The Gospel and attesting miraculous and the power of God..

[carlos123]

Hi all,

I would like to talk about how the Lord's preaching of the gospel (and that of the New Testament Christians) was accompanied by attesting miracles and how we don't see many such miracles today (at least in North America).

If anyone wants to discuss this I mean....this forum seems to have changed since I was here years ago. It doesn't seem like anyone wants to really discuss things in depth in anymore. Don't know. When I post an in depth post on something being discussed it's like the thread goes silent. I don't know. Maybe I am getting too wordy and boring people. I hope not.

But...I'd like to discuss this if anyone wants to.

Yesterday I spent several hours pouring over the New Testament. Looking up every verse where the word "gospel" is mentioned. I am looking at what the message was that they preached then so that I can better imitate and share the gospel today. The one thing I was left with after those hours of study was a strong sense of fear. Fear in the sense that we, as Christians, have a message that can save people but we are doing very little with it. We discuss it and talk of it and use the grace in our lives that is provided to us through the cross while the world goes to hell.

I was convicted deeply of my own neglect and lethargy. For years I have longed to leave Canada. Bad! I have not been able to so far. A friend of mine mentioned recently that there were a million souls in the city I live in and it struck me last night how incredibly hard and unconcerned I have been with their salvation. I repented of that before the Lord.

But I was also left wondering at how the gospel message seems so powerless today. I mean it IS the way of salvation but although people know that Jesus died for our sins they mostly hear that message and go...ho hum.

They didn't do that to Jesus or the New Testament church. Why? Because when Jesus preached his preaching was accompanied by attesting miracles. When Paul preached the gospel his preaching was accompanied by power and attesting miracles.

As I prayed about this it struck me...what an INCREDIBLE affront to the Living God it is that WE, HIS BODY, cannot live out the fact that we are in the place of Jesus!!! To do, as a Body, what He did!

Let me put it this way...we claim to have taken hold of a reconciled relationship to God...TO GOD!!! We believe that we, as Christians, are alive to God. As alive to Him as Jesus was (according to Romans). We can speak with the authority of Jesus. We can call on the Father in Jesus name (in His place). Do we REALLY realize what we are saying???

If we are who we claim to be as Christians...if we indeed have a relationship of peace with God our Father such that He loves us as much as He loved Jesus. Such that we can act as a Body in the place of Jesus. Then WHY...

WHY are we NOT SEEING HAPPEN WHAT JESUS DID!!! AS A BODY. THE BODY OF CHRIST!

Something is wrong. I don't know what it is yet but something doesn't smell right in our walk.

Yet...I don't know what that is. I don't know how to trust God to see what Jesus did through US...HIS BODY. Doing what Jesus did in HIS BODY.

I have on occasion suffered various pains. I have prayed and prayed. Commanded such pains to leave me. Rebuked such pains. Even quoted the King James over them. All to no avail. I don't know how to have faith to do what Jesus did but....I DO BELIEVE THAT JESUS WANTS US TO DO WHAT HE DID. AS A BODY. TODAY!

Who will seek the Lord with me to figure this out? I mean either my thinking is screwy or else God has something He wants us to be about in all this.

The gospel without the power of God joined to it...without attesting miracles...becomes nothing more than one more religious message among a host of other one's. A ho hum message without power. The gospel with God's power and attesting miracles becomes...well...guess what? What they had in the New Testament!!! Yup! That's right. It becomes what they had in the New Testament. We don't have that today. We have a theological gospel today. Great. But a theological gospel will not cause the masses of people to look up and pay attention. Like they did to Jesus and Paul and Peter and others. Then.

Our gospel is ho hum today. Not much more than another religious message. To unbelievers I mean.

Where is the power of God combined with gospel preaching? In third world countries! Among the poor who Jesus said are rich in faith. But I have no idea how to imitate their faith. Does anyone else know how to imitate the faith of the poor in third world countries? I am all ears.

Hopefully some will want to discuss this...not just the theology of it - which is important, but for purposes of my interest in this I am much more interested in discussing how I can go out tommorrow, find the nearest person in a wheelchair and in the name of Jesus tell them to get up and start walking. I got no clue. If I can't even see God heal me of my pains how in the world can I go out and do that?

Carlos

[Poindexter]

Hi all,

I would like to talk about how the Lord's preaching of the gospel (and that of the New Testament Christians) was accompanied by attesting miracles and how we don't see many such miracles today (at least in North America).

If anyone wants to discuss this I mean....this forum seems to have changed since I was here years ago. It doesn't seem like anyone wants to really discuss things in depth in anymore. Don't know. When I post an in depth post on something being discussed it's like the thread goes silent. I don't know. Maybe I am getting too wordy and boring people. I hope not.

But...I'd like to discuss this if anyone wants to.

Yesterday I spent several hours pouring over the New Testament. Looking up every verse where the word "gospel" is mentioned. I am looking at what the message was that they preached then so that I can better imitate and share the gospel today. The one thing I was left with after those hours of study was a strong sense of fear. Fear in the sense that we, as Christians, have a message that can save people but we are doing very little with it. We discuss it and talk of it and use the grace in our lives that is provided to us through the cross while the world goes to hell.

I was convicted deeply of my own neglect and lethargy. For years I have longed to leave Canada. Bad! I have not been able to so far. A friend of mine mentioned recently that there were a million souls in the city I live in and it struck me last night how incredibly hard and unconcerned I have been with their salvation. I repented of that before the Lord.

But I was also left wondering at how the gospel message seems so powerless today. I mean it IS the way of salvation but although people know that Jesus died for our sins they mostly hear that message and go...ho hum.

They didn't do that to Jesus or the New Testament church. Why? Because when Jesus preached his preaching was accompanied by attesting miracles. When Paul preached the gospel his preaching was accompanied by power and attesting miracles.

As I prayed about this it struck me...what an INCREDIBLE affront to the Living God it is that WE, HIS BODY, cannot live out the fact that we are in the place of Jesus!!! To do, as a Body, what He did!

Let me put it this way...we claim to have taken hold of a reconciled relationship to God...TO GOD!!! We believe that we, as Christians, are alive to God. As alive to Him as Jesus was (according to Romans). We can speak with the authority of Jesus. We can call on the Father in Jesus name (in His place). Do we REALLY realize what we are saying???

If we are who we claim to be as Christians...if we indeed have a relationship of peace with God our Father such that He loves us as much as He loved Jesus. Such that we can act as a Body in the place of Jesus. Then WHY...

WHY are we NOT SEEING HAPPEN WHAT JESUS DID!!! AS A BODY. THE BODY OF CHRIST!

Something is wrong. I don't know what it is yet but something doesn't smell right in our walk.

Yet...I don't know what that is. I don't know how to trust God to see what Jesus did through US...HIS BODY. Doing what Jesus did in HIS BODY.

I have on occasion suffered various pains. I have prayed and prayed. Commanded such pains to leave me. Rebuked such pains. Even quoted the King James over them. All to no avail. I don't know how to have faith to do what Jesus did but....I DO BELIEVE THAT JESUS WANTS US TO DO WHAT HE DID. AS A BODY. TODAY!

Who will seek the Lord with me to figure this out? I mean either my thinking is screwy or else God has something He wants us to be about in all this.

The gospel without the power of God joined to it...without attesting miracles...becomes nothing more than one more religious message among a host of other one's. A ho hum message without power. The gospel with God's power and attesting miracles becomes...well...guess what? What they had in the New Testament!!! Yup! That's right. It becomes what they had in the New Testament. We don't have that today. We have a theological gospel today. Great. But a theological gospel will not cause the masses of people to look up and pay attention. Like they did to Jesus and Paul and Peter and others. Then.

Our gospel is ho hum today. Not much more than another religious message. To unbelievers I mean.

Where is the power of God combined with gospel preaching? In third world countries! Among the poor who Jesus said are rich in faith. But I have no idea how to imitate their faith. Does anyone else know how to imitate the faith of the poor in third world countries? I am all ears.

Hopefully some will want to discuss this...not just the theology of it - which is important, but for purposes of my interest in this I am much more interested in discussing how I can go out tommorrow, find the nearest person in a wheelchair and in the name of Jesus tell them to get up and start walking. I got no clue. If I can't even see God heal me of my pains how in the world can I go out and do that?

Carlos

Unbelieving and disobedient believers are the problem.

[carlos123]

Unbelieving and disobedient believers are the problem.

Okay then...perhaps I AM unbelieving and disobedient. Let's say I am for the sake of this discussion. HOW do I repent and then go out and do the right thing? HOW? Should I go to the nearest hospital and find a cripple and go up to him and tell him to get up in the name of Jesus?

It seems that Jesus did not seek out the sick. He preached the gospel and sick people came up to Him to be healed. WHAT do I do if I am preaching the gospel on a street corner somewhere and someone comes up to me sick? HOW do I believe and see them healed? As Jesus did.

HOW?

I am all ears. If the problem is that I, as an example, am unbelieving and disobedient...then HOW do I change? What do I do? Feel free to correct me in any way you feel will fix my unbelieving and disobedient heart. I don't care about being shown to be potentially unbelieving and disobedient in public. I will confess such before all and humble myself on this thread. What I care about is doing what Jesus did. If you can show me how to do that I will bless your correction of me.

I am being absolutely sincere in what I say. Not facitious or smartalikey at all.

Carlos

[Guest man]

HOW?

Matthew 17

20 So Jesus said to them,

[Guest man]

I got no clue. If I can't even see God heal me of my pains how in the world can I go out and do that?

Matthew 19

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him,

[Botz]

Hi Carlos...that is a cry from the heart you have there, and the desire to see something of the reality of the New Testament Church in operation today, and for part of your experience to incorporate the attesting signs and wonders that should go hand in hand with preaching the gospel.

I believe that it is a cry in many people's hearts, and you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned how some of us have grace to live within the confines of our own salvation, but do not have the grace to reach out to a spiritually dead world, and believe we will see people saved, and miraculous demonstrations of the power of G-d revealed.

From my limited experience, and from what I have seen, it is when a Church leaves its comfort zone and does what it is commisisoned to do, that things begin to happen, demons manifest and are cast out, healings of various sorts take place (not just headaches and period pains), the gospel is preached in POWER, and people do not make a mental assent to the gospel, and mouth a faithless prayer only to fall away after a few weeks, but they 'confess with their mouths AND believe in their hearts that Jesus is L-rd...and the evidence of their salvation is there for all to see, and they persevere.

I think it is extremely difficult to be out on a limb and want to exercise what you see in the Gospels without the back up of a good Church, and godly leaders...it generally leads to a 'lone ranger' complex, and a christian intensity that scares people away and causes great disappointment and heartache to the would be miracle worker.

Seeing G-d confirm His word with attesting miracles generally needs the platform of a body of Believers from which to pray with expectancy and get support etc and build faith, but the object is to see people saved, and to leave G-d to intervene with signs and wonders, rather than to major on them and get side-tracked trying to manufacture what we think should be happening.

It is also necessary to understand that the miracles taking place were usually done at the hands of the Apostles, or mighty men of G-d, and were not necessarily an everyday occurance as some people might believe. If you belong to a solid body of Believers who unflinchingly preach the Good News, in my opinion and experience you are more likely to hear of attestations to the demonstrable power of G-d...even in the West!... but it may occur just a few times now and then.

In Messiah. Botz

[traveller]

Carlos - it is so good to see you back, brother.

You raise an important question. Certainly I don't have any answers, but I have opinions. I think North America is fat. It's hard to feed a fat man that thinks his food comes from the entertainment world, the designer stores, the currency machines. When there is no need and no want then there is no desire.

Compare our society to third world countries. Those people are hungry, they have no distractions of luxury cars, or 24/7 television or peer pressure at school to wear the latest names on their back. I can speak up for the hungry. I was once, many years ago. Physically hungry, I mean. Day after day, week after week, month after month. All you think about is your belly, and your child's belly. It's painful, you know. It's debilitating. And, when you're in that state, any food will do - you take what you can find, what is offered. Bad food is fine, it will get you by - but you long for good food. Your thoughts dwell on it. It becomes the biggest thing in your life. When someone comes along with an abundance of it, your whole life changes.

Many societies today have satisfied bellies. It is perhaps not you nor your message, but their ears that pose the problem. Remember - even Jesus was not received everywhere. And, when He sent His disciples out, two by two, He told them to take no provisions, not even food, and to shake the dust from their feet if their message was not received. It was not the message, nor was it for lack of miracles and signs, but it was the hearts of the people that were lacking. This was, I beleive, to show the disciples that there was unbelief in the world.

Hearts grow colder as time goes on. I beleive that is why the Lord is shaking things up now. He's trying to get the people's attention to focus back on Him. To get the people to realize their treasures are disappearing. Perhaps to move them to a place of want.

Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I do sincerely believe that miracles are peppered within the nation. I see mighty men and women of God serving tirelessly for the kingdom. Our fight is great. We live in a time where man depends on man. Yet there, in the midst of that, is the Lord who is still offering salvation, still offering eternal life to whosoever will accept it.

You have a compassionate heart, brother, and are a willing vessel for the Lord. He will use you mightily.

[stormy612]

I think it is extremely difficult to be out on a limb and want to exercise what you see in the Gospels without the back up of a good Church, and godly leaders...it generally leads to a 'lone ranger' complex, and a christian intensity that scares people away and causes great disappointment and heartache to the would be miracle worker.

Seeing G-d confirm His word with attesting miracles generally needs the platform of a body of Believers from which to pray with expectancy and get support etc and build faith, but the object is to see people saved, and to leave G-d to intervene with signs and wonders, rather than to major on them and get side-tracked trying to manufacture what we think should be happening.

In Messiah. Botz

Hi Botz, Can you explain this more to me? I'm something of a 'lone ranger', but not by choice. When I've been at church and spoken as God has led me, I am considered 'passionate for Christ' but somehow dismissed. I never know what they are thinking, but I seem to repel other Christians. I was even told once by a woman who I know has a personal relationship with Jesus that I am 'scary'. She said I needed to let others get to know me first, earn their trust, then I could say this or that. But I speak when God leads me, and sometimes that is right now, not after several years of earning trust ("The time is coming and now is"). I speak what God confirms in my spirit as truth (He always backs up His word with verses before I speak). And I am left with that great disappointment and heartache you referred to. I'm not gifted with healing or casting out demons (I may not be mature enough for that yet). Its too easy to say that they are the ones who aren't listening and sit back confident in what I know to be true, but because I am always seeking Him, I can't believe that I am always wrong either-especially when I know that I am speaking as I am led by Him. In the end, all I can do is speak as God leads me, and leave it to God to do what He intended. But I'm left with a body of believers who do NOT support me at all, or if they do, they pray that I may see the error of my ways. I am to live as God leads me, but when I do, I am 'cast out' by men. How does one reconcile that? Jesus has even given me words of comfort concerning this: "For those with ears to hear, let them hear", "One plants, another waters, but it is God who gives life to the seed," and others.

Please understand, I'm not saying that I don't speak out of turn sometimes. When I do, God convicts me. But when I DO speak according to His guidance, I am NOT convicted, just heartbroken by the response of those He told me to speak too. I am not called to start a church or be a preacher but I am called to speak to the church. When I am dismissed or argued with, am I to believe that I am wrong every time and do as the church would have me do, and believe what they would have me believe? I can submit to the authority of a church (Peter submitted to Paul's authority even though Paul came AFTER him), but I cannnot and will not give myself over to their judgements of me. God holds me accountable and judges my actions alone. How am I to have a body of believers support me when they won't? Am I to be dismissed as a faith-filled Christian because I don't have this body of believers standing behind me?

I'm not angry; I'm just trying to find the balance of standing true on God's word with not running off every Christian when I speak (like the lady who shut her ears against me because what I said was 'scary'-was it me that scared her, or was it God's word?).

Carlos, I agree that sometimes it isn't our faith that comes into question, but the faith of those we are called to. Even Jesus couldn't perform many miracles in Nazareth because of their lack of faith. I also agree that it's difficult indeed to feed the 'fat ones', especially when that food can be as bitter as His truth sometimes is.

[Leonard]

Unbelieving and disobedient believers are the problem.

Okay then...perhaps I AM unbelieving and disobedient. Let's say I am for the sake of this discussion. HOW do I repent and then go out and do the right thing? HOW? Should I go to the nearest hospital and find a cripple and go up to him and tell him to get up in the name of Jesus?

It seems that Jesus did not seek out the sick. He preached the gospel and sick people came up to Him to be healed. WHAT do I do if I am preaching the gospel on a street corner somewhere and someone comes up to me sick? HOW do I believe and see them healed? As Jesus did.

HOW?

I am all ears. If the problem is that I, as an example, am unbelieving and disobedient...then HOW do I change? What do I do? Feel free to correct me in any way you feel will fix my unbelieving and disobedient heart. I don't care about being shown to be potentially unbelieving and disobedient in public. I will confess such before all and humble myself on this thread. What I care about is doing what Jesus did. If you can show me how to do that I will bless your correction of me.

I am being absolutely sincere in what I say. Not facitious or smartalikey at all.

Carlos

Stay close to the Lord, and as a spiritual gift is needed, He will provide.

That may not make us as happy as it would if we could walk around showing off how much 'power' we have, but it IS the Way of the Master......

[EricH]

God demonstrates his power in many ways. OUr problem is that we try and box God in and because we do that we miss the miraculous things He is doing. Frequently God uses the miraculous in conjucntion with the Gospel in places it is penetrating for the first time. Not always, but frequently. God knows the hearts of people. He will give them what they need to respond to the gospel. It may be that God knows that in certain places the miraculous would be counter productive. To say that God must always do miracles, or that God does not do miracles any more are both false. Our business shoule be to be sharing the gospel, and let God worry about the other stuff.