OSAS, The Whole Story

[Guest shiloh357]

Let's look at these verses one at a time.

Verse 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

These people were definitely saved, because they did not just know about Jesus, but they had escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of Christ. The scripture says that after they were saved if they return to their sin they are worse off than from the beginning. Under the false teaching of Eternal Security this is impossible. They could not be worse off than before they were saved because they would still be saved and on their way to Heaven. Yet scripture says they are worse off than before they were saved. So who is right? God or the promoters of eternal Security?

Verse 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Once again you cannot be better off never being saved than backslidden if Eternal Security was true. Before they were saved they were on their way to hell, and you can not be better off going to Hell than Heaven. Scripture says people that turn from their faith are worse off than those that have never been saved at all. People that turn from God after salvation will not only go to hell but they will receive even worse punishment than those that never accept Jesus at all.

The problem still exists that a dog will return to its vomit becasue that is what dogs do. Those who return to their old life, were never changed. They are still sinners with out Christ.

You are assuming that this is talking about saved people, but that is not what the passage is talking about. Peter in chapter 2 is talking about false prophets. These are not people who are saved and lost it. You need to examine the context and learn how to study Scripture.

This is why prooftexting is so dangerous. people just grab a verse or two and assign it the values they want it to have. That is what you have done here.

You can deny it all you want this is a metaphor for backsliders returning to sin after salvation. That is why it say like. It doesn't say the backslider is a dog or a pig it says it is ''like'' a dog or pig, and yes the pig wash change it was washed clean. Just as we are when we receive Christ but it went back to the mud as the backslider goes back to his sin.

I am sorry, but you are misreading the metaphor. Peter is not talking about backsliders. He is talking about false prophets and he is using the dog and the pig as metaphors because the false prophet will always return to his sin. They can emulate religion for a time, but in the end, they will show what they truly are by returning to and living within the framework of their sin.

YOU are assigning a false value to this passage and are ignoring the context and the intent of the author and this completely invalidates your treatment of the passage. All you have to do is begin at verse one and follow the line of thought and you will see that Peter is costantly referencing false prophets.

You need to stop interpreting the Bible according to your agenda, and let the Bible speak for itself.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Bible clearly say that those that were one saved can turn away. I have given scriptures that show so already. Why would anyone ignore those verses and keep believing something that is contrary to God's word?

No, you have shown verses YOU believe claim that one is saved but can turn away. I have shown in just one of your passages, that you are ripping verses out of their natural context and violating every rule of interpretation to force the Bible to fit your belief.

If salvation depends on you doing the right thing, then you don't really need Jesus. Ultimately, if we follow your view, it is YOU who is saving yourself by doing the right thing. Following your view to its logical conclusion, salvation is not something God gets the glory for, because it is based on what you do or don't do.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, why is it that you try and exlain away the metaphor in 2nd Pet 2:22 and also ignore the other verses I a have given. Explain to me what these scriptures are referring to other than the ability for believers to go back into sin after salvation.

Cause I really don't have time to go through and exegete them all in one sitting. I simply picked a good example of one passage and demonstrated why it doesn't speak of the issue of losing salvation. It is talking about false prophets, but people like you don't care about anything other than just grabbing and isolating certain passages and verses and ignoring the issue they were originally meant to address.

The fact is you really don't know how to handle the Bible and it shows in how you ignore the most basic rules interpretation. We don't treat other books with the kind of reckless, irresponsible interpretations we subject the Bible to.

You are making the same classic mistakes I see made this type of discussion. It's just same recycled nonsense that pops up on this board about every 4 to 6 months or so.

[Guest shiloh357]

So when it say those that were grafted into the good olive tree will be cut off that was referring to false prophets,hmmm.

(sigh) No, that is the 2 Peter 2. passage. The one in Romans 11 is talking about Gentiles being grafted into Israel. "Grafted in" does not mean "saved." Please learn biblical terminology before presuming to use it.

and when it says only if we continue in the faith we will be presented to God unblameable that was referring to false prophets only,hmmmm. I think you have gone way off base trying to hold on to your belief in the face of the truth of scripture and then accuse me of not being able to handle the Bible it is obvious to anyone that those verses have nothing at all to do with false prophets.

I was referencing ONE passage. I was not addressing the other passages. Maybe you should take some classes in reading comprehension.

Ignoring the truth of scripture does not make it any less true.

Disagreeing with YOU does not mean I am ignoring Scripture. You need to come to grips with the fact that you simply don't have the last word on this issue.

[Thaddaeus]

Ezekiel33

An excellent expostion of the topic. I agree with you completely.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Sep 1 2008, 09:47 PM)

QUOTE

So when it say those that were grafted into the good olive tree will be cut off that was referring to false prophets,hmmm.

(sigh) No, that is the 2 Peter 2. passage. The one in Romans 11 is talking about Gentiles being grafted into Israel. "Grafted in" does not mean "saved." Please learn biblical terminology before presuming to use it.

Only the believing gentile were grafted in and it clearly says that if they did not continue in God's goodness they would be cut off. Do you think God is going to Cut off all Gentile but you do not believe that an individual can backslide,that is ironic.

Actually, the part about not continuing in God's goodness has to do with boasting against the natural branches. It had nothing to do with living in immorality.

Romans 11 is talking about the relationship of Jews and Gentiles in the Kingdom of God. It is not a treastise on salvation.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Sep 1 2008, 09:47 PM)

QUOTE

and when it says only if we continue in the faith we will be presented to God unblameable that was referring to false prophets only,hmmmm. I think you have gone way off base trying to hold on to your belief in the face of the truth of scripture and then accuse me of not being able to handle the Bible it is obvious to anyone that those verses have nothing at all to do with false prophets.

I was referencing ONE passage. I was not addressing the other passages. Maybe you should take some classes in reading comprehension.

Then stop focusing on 1 passage and try and explain away Colossians 1:21-23 and why God say we will be presented to Him unblameable only IF we do not turn away from the faith, when you believe we cannot turn away?

The word "IF" is better translated as "since." It is not teaching that salvation is conditional. It actually expresses Paul's certainty that they would continue in the faith.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Sep 1 2008, 09:47 PM)

QUOTE

Ignoring the truth of scripture does not make it any less true.

Disagreeing with YOU does not mean I am ignoring Scripture. You need to come to grips with the fact that you simply don't have the last word on this issue.

No ignoring scriptures because that do not fit your belief is ignoring scripture. Agreeing or disagreeing with me is irrelevant.

You simply drip wth arrogance. You seem to be one of those who thinks their views are on par with the Word of God itsef, and thus to disaree with you is to disagree with the Bible. I have got news for you, you have not cornered the market on the Bible.

[OneLight]

I believe there is a difference in those who turn totally away from God and those who wander off the path. Those who turn totally away from God seem to only of had a "head" salvation and not one of the heart. Those who wander from the path can be called back and will listen to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Still, we do not know the heart of any one. Only God knows what is in a mans heart.

[nikos]

I have listed just seven verses that are very good examples of being able to give up your eternal salvation.

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, "I have come to know Him", and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

1 Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times; they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

As you can see there are a great many verses in the Bible that refer to the believer being able to voluntarily walk away from the Lord, to take up once again that sinful life, and become unsaved. However I think the verse that hits home the hardest is the following.

1 Chronicles 28:9 "If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever

[Guest shiloh357]

WOW, you have really went over the deep end this time shiloh, we will not be cut off for immorallity but for being boastful, that is still grafted in then cut off.

The problem is still with you. You are making the mistake of thinking that "grafting in" is equivalent to "being saved." Because grafting in is not "salvation," being "cut off" in that context is not "losing salvation."

If doesn't mean if, it means ''since'' and Paul told them ''IF'' they continue in the faith they will be presented unblameable to God to show them his certainty that they would.

The construction in Greek from the standpoint of mood and tense simply means that Paul is not wondering if they will continue, but he is absolutely certain they will continue in the faith.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (ezekiel33 @ Sep 1 2008, 11:04 PM)

1st Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, that when I have preached to others, I myself might be a castaway.

Paul is talking about being disqualifed for service. Paul is talking about his preaching be made null and of no effect by poor conduct.

Salvation is not a prize we earn. The Bible says that salvation is a free gift.