Sinlessness

[Catsmeow]

Dime: All I know is I sure wouldn't want to be a part of your "ministries"...you'd put burdens on people that nobody could possibly bear.

I have an awesome, loving heavenly Father. When His Spirit gently, lovingly shows me where I'm wrong, I am eager to correct it and change my ways.

Is it just possible ...maybe, that you don't know all of the ways YOU sin? Hm?

Maybe you sin and don't realize it? If you have all knowledge and are omniscient, then you are aware of all of your sins....BTW, pride is a sin. Are you prideful?

See, I KNOW I sin. I don't "practice" sin but I've definitely had a day or two when the heat and traffic got to me and I lost my patience. I know I've gone over the speed limit on ocassion.

I know I've been snippy with my husband. I know I've had "bad dreams" that weren't godly...*(although you can't control dreams that I know of).

I know I am imperfect. If you put yourself on the same level as Christ, you definitely are deluded.

Truth be told...and oh, I hope you read this....the longer you are a Christian, the more you realize just HOW MUCH you fall short of God's glory and how absolutely needy we are for Christ's blood.

Your sinlessness does not come from self-righteous legalism; it comes from walking in love with the Savior.

If that doesn't sink in, nothing will.

[Catsmeow]

I have seen a lot of opinions and misrepresentations of Scripture.

Now I will tell you the TRUTH.

John 8:34

I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin

It is you who misrepresent and skew scripture without rightly dividing the Word of God. You misrepresent it by taking this one verse out of context.

Let's look at ALL of the scripture IN CONTEXT:

John 8:31-37

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, 'You will be made free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Once again, I've proved my point. You have not. We abide in Christ daily and He alone, with the power of the Holy Spirit abides in us to guide us into all righteousness. Our "sinlessness" ...our righteousness comes from Christ alone.

You know this.

You took the verse WAY out of context. You appear to have a hang up on legalism.

When we love the Lord, our desire to obey Him comes naturally. We are called, "children" because we are continually growing and maturing. We are being transformed...which is a "PROCESS"..not a single act.

Every day we get up out of the bed we have to depend on His guidance to help us keep our cool or do what is right.

You don't just say the "sinner's prayer" and "PRESTO!" you're suddenly perfect. No chance.

It's a process of growth much as children grow and learn.

The "practice" of sin is very different from ever sinning. So maybe it would help if you didn't skew scripture out of context and try to make it fit some mold.

YOU DO SIN....whether you admit it or not. You won't convince too many people that you've "arrived perfection".

You're perfection is hidden in Christ if you're a Christian. You, in and of yourself cannot possibly be perfect.

YOU ARE NOT PERFECT: (apart from being hidden in Christ's perfection)

1 Corinthians 13:9-13

9 The reason is that our knowledge and our ability to prophesy are not perfect. 10 But when perfection comes, the things that are not perfect will end. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I stopped those childish ways. 12 It is the same with us. Now we see a dim reflection, as if we were looking into a mirror, but then we shall see clearly. Now I know only a part, but then I will know fully, as God has known me.

If you honestly believe you have all knowledge and have attained perfection (apart from Christ's perfection), you're deluded.

You cannot live a perfect life but you can grow and mature in Christ.

I noticed you can't seem to refute items individually..but you read everyone's timely posts to help you and still refuse to see.

It would seem you are content in delighting in your "perfection". If that perfection is apart from Christ's perfection, you're under the Law and deluded.

[Guest mlady1970]

Dime: All I know is I sure wouldn't want to be a part of your "ministries"...you'd put burdens on people that nobody could possibly bear.

I have an awesome, loving heavenly Father. When His Spirit gently, lovingly shows me where I'm wrong, I am eager to correct it and change my ways.

Is it just possible ...maybe, that you don't know all of the ways YOU sin? Hm?

Maybe you sin and don't realize it? If you have all knowledge and are omniscient, then you are aware of all of your sins....BTW, pride is a sin. Are you prideful?

See, I KNOW I sin. I don't "practice" sin but I've definitely had a day or two when the heat and traffic got to me and I lost my patience. I know I've gone over the speed limit on ocassion.

I know I've been snippy with my husband. I know I've had "bad dreams" that weren't godly...*(although you can't control dreams that I know of).

I know I am imperfect. If you put yourself on the same level as Christ, you definitely are deluded.

Truth be told...and oh, I hope you read this....the longer you are a Christian, the more you realize just HOW MUCH you fall short of God's glory and how absolutely needy we are for Christ's blood.

Your sinlessness does not come from self-righteous legalism; it comes from walking in love with the Savior.

If that doesn't sink in, nothing will.

Amen, And Again I Say Amen

Catsmeow, I Agree Totally 100% with what you said

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[Catsmeow]

These people just don't "get it". We are called, "little children" for a very good reason.

Children are not mature. Our goal is to mature but I honestly don't think I've met anyone who has reached that level.

I dunno, Dr. Luke (Dave) comes real close...but very few people I know have advanced to that point.

Jesus gave himself 100% to the Father. Can I say I have? NO! I'm working on it though...and we're making steady progress.

Anything short of perfection would be sin, (We all fall short of the glory of God) and the only "perfection" I know is Christ's. His righteousness alone is imputed to my account and I am learning to be molded into His likeness but I sure haven't arrived yet.

I do believe anyone who thinks "they've arrived and are perfect" in their fleshly bodies are dreamers.

It's sad. There is but one perfect Person...the Lord Jesus Christ. He and He alone is perfect.

[Guest Called]

The fact that she stated "she has not sinned" has made her a sinner because God says all have sinned so she's calling God a liar. She's acting in rebellion against Him, she hasn't an accurate view of herself and it also shows pride. I don't mean to be so harsh but unless you pray about this and ask God to grant you a true understanding of this subject, then He will deal much more harshly with you. I'm not pointing fingers believe me, we are all learning here - but think about what you're implying......that you are sinless, perfect, like God. You have elevated yourself above all man deeming yourself equal to God. You are denying the battle between flesh and spirit. You no longer need Christ's forgiveness because you don't sin supposedly. That also means you are not confessing anything to Him because in your mind yoiu don't sin. Can't you see how dangerous this is? Please seek God on this.

Wow, you just proceeded to tell me how I think, how I act and how I live. That is very harsh! Amazing! I didn't say I never sin, I did say I hadn't sinned that day, but I said I had in the past week. I DID NOT SAY I WAS SINLESS,PERFECT OR LIKE GOD! You just put those words in my mouth.

You have elevated yourself above all man deeming yourself equal to God

Because someone says they believe they can live a holy life, doesn't mean they are saying they are like God. God NEVER sinned, we all have, but it doesn't mean we have to keep sinning. God wants us to strive to be holy and perfect, why else would he have told us to? I really don't think God wants us to sin, it has been made perfectly clear throughout the whole Bible.

BTW, I have sought God on this and many other things. You just started spouting off stuff with no information. I am sure God wants us to live a pitiful little Christian existence where we can't overcome this world. Please! For the record, I am not proud, a liar nor do I live in rebellion. I am completely submitted to God and and humbled by his grace and mercy. I do strive everyday to be just like Jesus, I guess some consider that rebellion.

Everyone acts like they have no choice, that they can't help but sin. Man, get real! Follow Christ completely, give your all to him, throw out anything of this world, get filled with the Holy Ghost, live in a continual state of prayer, die to self, carry your cross and go out and fulfill the great commission! Christians now accept sin and even become used to it and I refuse to do that. I will strive to not sin until the day I die and through Gods grace and power that lives in me, I hope I can stand in front of him one day and not be ashamed of how I lived.

This may have come across rudely, but I get defensive when people start judging me with no logical basis. Lets agree to disagree.

Debbie

Edited May 26, 2004 by Called

[Guest Called]

QUOTE (Called @ May 24 2004, 10:32 AM)

QUOTE 

Do you firmly believe and hold to the fact that you are without sin ?

I will answer you Bob. I am presently at this exact moment without sin (I haven't sinned today). Have I messed up in the past week, sure, have I repented, yes. Will I ever get to the point in my Christian walk where I don't sin, I hope so. Spiritually I am not there yet, but through the Holy Spirit's conviction and power in my life, I believe one day I can be. Be ye perfect.., God said it, I believe it.

Debbie 

Hi'ya Debbie!

I know where you stand, and you know where I stand so there's little point in going 'round & 'round on this one again  However, you say you have not sinned yet today....right ? While you may not have committed any sins, have you omitted anything you should have done but did not ? Are you absolutely positive that you have lived up to the 100 % perfect potential that God requires of you ?

It's often easy to overlook these acts of omission because they are generally passive in nature; but we need to remember that failure to act or doing something we are supposed to do is just as much a sin as an act of commission ( an active form of sin ).

Kick that one around in your head for awhile, and see if you can still honestly answer my question with a "yes, I have not sinned yet today". I'd suspect that you would be deceiving yourself if you still think you're without sin.

And would someone please explain this verse to me - because it seems so crystal clear to me....

1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hey Bob! Man, I leave this thread for a little while and people start insulting me! HA! Anyway, I appreciate your points and they are valid. I do understand the sin of omission. However, I can't answer your question cause that was a couple days ago, so I don't remember! Once I turned 30 my memory went right out the window! he he!

Bob, I don't understand why some on this thread think that being holy is living in denial, I just don't get it. Maybe it is easier to say I sin, cause it gives me an excuse when I do sin.

I have not said I never sin, but I have said that I believe we can get to a point in our spiritual walk that we won't sin or if we do it will be very rarely(as seen on my above posts). Maybe if Christians realized the seriousness of sin they would try harder to not do it. Sin is a choice, plain and simple. You either choose to sin or not to sin. I am gonna do my best to choose not to sin! The devil is a loser and I will not give him any credit! I better stop or I am gonna start preaching. I thank you for your insight as always! I hope this clears it up, because evidentally alot of people on this thread are confused about what I have said.

Debbie

[Catsmeow]

Truth be told we are children. We are learning to be like Jesus. I marvel if someone ever says they've got it down.

Called, I was speaking to the Dimeministries folks...for what it's worth.

I agree with you; we should always strive to be more like Jesus but I don't think any of us have arrived.

We could probably all do more than we do; give more than we give and achieve a higher level of glory in our walk ...but this takes time, work and effort on our part and God knows we are children growing and maturing.

[keslc]

I agree with you dimeministries. 

Bob and I got into this debate on the other thread, so I won't say much, cause this is definitely a "can of worms",  but I do want to say one thing. 

The Bible says in Romans 3:23, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  I think we will have no disagreements there.  I have sinned, you have sinned, we all have sinned!  That is why Jesus died for us.  What my question is, is where does it say we have to keep on sinning once we receive Jesus? Romans 3:23 says all HAVE SINNED, not DO sin.  It is in the past tense.  Even if we had just committed one sin, we would have been in need of a Savior.

I will repeat what I said in the other thread. It is in Hebrews 10:14, "For by that one offering he perfected forever all those whom he is making holy." 

We have been made perfect, yet we are being made holy.  Through His death and resurrection. Christ, once for all, made his believers perfect in God's sight.  At the same time He is making them holy (progressively cleansed, set apart for his special use) in their daily pilgrimage here.

Respectfully, if you say you can live above sin, then you are saying you are like God

Because someone says they believe they can live a holy life, doesn't mean they are saying they are like God. God NEVER sinned, we all have, but it doesn't mean we have to keep sinning. God wants us to strive to be holy and perfect, why else would he have told us to? I really don't think God wants us to sin, it has been made perfectly clear throughout the whole Bible.

Exactly what I was going to say, Called! (just to be clear, the parts in bold here!)

Edited June 2, 2004 by keslc

[Guest Called]

Keslc- well you are in the minority with me and dimeministries. WELCOME!

[Catsmeow]

The confusion here lies in whether you can live a holy life on your own merit or if you are utterly and literally dependent upon Christ Jesus to get you through each and every day.

Also, would you say you NEVER get angry, upset or irritated, despite illness, traffic, or stress?

It depends on whether we're talking about "big sins" like homosexuality, fornication, theft, gossip, murder, et al...

Or...sins of ommission, (where you fail to do all that God calls you to do) or you lose your temper or act unkindly or miss an opportunity to witness, etc.

I honestly don't know anyone who's walk is flawless.

Sinlessness is a big, big word...and the only shoes big enough for them is Jesus.

I honestly believe that the more a believer matures, the MORE they realize how far we fall short of God's perfection and sinlessness.

Can we live holy lives? Yes. I agree with that.

Can we be totally sinless? Well, do you have children? Are they perfect? Be honest.

Part of our humanity is our flesh and I hope everyone knows that sin in inherent in our nature but we can have victory ONLY IN CHRIST...and not of our own doing.

If you say you are made perfect in CHRIST, I can say, "Amen!" to that.

If you are perfect in and of your own doing, I'd say you need pastoral council.