Menelope Posted October 22, 2008 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 63 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2008 "You cannot know yourself properly or completely until you know Jesus Christ" --> Well, I believe one can be complete without God. Or rather, I know it is possible. "Knowinbg God is bringing about a total renewal from the inside out" --> In that case, you don't need your Bible. You don't need to defend it, nor use it, because you could only use your own inner emotion (faith), your connection to God, to answer everything about your faith. You're refering to the Bible instead, to a thing one can touch, and without that thing, you'd be ... nothing. What kind of faith is that, that will die, without its source? What happens to that inner connection then, I wonder?? "First if there were no bible none of us would be having these conversations would we? And we all would be going around like so many today trying to 'find oneself'." --> Look above. The book is not faith, GOD is. And there is nothing wrong with wanting to know oneself. "The Bible is the owners manul written by the one that made us. No one knows us better than the one that created us, why wuold you want to ignore his instructions on how to live life to it's fullest." --> Because I'm a woman, I'm human, I'm a free person, my own individual, I'm equal to men, not below them. I don't have desires to obey men, I will not obey my husband, nor will I become a housewife that sacrifices herself to her man and children. I will have a family filled with love and respect, not with control and male power. The Bible is very anti-feministic, that is, very anti-me. It is obsolete, and I shall not follow it. If God desires to suppress me (which I highly doubt that God would want that...), then I shall not obey. To live my life to the fullest, would be to express myself, not to shut up when men are around. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted October 22, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2008 I just like to add that some atheists and agnostics were once Christian. Perhaps if you spoke to them, maybe they would give out reasons why they turned away from the Bible and God. I just want an evenhanded approach towards things. It would contribute to this discussion greatly if we got their (Christians turned atheist/agnostic/another religion not having to do with a Christian sect) points of views on things. If that is what you want then your talking to one of those, I grew up within christianity, left, dabbled around with all kinds of stuff for years, became an atheist then agnostic and here I am full circle into Christ embrace. I have 4 bothers and all but only one is a believer though he wasn't for much of his life, my sister and mother are both believe but my father didn't for almost 60 years of his life. Is that a good enough view point? I also know many who have turned away though most have come back to God. My family isn't on the internet except one brother but he wouldn't even bother with a forum like this. I am not sure your going to get that even handness with all views since more often than not this kind of discussion tends to come down to do this or this will happen type of thing. All I can do is talk with others, answer their questions, to the best of my ability, when asked, steer people to the bible and leave it to them to open it and read what it truly has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 22, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 22, 2008 "You cannot know yourself properly or completely until you know Jesus Christ" --> Well, I believe one can be complete without God. Or rather, I know it is possible. One can certainly live without God, and even have a good life without Him. But they cannot live life as it is intended by God the Creator, who knows all things about us and loves us immensely---not a complete life. Plus, any reward in a life lived without Christ is received in the here and now---nothing to look forward to later. "Knowing God is bringing about a total renewal from the inside out" --> In that case, you don't need your Bible. You don't need to defend it, nor use it, because you could only use your own inner emotion (faith), your connection to God, to answer everything about your faith. You're refering to the Bible instead, to a thing one can touch, and without that thing, you'd be ... nothing. What kind of faith is that, that will die, without its source? What happens to that inner connection then, I wonder?? "First if there were no bible none of us would be having these conversations would we? And we all would be going around like so many today trying to 'find oneself'." God gives us His written Word as food for life. We need it. With it or without it, I am a King's kid. The "inner connection" occurs when the Holy Spirit comes, sweeps our lives clean of the stain of sin, and inhabits those of us who believe. Even without the written word, we have the living Jesus. We find ourselves in Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 23, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.10 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2008 --> Because I'm a woman, I'm human, I'm a free person, my own individual, I'm equal to men, not below them. I don't have desires to obey men, I will not obey my husband, nor will I become a housewife that sacrifices herself to her man and children. I will have a family filled with love and respect, not with control and male power. The Bible is very anti-feministic, that is, very anti-me. It is obsolete, and I shall not follow it. If God desires to suppress me (which I highly doubt that God would want that...), then I shall not obey. To live my life to the fullest, would be to express myself, not to shut up when men are around. Simple. While it's true that you are free to live as you see fit....when your life on earth ends, you will still have to answer to Him. You need to figure it out for yourself...it's not about you (or any mortal), it's about the Lord and His plans for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 23, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 23, 2008 --> Because I'm a woman, I'm human, I'm a free person, my own individual, I'm equal to men, not below them. I don't have desires to obey men, I will not obey my husband, nor will I become a housewife that sacrifices herself to her man and children. I will have a family filled with love and respect, not with control and male power. The Bible is very anti-feministic, that is, very anti-me. It is obsolete, and I shall not follow it. If God desires to suppress me (which I highly doubt that God would want that...), then I shall not obey. To live my life to the fullest, would be to express myself, not to shut up when men are around. Simple. You couldn't be further from the truth regarding God's Word. The idea that women are less-than is a wrong one. Women and men are created as equals, and co-heirs with Jesus Christ and in dominion over all the earth...together. I agree with you only in that there is a patriarchal view out there but God has set up humanity to be egalitarian. It took me an open-mind and heart in relationship with the liuving Jesus to discover that the message to us as women is that we are co-heirs of all that God promises, and we are to labour shoulder-to-shoulder with men. So, what you figure is anti-feministic is a segment of believers, but not the entire Body of Jesus Christ.God is not into suppressing us, but rather developing us to become the strong, capable, women of excellence and expression we are created to be for Him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menelope Posted October 23, 2008 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 63 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2008 --> Because I'm a woman, I'm human, I'm a free person, my own individual, I'm equal to men, not below them. I don't have desires to obey men, I will not obey my husband, nor will I become a housewife that sacrifices herself to her man and children. I will have a family filled with love and respect, not with control and male power. The Bible is very anti-feministic, that is, very anti-me. It is obsolete, and I shall not follow it. If God desires to suppress me (which I highly doubt that God would want that...), then I shall not obey. To live my life to the fullest, would be to express myself, not to shut up when men are around. Simple. You couldn't be further frm the truth regarding God's Word. The idea that women are less-than is a wrong one. Women and men are created as equals, and co-heirs with Jesus Christ and in dominion over all the earth...together. I agree with you only in that there is a patriarchal view out there but God has set up humanity to be egalitarian. It took me an open-mind and heart in relationship with the liuving Jesus to discover that the message to us as women is that we are co-heirs of all that God promises, and we are to labour shoulder-to-shoulder with men. So, what you figure is anti-feministic is a segment of believers, but not the entire Body of Jesus Christ.God is not into suppressing us, but rather developing us to become the strong, capable, women of excellence and expression we are created to be for Him! The idea in the Bible, is not what you speak of. You people need to make up your minds, either everything in the Bible is the words of God, or just some of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 The idea in the Bible, is not what you speak of. You people need to make up your minds, either everything in the Bible is the words of God, or just some of it. Are You Now A Believer? Do You Believe And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:12-14 Brother, Have You Fled The Sure Wrath To Come? For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18 Are You Washed By The Blood Of The LAMB? And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood. Do You Know My LORD Jesus? Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:27-28 Do You Carry His Mark? And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. Ezekiel 9:4 Do You Hope? And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:3-4 Do You Love My Jesus? Do You? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menelope Posted October 25, 2008 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 63 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted October 25, 2008 ...Am I now I believer...?.... You know what, it's a good question and it made me think a lot before answering, not because I didn't have an answer, but simply because I didn't know exactly how to answer it. At this point in life, I'm fighting another "faith"-question... I will reply having that precise question in mind, and that will bring out my personality, and therefore it can be used on answering your question about Christianity.... I'm hard to convience, make me doubt once, and I will need twice as much re-assurence. Very, very stubborn I like to search for the truth, that is because I would like to commit my heart and soul into something and I would like to do that whole-heartedly. For doing that, I would like to make a decision that is as rational as possible, and to do that I must search, and I must really search. I will keep on searching, as long as I have the idea and want/need for that something to actually be true. The only reason I would quit searching, is because I didn't want that anymore, or because I found an answer. So, it takes hope and will. But... It also means that somewhere deep down inside, there is an idea of that something, meaning that the answer one finds, must be the same as in your mind, or else it's not really an answer you are looking for, meaning one could turn against the answer because it doesn't fit you, or accept it anyway(and become disappointed) or keep on searching until you find a better one. The thing is, what I just described is simply the search of an idea, it's not really faith but rather hope, and these are the ways that hope can live, or die. The Agnostic is the careful one here, who will probably stay that way forever, or most likely for a really long time. The Atheist has decided that there is no answer (or the answer is that God doesn't exist), and will probably never change. When it comes to faith, that path you take, is a plunge. A plunge into the unknown, because there is no answer about God's existence, it can't be found, but only in your own heart and mind. That takes courage, a courage that the Atheist denies as good, and a courage that the Agnostic fears. The truly faithful one has no fears, no doubts, no nothing, he loves his faith and holds it as the absolute truth, and no one can take that away from him...or it's not faith. ( Then there are those who have been manipulated since birth to have faith, it is these people who get angry and nasty when someone questions them, and they act that way simply because they are actually not sure...that is not faith, but simply their own fears lashing out, that same fears the Atheist has, with the difference that the Atheist doesn't suppress his...) The faithful doesn't need to prove anything, he knows, and he is satisfied with his knowledge, the knowledge of/in his heart and mind... I'm an Agnostic, I have doubts, fears and lack of faith. I am a person who needs proof. I don't deny something that may be true, God is one of these things. But I need proof, and solid proof. A book is not enough for me, but God is. Only God himself can prove it, and then I would believe in it...or perhaps something else might do that too, but I am not sure... I have fears, yes, but as an Agnostic, I would face those fears and shake them off, and not act like an Atheist- run away from the truth, taking my fears with me... But, even without faith, I can do my best at being who I am, living my life in a good way, do my best at respecting and caring for people around me, help and support those who need it, get married and raise children to become decent people, and so on... if faith comes along, then I will embrace it, if it doesn't, then I hope it was not a bad decision... Yes, Christianity can provide many, many good and satisfying things, if one finds faith. Maybe I'm too young, maybe I'm too afraid or blind, maybe I'm not wise enough...who knows?? All I want, is to commit completely, and I can't bring myself to do that, until my heart and mind are set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted October 26, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 26, 2008 Menelope... The Agnostic is the careful one here, who will probably stay that way forever, or most likely for a really long time. The Atheist has decided that there is no answer (or the answer is that God doesn't exist), and will probably never change. Hi Menelope...been reading some of the things you have written, and thought I would add a few thoughts. I like the way you express things, and think aloud as you reply thoughtfully. Agnostics, Atheists (not really such a being in my opinion) or any other belief systems, are never enough to shield a person from the love of G-d, and bringing them to a place of decision, where they leave what may even have been a large part of their cultural upbringing, in the light of the claims the Messiah makes upon their lives...As someone previously stated, none of us were ever born believing, we all had to step out in faith and make a choice, and we all emerged from the 'gloop' of humanity's diversity. When it comes to faith, that path you take, is a plunge. A plunge into the unknown, because there is no answer about God's existence, it can't be found, but only in your own heart and mind. Its a bit like falling in love...you eventually decide you are going to take the plunge and get married, because you want to be with the person you have got to know and trust and love. Some people get married after a whirl-wind romance...others are engaged for a longer period of time. At the end of the day a decision must be reached. The answer of G-ds existence can be found, firstly through Creation, ( I have known people who have been drawn to G-d by looking up at the stars at night) through words and accounts in the Bible, through peoples writings, through the lives of people themselves, through the conviction of ones own heart, and through the calling and drawing of an individual by the Holy Spirit, which might involve any or all of the things mentioned. Eventually your own life and your own convictions, may well be a demonstration to others of the G-d that has become your Saviour. I'm an Agnostic, I have doubts, fears and lack of faith. ...and I love the L-rd, but I have doubts, fears and lack of faith too. Yes, Christianity can provide many, many good and satisfying things, if one finds faith. Maybe I'm too young, maybe I'm too afraid or blind, maybe I'm not wise enough...who knows?? All I want, is to commit completely, and I can't bring myself to do that, until my heart and mind are set. Its not really a question of finding faith...its meeting the Living G-d. Repenting of your sin, literally being born again, with not a blemish recorded against you...a clean sheet...pure and spotless...and all because G-d gave His Son to pay the price of our sin, that we might have the 'relationship' between G-d and man, that the empty void in our hearts cries out for and so desperately wants...even when we don't recognise it, or try to plug the gap with other things. In Messiah. Botz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 ... it's not really faith but rather hope.... Hope Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:13 God's Gift To See The LORD Jesus For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him 2 Corinthians 5:21 To Fall Crushed Before Him I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting Isaiah 50:6 To Know God Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:27-28 To Turn Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Acts 3:19 To Life My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. John 10:27-30 I Love You Jesus May You See Jesus And Believe And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Joe For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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