Matthew 7: 21-23

[Guest shiloh357]

That is simply not true I know many lay peoples who believe OSAS and wouldn't know what eternal security meant.

Yeah, and the key term is "lay people." I am not talking about what lay people believe; they don't know anymore than you do. I am talking about Eternal Security actually teaches.

and if you tell them they need to stop living in sin and start serving God to get to heaven they would be awfully offended.

That is not how a doctrine is measured.

It is the doctrine itself, what it is and what it actually claims that is at the heart. It stands or falls based on its own claims, and the knowledge or lack thereof of the adherants.

Seondly, serving God and cessation of sin is not how you go to heaven. You go to heaven by trusting Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. It is Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit living within you that enables you to serve God and stop the practice of sin. No one goes to hell because of what they do. They go to hell because they don't know Jesus. The Cessation of sin is what salvation empowers us to do and is a key sign that our profession of faith is genuine.

After all they show up for church most Sundays and believe Jesus is the Christ. Why would thery need to marry their girlfriend before having sex they been together fore 5 years?

Yeah, that how all of them live. I guess you have been in every church that believes in Eternal Security and you know for a fact that they all go out and live in sin.

You don' know squat. This is just an unwarranted, over generalized and completely unfair characterization. It is in fact, dishonest. You can't really deal with substance, so your only paint the adherants with broad brush and in as bad of a light as you can. That kind of coward's response only highlights the weakness of your claim.

[Smalcald]

easy believism are the teaching that you do not have to serve God, you do not need to stop sinning, you do not even need to repent as long as you believe that Jesus is the Son of god died and rose again you are saved regardless of anything else even if you are a murderer.

What church has this, sounds like quite a party!

[EricH]

1st of all I didn't say people on these boards have taught this, I said many churches do and they do.

You said it was taught "even in this forum." So I am interested where in this forum it has been taught.

Secondly, OSAS does not teach that you can continue in sin. That is a false value that people like you erect becaue you don't understand firstly that there is no such doctrine as "OSAS." It is called eternal security. Secondly, what we teach is not that you can just continue in sin as much as you want and still be saved. What we teach is that you don't have to get resaved every time you do sin.

lol....No such teaching as OSAS, that is a laugh.

OSAS is a label that assigns a false value to Eternal Security. It is assigned by those who want to cast a false light on the doctrine. Basically people like you put the lie in our mouths and then argue against it.

You are correct, Shiloh. OSAS is a strawman. The real name of the doctrine is the perseverance of the Saints. It bears no resemblance to OSAS which is not a doctrine at all

[Guest shiloh357]

You are the one that thinks they know everything yet does not know squat,

No, I just know the difference between what a doctrine teaches vs. the mischaracterization and attempts at demonization of groups based on a fair lack of actual knowledge.

the Bible clearly teaches that we must serve God and not just believe in Him, that we are justified by our works and not faith only, and that someone who has had a real conversion can turn from God,.

Yes, and proponents of Eternal Security believe that as well. We teach that grace promotes holiness and we base that on Titus 2:11-14. Our works justify us in the sight of men, but they don't save us.

Whether you believe you can continue in sin or not you are just a bad as those that teach you can. Any form of eternal security, whether you call it Eternal security perseverrance of the Saints OSAS, Hyper Grace, Free Grace or Easy believeism are equally corrupt and are sending people to hell unaware.

See, therein lies the problem. You have taken a bunch of different views lumped them all together as if they were the same thing and they are not.

Same tholds true with extreme views like hyper grace and easy believism. You are taking the most extreme fringe doctrines that most people people have probably never heard of and acting as if there is no practical or moral distinction between extreme teachings genuine doctrines held by sincere believers. Furthermore, you draw from the lowest common denominator in order to define the doctrines you oppose. You have a very unfair and inaccurate means of representing what others believe.

Todays church teaches a water down, milk toast gospel that may grow attendance, but does not develop disciples that are living out God's word defending the truth with their lives, and you are part of the problem not the solution

You have no idea what "today's church" teaches. You are just arrogantly throwing everyone else in the same basket as if you are qualified to pass some kind of judgment on everyone else.

You are harldy an accurate barometer for what "today's church" teaches. You are hell bent on telling other people what they do or do not believe and then you set about to knock down doctrines by attacking the values YOU assign to them. That is completely fraudulent.

[Smalcald]

That is a good question though, can people go to hell by mistake?

[EricH]

1st of all I didn't say people on these boards have taught this, I said many churches do and they do.

You said it was taught "even in this forum." So I am interested where in this forum it has been taught.

Secondly, OSAS does not teach that you can continue in sin. That is a false value that people like you erect becaue you don't understand firstly that there is no such doctrine as "OSAS." It is called eternal security. Secondly, what we teach is not that you can just continue in sin as much as you want and still be saved. What we teach is that you don't have to get resaved every time you do sin.

lol....No such teaching as OSAS, that is a laugh.

OSAS is a label that assigns a false value to Eternal Security. It is assigned by those who want to cast a false light on the doctrine. Basically people like you put the lie in our mouths and then argue against it.

You are correct, Shiloh. OSAS is a strawman. The real name of the doctrine is the perseverance of the Saints. It bears no resemblance to OSAS which is not a doctrine at all

The fact that you adhere to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints and not OSAS, does not mean that OSAS is not taught in many churches, and although perseverance of the saints teaches that God will keep you rather than the teaching of OSAS that says you cannot leave, they are both false.

And those who hald to perseverance of the saints would maintain that the doctrine you hold is false. So there you go

[EricH]

1st of all I didn't say people on these boards have taught this, I said many churches do and they do.

You said it was taught "even in this forum." So I am interested where in this forum it has been taught.

Secondly, OSAS does not teach that you can continue in sin. That is a false value that people like you erect becaue you don't understand firstly that there is no such doctrine as "OSAS." It is called eternal security. Secondly, what we teach is not that you can just continue in sin as much as you want and still be saved. What we teach is that you don't have to get resaved every time you do sin.

lol....No such teaching as OSAS, that is a laugh.

OSAS is a label that assigns a false value to Eternal Security. It is assigned by those who want to cast a false light on the doctrine. Basically people like you put the lie in our mouths and then argue against it.

You are correct, Shiloh. OSAS is a strawman. The real name of the doctrine is the perseverance of the Saints. It bears no resemblance to OSAS which is not a doctrine at all

The fact that you adhere to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints and not OSAS, does not mean that OSAS is not taught in many churches, and although perseverance of the saints teaches that God will keep you rather than the teaching of OSAS that says you cannot leave, they are both false.

It is actually taught the way you position it very few places. It is a straw man argument

[Guest shiloh357]

Whether you believe you can continue in sin or not you are just a bad as those that teach you can. Any form of eternal security, whether you call it Eternal security perseverrance of the Saints OSAS, Hyper Grace, Free Grace or Easy believeism are equally corrupt and are sending people to hell unaware.

See, therein lies the problem. You have taken a bunch of different views lumped them all together as if they were the same thing and they are not.

I did not say they were the same they are similar and they are all taught and they are all false. You claim that only your belief is taught and that others do not believe what I said they do, the fact is there are ppeople that not believe it but teach it to others.

You did not say they were similar. In fact, you drew no distinction between them. You simply lumped them together with no regard for where they differ and the fact that Eternal Security proponents reject "easy belivism" and "hyper-grace." It is an unfair classification on your part.

Once again, YOU are trying to dictate what we believe in order to have something condemn. You will listen to no amount of clarification or explanation. You have decided what we believe and you have projected your misunderstanding of our beliefs on to us and have colored us in an inaccurate manner.

Many of the greatest Bible teachers in the world who believed in eternal security or Perseverence of the Saints were also strict proponents of holiness, purity, and righteous living such as George Whitfield, Arthur Pink, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, D. L. Moody and many others. None of these men, despite believing in Eternal Security or the Perseverance of the Saints, ever taught "go out and sin as much as you want." Never did anyone walk away from their sermons convinced that they could continue living in sin.

Even modern proponents of Eternal Security like Charles Stanely John McArthur, Allister Begg, R.C. Sproul and others have never taught that being eternally secure means you can sin as much as you want.

You might find some small time preacher or some group of extremists who teach that, but they are the exception and not the rule.

[Guest shiloh357]

The real issue is that you deny that these beliefs are taught or believed at all,

No I have not denied that they are taught. I am saying that they do not comprise the genuine doctrine of Eternal Security.

By the way who is we?

Those of us who believe in Eternal Security.

You try and claim I have lumped you into some crowd but I have not I have never you said you do or do not believe any thing I have stated what is taught in many churches.

Actually what I said was that you lumped eternal security with things like Hyper-Grace and Easy believism, neither of which are part of mainline Christian thought.

Your church or personal beliefs I have not addressed except to say that your version of eternal security is just as false as the more radical position of OSAS.

Really??? Which parts???

I have never told you that you believe any certain way

What I mean is that you are applying your OWN definition of "Eternal Security" and then projecting that false perception you concocted on to people like me.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Nov 3 2008, 06:16 PM)

QUOTE

The real issue is that you deny that these beliefs are taught or believed at all,

No I have not denied that they are taught. I am saying that they do not comprise the genuine doctrine of Eternal Security.

Eternal security compromises itself.

I did not say anything about compromise. I said that teachings like Hyper-grace and easy believism do not COMPRISE (encompass, constitute) the doctrine of Eternal Security.

Mainline Christianity would could distinguish Eternal Security from OSAS

Many do. YOU don't because if you really understood it, alot of your gripes would dissolve.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Nov 3 2008, 06:16 PM)

QUOTE

Your church or personal beliefs I have not addressed except to say that your version of eternal security is just as false as the more radical position of OSAS.

Really??? Which parts???

The part that teaches you cannot turn from God after being saved even if you wanted to.

I have always taught that a person can apostacize from the faith and many well Eternal Security propenents also believe that it is possible.

I believe people that believe in eternal security believe that you cannot fall away after getting saved. Is that a false belief.

You believe... You believe incorrectly. You really don't know what Eternal Security teaches so you go off half cocked making a bunch assertions and assigning false values to a doctrine you don't really understand and really have no intention to understand.

In reference to my original post I was speaking about OSAS you claim that it is not the same as Eternal Security so you really have no claim at all.

Since I know that people like you insist on claiming that both are the same, I do have a claim.