Private Interpretation of His Word

[GoodSamaritan]

I will say this though, anyone who tries to trace their origins all the way back to the apostles just wants everyone to have to bow down to their "denomination" or "orginazation".

That sounds like a veiled swipe at one or both Chruches that claim this apostolic succession. I'm not trying to convert anyone here but it sounds like you're saying that a Church that has no link to Jesus' first Apostles contains the Truth. How do you explain the variance in belief between Mormonism and Catholicism then? These two beliefs have diametrically opposing views of the Truth. In John 16, Jesus says to the Apostles:

"When the spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you all into the Truth. He will glorify me, for He will take what is mine and declare it yours."

Then in chapter 17, He says, "I do not pray for these Apostles only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one."

The Church does not 'feed Jesus' sheep' because it wants to boss us around. The Church exists to carry on the command of Jesus to his Apostles to make disciples of all nations--Christ chose the Church, not vice versa.

To say that the only true church is the Catholic Church is to take us back to the Pharisees and Saducees.

My question here would be Where does Scripture say Jesus created more than one Church? Paul in Galatians 6 says :"We are the Israel of God". In John 17, Jesus says His Church (it's not MY church or the pope's church, btw) must show a visible unity to the world. Your statement leads me to believe that you believe that the Catholic Church teaches that there is no saving grace outside of it--this is a misconception. She teaches that every Christian faith possesses elements of the Truth.

The veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom signifying that we do not need anyother human to be a go between between us and God, Jesus does that better than any priest can.

Nobody disputes that Jesus is sufficient. He is the way the truth and the life. Still, Paul calls himself in 1 Cor 'God's fellow worker'. Why is this? Why does God use the Apostles then? Because God can take measly crumbs like me and you and raise us up and make us children of God. He dignifies us by stooping down to participate with Him. If you'd like to discuss the priesthood, it's Biblical roots, and its' role in Christ's Church, i'm willing.

There are several "doctrines" that the RCC holds to that I could never hold to and to say that anyone that is not aligned with the RCC is not in the true church is irresponsible.

A great bishop once said that there are not even 100 people who hate/disagree with Catholicism, but there are many who hate/disagree with what they THINK are the teachings of Catholicism. Can you give me an example of a doctrine you spoke of above?

We're all searching for Truth. May God lead us to the Truth that is Jesus. May he humble us and make us upright in the Lord. Good rappin' with you, Str.

[Guest Strservant]

I will say this though, anyone who tries to trace their origins all the way back to the apostles just wants everyone to have to bow down to their "denomination" or "orginazation".

That sounds like a veiled swipe at one or both Chruches that claim this apostolic succession. My question here would be Where does Scripture say Jesus created more than one Church? Paul in Galatians 6 says :"We are the Israel of God". In John 17, Jesus says His Church (it's not MY church or the pope's church, btw) must show a visible unity to the world. Your statement leads me to believe that you believe that the Catholic Church teaches that there is no saving grace outside of it--this is a misconception. She teaches that every Christian faith possesses elements of the Truth.

The veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom signifying that we do not need anyother human to be a go between between us and God, Jesus does that better than any priest can.

Nobody disputes that Jesus is sufficient. He is the way the truth and the life. Still, Paul calls himself in 1 Cor 'God's fellow worker'. Why is this? Why does God use the Apostles then? Because God can take measly crumbs like me and you and raise us up and make us children of God. He dignifies us by stooping down to participate with Him. If you'd like to discuss the priesthood, it's Biblical roots, and its' role in Christ's Church, i'm willing.

There are several "doctrines" that the RCC holds to that I could never hold to and to say that anyone that is not aligned with the RCC is not in the true church is irresponsible.

A great bishop once said that there are not even 100 people who hate/disagree with Catholicism, but there are many who hate/disagree with what they THINK are the teachings of Catholicism. Can you give me an example of a doctrine you spoke of above?

We're all searching for Truth. May God lead us to the Truth that is Jesus. May he humble us and make us upright in the Lord. Good rappin' with you, Str.

GoodSamaritan,

I was swiping at any church that tries to claim apostolic roots including those in my denomination (Baptist) that try to link us to John the Baptist. They all look foolish because it just ain't there.

You are correct when you say Jesus didn't start churches. Be it a matter of fact, Jesus didn't start any churches, He started Christianity. Which means that anyone who has professed Him as Lord and Savior is part of His church wether that be Baptist, Catholic or any denomination that rightly teaches Christ proper place as Savior and Lord.

Again, while you have shown great respect in your posts to me and I appreciate that fact, there is no reason to debate this as you will believe as you believe and I will believe as I believe. There have been 100 threads done on this topic and no one is any closer to changing sides than when it started. Judging by your attitude in your posts I would say that you are a brother in Christ and that is where our agreement lies. There are just certain issues that will not be settled until God reveals the answers to us in our glorified bodies.

Respectfully,

Strservant

[VRSpock]

However, when that structure becomes more authoritative than the Word itself, that's when I have an issue with it. It is no longer Christianity then, it is a religion...and there is a difference.

Can you give an example?

Yes, about every official doctrine of every modern day Christian denomination is an example of this. There is no single official doctrine that I can come to complete agreement with because they all have one or more parts that do not mesh with scripture. I don't even like the word doctrine because it immediately implies a seperation from the Word of God in my mind.

And sometimes, it's not even the official doctrine that takes scripture out of context. Sometimes it's the personal biases of individuals in the given denomination that are guilty of this.

This is why we have pastor's leading churches who are adulterors or child molestors hiding behind a pulpit pretending to be a spiritual leader. This is why an abomination in the eyes of God is called a "alternate lifestyle" by some and even ordained by one denomination in particular MCDXVI Metropolitan Church (it's a national denomination for homosexuals) and is gradually being accepted as par for the course by many other denominations.

This is why there are so many non-denominational churches appearing all over the place. This is why charismatic churches are on such an uprise.

Actually, he FULFILLED Jewish laws, they just couldn't see this. And in turn, the Apostles, with their newly formed Church, threatened Jewish and Roman authority further. The Church has, for 2000 years, challenged and threatened the authority of secular powers. Even today, it holds true to doctrine like the intrinsic evil of contraception in the light of secular groups and Protestant groups denying this doctrine.

There's another good example. What verses exactly are used to promote the idea that contraceptives are inherintely evil? I've been led to a verse that I believe shows that they are not at least not within an ordained marriage in the eyes of God. It wasn't contraceptives that I had issue with that led me to this verse, but it applies to a lot of things including contraceptives, I believe, within the sanctity of marriage.

Hebrews 13:4 "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

This tells me clearly and without doubt that the marriage bed cannot be defiled in the eyes of God and anything done between husband and wife within their own marriage bed is between them and God and no one can say they are in the wrong for using contraceptives without contradicting that verse, IMHO. Now after conception, there is a third party involved, the conceived child, which means abortion and the morning after pill are NOT within the marriage bed and the commandment against murder immediatly applies.

I disagree. Jesus said he'd build his Church on the Apostles and that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. Timothy calls the Church 'the pillar and foundation of the Truth'.  It's a foundation and PILLAR--trees may fall but Christ's foundation and pillar will not.

I agree with your disagreement...lol...I see the church as all of God's people...you, me, everyone of Chrisitian faith on this planet who truly has a relationship with God. It is that collective body that is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. "The truth is out there." Pieces of it is within all of us and together with His Word, the Truth shall set people free. By edifying each other in our own understandings of His Word, together we come closer to realizing the fullness of His truth. Divided in disagreemets over various doctrines, darkness begins its approach, but will never win because there will always be those who are seeking the fullness of His truth.

Amen! Never forget that there are Christians in places like Sudan that are being martyred for Christ. Puts a little message board spat into perspective, doesn't it? 

Yes it does. Eventually, we must all face death and choose to do so with or without His strength and grace.

[GoodSamaritan]

Yes, about every official doctrine of every modern day Christian denomination is an example of this. There is no single official doctrine that I can come to complete agreement with because they all have one or more parts that do not mesh with scripture. I don't even like the word doctrine because it immediately implies a seperation from the Word of God in my mind.

See, the issue always becomes 'what can i pick and choose from that i AGREE with'. We look at Scripture and doctrine through American eyes. The issue should NOT be 'what do i agree with' and SHOULD be 'what is Truth', right? Jesus said he is the Way, the Truth, and the Light and that 'He who hears YOU (apostles) hears me, and He who rejects YOU, rejects Me.' We're not here to dine at God's Cafeteria--we're here to glorify Him by holding firm to His word manifest in His Church.

And sometimes, it's not even the official doctrine that takes scripture out of context. Sometimes it's the personal biases of individuals in the given denomination that are guilty of this.

How do you reconcile this with 33,000 different interpretations of Scripture? No matter what is said here, nobody can get around St. Peter's declaration that Scripture is NOT open to personal interpretation but that the RIGHT interpretation is found in Christ's Church whose foundation is the Apostles and their Successors. This cannot be denied in Scripture or anywhere else.

What verses exactly are used to promote the idea that contraceptives are inherintely evil? I've been led to a verse that I believe shows that they are not at least not within an ordained marriage in the eyes of God. It wasn't contraceptives that I had issue with that led me to this verse, but it applies to a lot of things including contraceptives, I believe, within the sanctity of marriage.

This verse from Ephesians says NOTHING of contraception. You are saying that 'anything goes' in marriage other than adultery. So what if you're married to 4 different wives? Is this OK? Of course not, but you'd never know it from a single verse in the Bible. Use some common sense here: Until 1930, not a SINGLE Church allowed birth control--not one. In 1930, the Anglican's caved out of convenience, not out of theological reason. The story of Onan is clearly about the evil of contraception. You seem to be looking for an instruction manual that says 'A is evil' and 'B is good'. That's not what the Bible is for. If it were, you'd find verses like 'The Trinity is 3 persons in one God' or 'Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of conception.' or 'Jesus is One Person with two complete natures.'. The teaching of the Apostles was unchanged on this issue until 1930--a Protestant mutiny may have left many contending sects but NONE disputed the Apostolic teaching on birth control being intrinsically evil. Check out Genesis 38: 9-10, the story of Onan. This is CLEAR Biblical Truth regarding contraception.

I see the church as all of God's people...you, me, everyone of Chrisitian faith on this planet who truly has a relationship with God. It is that collective body that is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

Scripture does not agree with you. The Church is the Body of Christ, the New Covenant. You seem to be saying that we are all one in Christ despite the contending sects that now exist--a sort of 'invisible unity'. The problem is that Christ called for a VISIBLE, physical unity as well as an invisible, spiritual unity. Paul explains it well: 'I appeal to you brethren, by the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissension among you, but that you may be united in the same mind and same judgement.' Paul never explains the Church as some spiritual bond, but tangible and visible and ONE. He calls it a field, a building, a body. He NEVER calls it a soul, however. If the Church was invisible, spiritually united, Paul would've called it a soul. There exists no provision in Scripture for dissenting teachings apart from what the Apostles taught--no provision for 33,000 different belief structures based on personal interpretation of Scripture and/or inconvenience. The divisions you speak of have been a slap in the face of Jesus. He deposited the fullness of His Truth in his Apostles, yet we humans have managed to judge this deposit as insufficient. We've chosen to interpret His Word for our own gain rather than maintain the Apostolic tradition that was THE link between us and Jesus. Many have deemed this physical, visible entity as unholy--that's quite an assertion of intellectual pride, IMO.

St. Cyprian, one of the earliest Church Fathers and martyrs, said: 'He cannot have God for his father who does not have the Church for his mother. Do you think that a man can hold his own or survive when he leaves the Church and sets up a new place and a separate home for himself? The devil doesn't trouble himself with those whom he has already made sure of, nor does he labor to conquer those already in his power. Whomever he has already alienated from teh Church, God's family, he overlooks and passes by without considering them worth his notice.'

God Bless

GS

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Where Christians are rediculed for "shoving their opinions down the throats of others" when quoting the Word of God.

This is a completely incorrect assessment of what has been happening.

Quoting the Word of God is one thing, and no one has been "ridiculed" for that.

It is an entirely different thing when you decide that a particular passage can only read and understood ONE way, and that if anyone reads or understands it differently than what YOU have determined to be correct, then they are "Slandering God, "Denying the Truth of Scripture," or some other form of condemnation designed to disuade polite debate.

The "ridicule" has been coming from people who refuse to accept the idea that someone else can look that the same verse or passage of Scripture they are looking at, and walk away with a different understanding.

That is when it IS "shoving their opinions down the throats of others." It is impolite and unChristian to respond to differences of opinions by casting disparagements upon the faith of others just because they dare disagree with you over how certain passages are read. It is because that kind of behavior, that people in the intellectual community regard many Christians as idiots.

It would be more polite when people arrive at different reading of Scripture, to allow them to explain how they arrived at their understanding, instead of heaping sneers and disparaging remarks, and even doubting their faith in the Lord. There is nothing wrong with being polite, and it get you a lot further with most people than a lot of the rudeness that has been projected here lately in the name of "quoting the Word of God."

Amen bro. well put,

Its ok to disagree aslong as you dont use your disagreement as a weapon to maliciously hurt others. When explaining our view we should not force but gently teach others that disagree. Never know, maybe we are the one that has the misinterpretation. But if we do not listen or consider other views then we are deceaving ourselves.

Compared to other christian forums I would have to say this is by a very loving and open forum where all christian point of views a listened to with respect even when others may disagree. You may run into a rude person evey once in awhile but dont judge all of us over a few individuals.

God bless,

[GoodSamaritan]

Its ok to disagree aslong as you dont use your disagreement as a weapon to maliciously hurt others.

How do you reconcile this with Paul's Scriptural writing: 'I appeal to you brethren, by the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissension among you, but that you may be united in the same mind and same judgement.'

Disunity and disagreement is precisely what Jesus DIDN'T want. I will agree that this board is not hate filled nor is it disrespectful, i applaud everyone here. Still, we are searching for Truth, not what feels good. St. Paul also says to 'reprove gently' and this we can all agree on.

The "ridicule" has been coming from people who refuse to accept the idea that someone else can look that the same verse or passage of Scripture they are looking at, and walk away with a different understanding.

Are you basing this on Scripture or your own opinion? The reason i ask is that Peter lays it out clearly in 2 Pet 1:20: NO propecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.'

How do you reconcile this with many different interpretations of the same verse?

God Bless

GS

[VRSpock]

See, the issue always becomes 'what can i pick and choose from that i AGREE with'. We look at Scripture and doctrine through American eyes. The issue should NOT be 'what do i agree with' and SHOULD be 'what is Truth', right? Jesus said he is the Way, the Truth, and the Light and that 'He who hears YOU (apostles) hears me, and He who rejects YOU, rejects Me.' We're not here to dine at God's Cafeteria--we're here to glorify Him by holding firm to His word manifest in His Church.

It has nothing to do with my personal opinion. I AM his church, as are you

John 6:56

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Christ dwells within all of us who eat and drinketh of Him. To say that one man or church denomination has apostolic authority over another is to say that one man or denomination has authority over Christ. Again, this is where I believe Christ's teaching of equality in all those who believed in him comes into play, IMHO.

How do you reconcile this with 33,000 different interpretations of Scripture? No matter what is said here, nobody can get around St. Peter's declaration that Scripture is NOT open to personal interpretation but that the RIGHT interpretation is found in Christ's Church whose foundation is the Apostles and their Successors. This cannot be denied in Scripture or anywhere else.

This verse from Ephesians says NOTHING of contraception. You are saying that 'anything goes' in marriage other than adultery. So what if you're married to 4 different wives? Is this OK?

No, and anyone who claims that is ignoring the fact that God defined marriage between 1 man and 1 woman in the very first chapter of the first book of the Bible when he created Eve from Adam. I am saying that what takes place between 1 male husband and his 1 and only female wife within the marriage bed during intimacy are between them and God and no one else, as clearly stated in Hebrews 13:4, IMHO.

You seem to be looking for an instruction manual that says 'A is evil' and 'B is good'. That's not what the Bible is for.

Galatians 5:18-23

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

An A/B definition of right and wrong can be found very clearly without the need of some grand denomination to define it. It is not the role of church denominations to reinvent the wheel but merely to repeat what God has already said.

The story of Onan has nothing to do with contraceptives. Birth control is a mutual decision between husband and wife. In Onan's case, he made the decision alone without her consent out of sinful motiviations because he did not wish to be the father of children who would be seen as his brother's children and not his own.

"And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother."

God judges people by their motives, by what their heart speaks. In Onan's case, his motives were wrong.

In the case of contraceptives, I believe the church was wrong all those years about contraceptives. Just as the church was in the wrong with regards to the earth being flat or being the center of the universe. I can list an infinite number of things the church has been wrong about. Man is an imperfect creature and any denomination or church body led by man will make mistakes, including my physical church.

The problem is that Christ called for a VISIBLE, physical unity as well as an invisible, spiritual unity.

Yes, and do you know what that type of system that is called? A "check & balance" system. The physical church is the Senate of God's people and the invisible spiritual church is the Congress of God's people...together, they are equal. I guess that makes God the President with authority to veto things...thus the protestant rebellion, when the Holy Spirit moved people to tip the scales the other direction. I'm not saying that the scales can only be tipped in only one direction either. If the physical church brings something to my attention that the invisible church has in the wrong, I will most certainly look it up myself, re-read it and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit on it, as I just did with the story of Onan.

Isn't it ironic, though, that the very nature of Democracy has biblical Christian roots yet the U.S. becomes ever more seperated from God?

There exists no provision in Scripture for dissenting teachings apart from what the Apostles taught--no provision for 33,000 different belief structures based on personal interpretation of Scripture and/or inconvenience. The divisions you speak of have been a slap in the face of Jesus.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on the 33,000 belief structures. Unfortuneately, all 33,000 appear to have a fragmented piece of His truth. While the church cannot be destroyed, it most certainly can be segmented, moved around and eventually put back together. This is the grand prophecy of the bible as a whole. In the beginning, God's truth was splintered (as far as man's knowledge of it goes) into a million pieces as soon as man fell into sin. In the end, that truth will come back together in full and the kingdom of God will be at hand. In the mean time, we as believers are all here for the same reason, to proclaim the most important part of that truth, our salvation through Christ, and to spread the good news. Any additional pieces of His truth we discover along the way is gravy. Any disagreements we may have over the details of the gravy should be trivial at best, until it starts to undermine the most important truth of all.

How many Christians have been persecuted, not by non-believers, but by other Christians because of those 33,000 different doctrinal beliefs? Where is the good news in that? Where is Christ's place at in the lives of those Christians condemning other Christians? Instead of condemnation through doctrinal discrepencies, we should all be collectively pointing to His Word and let the Holy Spirit do the condemning. He does a very good job of it...believe me.

[VRSpock]

Amen bro. well put,

Its ok to disagree aslong as you dont use your disagreement as a weapon to maliciously hurt others.  When explaining our view we should not  force but gently teach others that disagree.  Never know, maybe we are the one that has the misinterpretation.  But if we do not listen or consider other views then we are deceaving ourselves.

Compared to other christian forums I would have to say this is by a very loving and open forum where  all  christian point of views a listened to with respect even when others may disagree.  You may run into a rude person evey once in awhile but dont judge all of us over a few individuals.

God bless,

If anything I have said has been taken as malicious, I apologize. I become quite passionate though when a verse that says something like: "Thus sayeth the Lord: the sky is blue" is read by some and they start asking questions like "What did God really mean when He said the sky is blue? Maybe He didn't really mean it was blue at all or what shade of blue was He referring to? Maybe it's magenta or cyan. It's really green which is sort of a shade of blue and if you think it's as blue as the ocean, that's just your opinion...it's not the Word of God."

In my bible, God said "Let there be light" and light was created. Anything God speaks happens without failure and without pause. God's Word is all powerful and to watch people kick it around like my example above really stirs my soul.

Granted, there are many things in the bible that are not quite as blatantly obvious as "the sky is blue" but still, it's very difficult for me to understand how someone can come to an opinion that appears opposite of what is being said literally in a verse of scripture....no matter who it is or what it's about.

The devil can play mind games wth us. God told Adam and Eve "Do not eat of that tree" and the devil convinced Eve that was not what God really meant. Then Eve in turn convinced Adam of the same lie. It's a trick as old as creation itself, yet 33,000 different doctrines from ONE word of God goes to show that it still works quite well.

Again, I apologize if anything I may say offends anyone. It is not my intent.

1 Corinthians 14:26

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

2 Peter 1:19-21

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

[VRSpock]

In my bible, God said "Let there be light" and light was created.  Anything God speaks happens without failure and without pause.  God's Word is all powerful and to watch people kick it around like my example above really stirs my soul.

One thing I must note here, I myself was found guilty of this very thing. When I first entered this forum, I brought with me many questions regarding creation. At the time I was willing to overlook the book of Genesis because it didn't agree with my perception of things. As I discussed these things with people in this forum, something began to happen. The Holy Spirit began to convict me of my willingness to overlook one part of His Word and yet cling to another part. I had to learn to accept His whole Word and not just a part of it.

Eight years previous to this, I was an atheist and didn't accept any part of His Word or anything else for that matter. It was only through the Holy Spirit that I was able to truly accept Him back into my life.

[His son]

Acts 2:1

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

(KJV)

Acts 5:12

12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

(KJV)

1 Cor 1:10

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

(KJV)

2 Cor 13:11

11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

(KJV)

Eph 4:3

Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

(KJV)

Eph 4:15-16

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

(KJV)

Phil 2:2

2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

(KJV)

There is one body, the body parts all recieve exactly the same information, and that information makes them all work together for one purpose.

The Bible also says the things of this world are not of God. Disagreement is of the world, with God there is no disagreement. Man is never going to change this no matter how hard He tries.