come out of her my people

[other one]

CHAPTER 18

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.(KJV)

Many people on this board believe that the US may be Mystery Babylon, and I can see how this could be....

My question is, "Is this a physical or spiritual order given to the people during the end times?"

[Guest yod]

I dont' see why it couldn't be both? And those maybe not the same?

the root word Babel literally means confusion.

I think in this case it is speaking of Babylon as a state of confusion...as a metaphor for the worldly system. It can be applied that way even if it isn't the most accurate interpretation.

But judgement will come on this worldly system and all nations who have drunk of her wine will be judged.

[Adstar]

I would lean toward a physical interpretation. Because He is talking to His people. If they are His people then Spiritually they are with Him already.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Brad]

Jerusalem was Babylon and was also called Sodom and Egypt in Rev.11. The order was phsical. The early Church was warned to flee Jerusalem when they saw the Roman armies surrounding their city. Jerusalem was at war with the Beast Rome for three and a half years. The Christains left and were saved from the wrath of God as Jesus came in the clouds of judgment that came upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.

It was Jerusalem that Jesus said was guilty of all the blood shed from Abel in Matt.23.

Rev.18 says Babylon shed all the blood of the prophets and saints. Jerusalem was called the Great City and so was Babylon called the Great City.

All futurist will disagree with this on this site so why I'm I posting this? It's because most of the Church has been missing it concerning eschatology and it has caused them not to have faith in the fulfillment of scripture of where we are in Christ.

[Guest yod]

Here is the first time where "HIS PEOPLE" are told to flee from Babylon

Isaiah 48;20 Leave Babylon,

flee from the Babylonians!

Announce this with shouts of joy and proclaim it.

Send it out to the ends of the earth;

say, "The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob."

Babel was the place where Nimrod first mixed politics and religion. It was the first "kingdom" of cities. This is where the ancient religions come from....the birthplace of sun worship, fertility goddesses, phallic symbols.

It represents the world's system which opposes God AND Israel.

For whatever reason....Brad is stuck on proving this is Jerusalem but he can't make it fit no matter how hard he tries. Evidently facts and scripture dont' matter in his quest to find this "secret knowledge" that all of us unenlightened slobs can't see.

But let's take a look at the passage we are discussing in Rev 18.

Babylon Is Fallen

1 After these things I saw another (1) angel (2) coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was (3) illumined with his glory.

2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "(4) Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She (5) has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every (6) unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 "For all the nations [1] have drunk of the (7) wine of the passion of her immorality, and (8) the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the (9) merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her (10) sensuality."

when did all the nations become rich by Israel's wealth or her sensuality?

4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "(11) Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

5 for her sins have (12) piled up as high as heaven, and God has (13) remembered her iniquities.

6 "(14) Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the (15) cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

7 "(16) To the degree that she glorified herself and (17) lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, '(18) I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.'

8 "For this reason (19) in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be (20) burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her (21) is strong.

Lament for Babylon

9 "And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Has anyone but the jews ever wept over Jerusalem being destroyed?

10 (26) standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, '(27) Woe, woe, (28) the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in (29) one hour your judgment has come.'

11 "And the (30) merchants of the earth (31) weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more--

12 cargoes of (32) gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble,

13 and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and (33) human lives.

How are these merchants sad over the destruction of Jerusalem again??

Almost none of the things mentioned here come from Jerusalem. They have certainly NEVER sold chariots or slaves or human lives.

14 "The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

15 "The (34) merchants of (35) these things, who became rich from her, will (36) stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

16 saying, '(37) Woe, woe, (38) the great city, she who (39) was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

17 for in (40) one hour such great wealth has been laid (41) waste!' And (42) every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, (43) stood at a distance,

18 and were (44) crying out as they (45) saw the smoke of her burning, saying, '(46) What city is like (47) the great city?'

19 "And they threw (48) dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, '(49) Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea (50) became rich by her wealth, for in (51) one hour she has been laid (52) waste!'

There is no port within sight of Jerusalem. It can not be reached by sea or even a boat. The Jordan River is about 3 feet deep at Jericho....about 15 miles to the east.

20  "(53) Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and (54) apostles and prophets, because (55) God has pronounced judgment for you against her."

21  Then a (56) strong angel (57) took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, (58) the great city, be thrown down with violence, and (59) will not be found any longer.

22  "And (60) the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the (61) sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

23  and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the (62) voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your (63) merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived (64) by your sorcery.

Sorcery? Not Jerusalem.

It was destroyed for rebellion but not sorcery.

24 "And in her was found the (65) blood of prophets and of saints and of (66) all who have been slain on the earth."

ALL who have been slain on the earth? You will find not a single case of a gentile being persecuted or killed by Israel. Yes, they did persecute JEWS because they believed them to be traitors to the God of Israel...but no case can be made that they have killed ALL the saints who have been slain on the earth.

This stuff is just too easy to blast out of the water, Brad. When will you start consulting the Word of God before you post this "babel"?

[Brad]

I dont' see why it couldn't be both? And those maybe not the same?

the root word Babel literally means confusion.

I think in this case it is speaking of Babylon as a state of confusion...as a metaphor for the worldly system. It can be applied that way even if it isn't the most accurate interpretation.

But judgement will come on this worldly system and all nations who have drunk of her wine will be judged.

Everyone will face judgment. For those in Christ it has already come, they have passed out of death (negative judgment) and into life (positive judgment). Those outside of Christ are judged already and death (true, greater or "the second") will come at the end of biological life.

Quote:

3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Quote:

5:24

[Guest yod]

That is all entirely true, brother.

But there is yet coming a judgement day on the earth.

[Brad]

Here is the first time where "HIS PEOPLE" are told to flee from Babylon

Isaiah 48;20 Leave Babylon,

flee from the Babylonians!

Announce this with shouts of joy and proclaim it.

Send it out to the ends of the earth;

say, "The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob."

Babel was the place where Nimrod first mixed politics and religion. It was the first "kingdom" of cities. This is where the ancient religions come from....the birthplace of sun worship, fertility goddesses, phallic symbols.

It represents the world's system which opposes God AND Israel.

For whatever reason....Brad is stuck on proving this is Jerusalem but he can't make it fit no matter how hard he tries. Evidently facts and scripture dont' matter in his quest to find this "secret knowledge" that all of us unenlightened slobs can't see.

But let's take a look at the passage we are discussing in Rev 18.

Babylon Is Fallen

1 After these things I saw another (1) angel (2) coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was (3) illumined with his glory.

2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "(4) Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She (5) has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every (6) unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 "For all the nations [1] have drunk of the (7) wine of the passion of her immorality, and (8) the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the (9) merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her (10) sensuality."

when did all the nations become rich by Israel's wealth or her sensuality?

4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "(11) Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

5 for her sins have (12) piled up as high as heaven, and God has (13) remembered her iniquities.

6 "(14) Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the (15) cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

7 "(16) To the degree that she glorified herself and (17) lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, '(18) I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.'

8 "For this reason (19) in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be (20) burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her (21) is strong.

Lament for Babylon

9 "And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Has anyone but the jews ever wept over Jerusalem being destroyed?

10 (26) standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, '(27) Woe, woe, (28) the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in (29) one hour your judgment has come.'

11 "And the (30) merchants of the earth (31) weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more--

12 cargoes of (32) gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble,

13 and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and (33) human lives.

How are these merchants sad over the destruction of Jerusalem again??

Almost none of the things mentioned here come from Jerusalem. They have certainly NEVER sold chariots or slaves or human lives.

14 "The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

15 "The (34) merchants of (35) these things, who became rich from her, will (36) stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

16 saying, '(37) Woe, woe, (38) the great city, she who (39) was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

17 for in (40) one hour such great wealth has been laid (41) waste!' And (42) every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, (43) stood at a distance,

18 and were (44) crying out as they (45) saw the smoke of her burning, saying, '(46) What city is like (47) the great city?'

19 "And they threw (48) dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, '(49) Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea (50) became rich by her wealth, for in (51) one hour she has been laid (52) waste!'

There is no port within sight of Jerusalem. It can not be reached by sea or even a boat. The Jordan River is about 3 feet deep at Jericho....about 15 miles to the east.

20

[Guest yod]

Quote: Has anyone but the jews ever wept over Jerusalem being destroyed?

The word of God says that the kings of the earth did.

Where?

Chapter and verse. Do it or stop this nonsense.

The word Babylon is used hundreds of times in the Bible....not once does it say that it is Jerusalem.

You twist this one instance and try to make it so...but it can not be.

a half verse here....a piece of sentence there...twisted with word out of context from over yonder....

it just don't work, man.

There are so much error in what you just posted that I don't know where to start.

For example;

1. Merchants with ships would have no reason to mourn a city they can't get to in the first place.

2. None of the spices mentioned come from Israel except olive oil. Yes, you can get them in Israel but ALL of them come from the east. Cinnamon, mhyrr and frankensence have NEVER been a product of Israel in it's history

3. The slaves spoken of in the year of Jubilee were those who WILLINGLY submitted themselves to be sold among the tribes of their own. Israel has NEVER dealt with slave trade

Exodus 21

1 "Now these are the ordinances which you are to set before them:

2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3 "If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.

4 "If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.

5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,'

6 then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

7 "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.

8 "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.

So...if you have read that you will see that a "slave" in Israel is not CERTAINLY not as the verse in Revelation speaks about trading in slaves.

That is only 4 places in your last response where you have been proven wrong (again). There are many others I could address but I don't have any confidence in your willingness to accept the truth.

[Guest yod]

Yod all scripture was fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD as Jesus said in Luke 21:22, so the gentiles after 70 AD who were killed scripture does not apply to them.

this opinion of yours is just wrong. Here is the verse you quoted

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and (15) those who are in the country must not enter the city;

22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

For everyone but you, it is obvious that this ONE VERSE which you hang your entire theology upon is speaking about fulfilling those things concerning Jerusalem and Israel's dispersion into all the nations.

However, everyone but you can also see that it doesn't end there. Many, many, many more passages speak of their return in the latter days....and the regathering of Jerusalem to the jews is mentioned by Jesus just two verses later than you one you quoted. How can you miss it if not on purpose?

Luke 21

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Many saints were killed by Jerusalem