

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: - Romans 1:5

Paul even stipulates that he received grace and apostleship for his obedience. If there is nothing in Christianity that is a requirement of man then why did Paul write that? Along with, why is Jesus the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey him?

Our whole purpose for existing is to glorify God and we do that by being obedient to him like Jesus did. If we choose not to obey God through the words of his dear son then we are choosing to live in sin. In this life we are doing one of two things, either glorifying God by doing his will or living our own personal lives filled with sin. Now, which do you think God would prefer?

[Guest shiloh357]

Today, Eph 2:8,9 is being used incorrectly so many times to both trump over and countermand man's need for obedience to God's words.

I would be careful making so many broad generalizations unless you can prove them.

I have proven them many times with scriptural support.

No, you don't understand. I am talking about your broad generalizations about people. You are talking about how many people are using Eph. 2:8,9 and that they ignore v. 10. That would require you to have intimate knowledge about a good many people and it would require you to have a certain qualification to judge their heart motives. Unless you can provide some evidence that allows you to cast such blanket judgments over a broad number of people, your statement lacks any truth.

[Guest shiloh357]

It is not about sharing credit with anyone.

It is ALL about sharing credit. God NEVER does anything except that He gets all of the glory. He demands 100% of the glory for everything. God waited until Abraham and Sarah were physically incapable of having children. He waited until the children of Israel were helpless before He rescued them from slavery. He would not allow Israel to have chariots and horses, which put them at a military disadvantage before their enemies. God, in all those things wanted to make sure that everything He did was done in such a fashion that those people involved were inacapble of either gaining the end result under their own strength, or even helping God out.

When God made His eternal covenant with Abraham (Gen. 15), he did not allow Abraham to walk between the halves as a covenant partner. He put Abraham into a deep sleep and walked alone between the halves signifying that the responsibility for the covenant rested upon God and God alone. Abraham's actions had no bearing on the fulfillment of the covenant.

It is very interesting how that all over the Old Testament we find God commanding man's obedience to his commandments and all over the New Testament Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the authors, who were inspired by God, exhorting obedience and following it up with this verse:

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; - Hebrews 5:9

and people will still say that our obedience has no bearing on our salvation.

You seem to forget that when God saved Israel from slavery by the blood of the Passover lamb (a type of our salvation from sin through the blood of Christ the final Passover Lamb), He did not say, I will save you if you keep my laws. He did not demand obedience to the law as condition for salvation. He gave them the law AFTER they were saved. The law is for the redeemed community to obey as a response to salvation, not as a means of gaining salvation. Obedience is ALWAYS a response to God's grace and NEVER the catalyst for it, or the means of procuring that grace. If it were, grace would cease to exist. Grace is always a gift; it is never something that can be earned.

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: - Romans 1:5

Paul even stipulates that he received grace and apostleship for his obedience. If there is nothing in Christianity that is a requirement of man then why did Paul write that? Along with, why is Jesus the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey him?

Yes, it says we have recieved grace FOR obedience. It does not say we receivd grace on the condition of or as a result of, obedience. Paul is not talking about saving grace, but rather grace as the ability to be obedient.

That is the problem with grabbing one verse from here or there and trying to make a doctrine out of it. It is called prooftexting and requires you to ignore the context and the line of thought and impose your views on to the passage. You clearly did not even consider the context to see your view lined up with the line of thought which Paul was operaing under.

You are trying to make salvation completely conditional upon obedience, which demonstrates that you dont' really understand the concept of grace.

Our whole purpose for existing is to glorify God and we do that by being obedient to him like Jesus did.

That is true, but God is NOT glorified if your obedience plays a role in how you get saved. If it does, then it means that the blood of Jesus is not alone sufficient for salvation.

If we choose not to obey God through the words of his dear son then we are choosing to live in sin. In this life we are doing one of two things, either glorifying God by doing his will or living our own personal lives filled with sin. Now, which do you think God would prefer?

You are confusing issues.

The problem here is that you seem to assume that if we are not trying work in order to maintain our salvation that we are "anti-works." No one on my side of the fence is saying that. I am all for holy living, but I do not live in holiness in order for salvation. I don't have to do that. My salvation is already bought and paid for. Holiness, on my part is a response to that gift which I have received. It is what I do because I have Holy Spirit living in me and He empowers me to live out the salvation I have received. I am not trying to maintatain or secure my salvation. I was not good enough to earn it, and I am not good enough keep it.

Using good works as a condition for salvation is "religion." It is not Christianity. Those who are doing good works in order to gain, maintain or otherwise secure their salvation are placing their faith in something other than Jesus and that is not simply not in line with biblical Christianity.

Salvation is based on Jesus keeping me, not me keeping myself. Trying to make salvation a partnership between steals glory from God by means of a false assumption about the value of my works. In truth is just the arrogance of the vanity of man to assume that a person has anything of value to contribute to salvation.

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh357,

That is true, but God is NOT glorified if your obedience plays a role in how you get saved. If it does, then it means that the blood of Jesus is not alone sufficient for salvation.

These are two very distinct different aspects of the whole plan of salvation.

the latter to which you refer is Christ's work on the Cross. Man has absolutely nothing to do with this aspect of his salvation. God actually imposed it upon His entire created order, not just mankind. Christ redeeemed the world from destruction, death and sin. Everything and everyone has already been saved, redeemed, reconciled to God by His death and resurrection. Man did not initiate it, cannot contribute to it, cannot even deny it, and faith has nothing to do with it. It is the Free Gift God grants to all men.

Now, because He saved the world, redeemed mankind from death, from the bondage to death and sin, God again can have the union and communion for which He created man. Our union and communion with God is what was lost DUE TO THE FALL. It is not the fall itself.

Thus, what is understood as the salvation of your personal soul depends SOLELY, and ONLY upon you. God offers to every single human being the privilege to enter into a relationship with Him. You can do ONLY one of two things, either join with Him, or reject Him. You are completely free to do this at any time in your earthly life and you can change from one to the other at your will. God created man free, just so man could freely love, worship, obey, work with Him in this created order. It has nothing to do with the work of Christ on the Cross. It has nothing to contribute toward that work, and does no diminish Christ's Work in the least. It has all to do with why you were created, the very purpose of your existance. That existance is what was saved due the the fall, or the sin of Adam which permitted Satan to have dominion over man through the power of death. Christ is the TOTAL victory over death, for man and for the world. Satan has already been defeated and he knows it.

No one on my side of the fence is saying that. I am all for holy living, but I do not live in holiness in order for salvation.

Then you are not being saved. It is all about being faithful. Your very soul rests on you remaining faithful, remaining obedient. Without it you have freely left the fold. God works with us THROUGH OUR FAITH. I Pet 1:3-5.

Salvation is based on Jesus keeping me, not me keeping myself. Trying to make salvation a partnership between steals glory from God by means of a false assumption about the value of my works. In truth is just the arrogance of the vanity of man to assume that a person has anything of value to contribute to salvation.

Most of the Bible directly opposes such a view. The entire Book of James is categorically opposed to such a view. James is the closest we have of actually having a manual for Christian living. It is how we aught to live in order to be saved.

But, remember this has nothing to do directly with what Christ did, which is overcome the fall for everyone, including the world itself. Col 1:15-20.

[EricH]

Most of the Bible directly opposes such a view. The entire Book of James is categorically opposed to such a view. James is the closest we have of actually having a manual for Christian living. It is how we aught to live in order to be saved.

But, remember this has nothing to do directly with what Christ did, which is overcome the fall for everyone, including the world itself. Col 1:15-20.

No, James is a manual on how we are to live as a result of being saved (Eph. 2:8-10)