Matthew 7: 21-23

[Guest shiloh357]

Mainline Christianity would could distinguish Eternal Security from OSAS

Many do. YOU don't because if you really understood it, alot of your gripes would dissolve.

I understand the difference, and your claim that I do not understand what is taught is the real strawman argument. Because i don't believe you, then you must claim I do not understand you. Guess again.

You have already demonstrated that you don't understand it. You refuse to believe me because like I said, your gripes would vanish. It is easier for you to persist in your error. Pride as a way of doing that... Your problems with a great deal of Eternal Security stem from incorrect perceptions of the doctrine.

the problem is that even when attempts are made to clarify, you simply brush them aside and continue with your false notions.

[Smalcald]

That is a good question though, can people go to hell by mistake?

I believe those speaking to Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 were not trying to deceive Jesus, but actually believed themselves to be saved.

I think that they did also, although I also see Shilo's argument. But regardless of their wickedness or hardness of heart, in the passage they really thought they had salvation. I am also thinking of the sorcerer who thought he could buy the power of the Holy Spirit from Peter, so in that case someone may call themselves a believer but any person who really does have faith would recognize that they are way way off what a believer even means.

But I was thinking of falling into hell with an actual faith in Christ but a lack of theological understanding? To me it really is a matter of the heart and faith, which will of course produce repentance and a desire for obedience. But is there scripture that would show that a person who has an honest faith in Christ, makes some sort of mistake, and whoops hell for you! I don't see that.

However I do believe that many who think they are saved in reality are not, however I also think it is almost impossible for a human being or the church proper to sort out exactly who that would be or not. I think we can have an indication by outward unrepentant rebellion or of course just by a life which would show no evidence of change. I think one of the main scriptural purposes of the Church is to bring these people back through the proper loving administration of Church discipline. Something that has basically been totally abandoned, at least in my Church and I rarely see it in others.

[Guest]

.... it is nice to see someone bringing reason to the table.

Amen!

Reason

Jesus

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

Is Salvation

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

To Those Who Call Upon His Name

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

The Happy Hope To Come

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:25-26

Of Trusters

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

[Guest shiloh357]

However I do believe that many who think they are saved in reality are not, however I also think it is almost impossible for a human being or the church proper to sort out exactly who that would be or not. I think we can have an indication by outward unrepentant rebellion or of course just by a life which would show no evidence of change.

Which is partly what the Matthew 7 passage highlights. While the subject matter is false prophets, the analogy of the good and evil fruit applies to those who profess Christ, but whose visible conduct says otherwise. We will know those who are truly Christ's by their life.

Having said that, we must never fall into the trap of judgmental attitudes that scrutinize people to the point that they are put under guilt and condemnation.

The problem with the notion that works are necessary for salvation is that man good works or not, is born separated from God. All of the good works that could be done in 10 lifetimes will not satisfy God's judgment.

When a person is born into this world, they are born under the bondage of sin. It is a condition of spiritual death and separation from God. Relationship with God is impossible under this condition. There is a tear in the moral fiber of the universe with man on one side and God on the other as a result of man's sin and only God is big enough to fix the tear.

God has given mankind His law to show us that we are incapable of meeting His standard of righteousness. The law serves as a mirror to show us not only the degree of our sinfulness, but it also serves to show us how utterly helpless and hopeless we are to meet God rightesouness standard.

God's rightesousness has to be fulfilled for salvation to take place. God cannot compromise righteous standard. Rather, He must augment our ability to meet that standard in order to save us.

Salvation is the product of God's rightesouness as it is reflected in His Law, being fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4). Even if you kept EVERY single commandment in the Bible perfectly, it would not matter. The reason being is that no degree of obedience on your part will fulfill the rightesouness of God's law. The reason for that is that your works no matter how holy, spiritual or righteous they appear to you, are still filthy and tainted with the stain of sin.

Jesus does the one thing mankind cannot do: He fulfills the rightesouness of the law in us, and it is Jesus, not our numerous good works, but it is Jesus alone who secures our salvation and He does so inspite of us, not because of us.

To many people want to make salvation a reward for service. They want it to make it something that a person has to deserve. Why? Because of religious vanity. The emphasis on a works-based salvation is wrought out of an attitude that says, "look at me, I am so holy, I am so much more righteous than other people." "I am going to heaven because I am wortrhy of it" "Only people like me are saved." An emphasis on works, diminishes the work of the cross and basically rejects the sufficiency of Christ.

[Smalcald]

Yes I agree.

We must consider our faith in light of our works. Works can help assure us that we are walking in the path God has given us to walk. I totally agree works cannot save us.

However I find it a very hard balance as I have a tendency to slide into the sin of judging others which is very dangerous as it is a form of pride which does blind faith. On the other hand I find it depressing the level which Christians in the US have become no different and sometimes worse than the public at large on so many sins, and so many issues; are we not to be different?

[Guest shiloh357]

On the other hand I find it depressing the level which Christians in the US have become no different and sometimes worse than the public at large on so many sins, and so many issues; are we not to be different?

Yes, but my Pastor was talking about that the other day. We would be surprised to know the number of professing Christians who claim Christianity on the basis that they mentally assent to the Chrisitan religion.

What I mean is, they go to church therefore the are "Christians." Their profession of faith has nothing to do with a real heart transformation or a true relationship with God. They simply follow family tradition, the believe in God, but they have never really given their heart over to Jesus.

That would account in a large way to why so many professing Christians still continue living in sin.

[Guest shiloh357]

On the other hand I find it depressing the level which Christians in the US have become no different and sometimes worse than the public at large on so many sins, and so many issues; are we not to be different?

Yes, but my Pastor was talking about that the other day. We would be surprised to know the number of professing Christians who claim Christianity on the basis that they mentally assent to the Chrisitan religion.

What I mean is, they go to church therefore the are "Christians." Their profession of faith has nothing to do with a real heart transformation or a true relationship with God. They simply follow family tradition, the believe in God, but they have never really given their heart over to Jesus.

That would account in a large way to why so many professing Christians still continue living in sin.

On this we can agree, however were we disagree is that there are Pastors out there that tell their congregation that this is enough and that they are really Christians, when you and I both realized that they are not.

No that is not what we disagree about. What you are claiming is everyone outside your little holiness circle is living in sin and all their pastors are telling them they can live in sin all they want and it is okay. You then go on to label this as "Eternal Security."

What I oppose is your attempt to define a doctrine by the lowest common denominator.

[Guest shiloh357]

On the other hand I find it depressing the level which Christians in the US have become no different and sometimes worse than the public at large on so many sins, and so many issues; are we not to be different?

Yes, but my Pastor was talking about that the other day. We would be surprised to know the number of professing Christians who claim Christianity on the basis that they mentally assent to the Chrisitan religion.

What I mean is, they go to church therefore the are "Christians." Their profession of faith has nothing to do with a real heart transformation or a true relationship with God. They simply follow family tradition, the believe in God, but they have never really given their heart over to Jesus.

That would account in a large way to why so many professing Christians still continue living in sin.

On this we can agree, however were we disagree is that there are Pastors out there that tell their congregation that this is enough and that they are really Christians, when you and I both realized that they are not.

No that is not what we disagree about. What you are claiming is everyone outside your little holiness circle is living in sin and all their pastors are telling them they can live in sin all they want and it is okay. You then go on to label this as "Eternal Security."

What I oppose is your attempt to define a doctrine by the lowest common denominator.

I never said either of those things, either you do not read my post, badly misinterpret them, or are purposely slandering me with false accusations. In any case I realize there are many people outside of my circle (which by the way is not ''holiness'') are living for God and many of them that believe in eternal security are doing there best to please God as well. Nor do I believe ''ALL'' pastor teach any thing, I realize there is a wide verity of beliefs taught and there is very little unity in teaching, I do not think ''ALL'' pastors teach any particular doctrine, much less OSAS and or Hyper Grace, but there are many that do. Your resistance to accept that is your problem not mine.

What's the matter, Ezek?? Over Generalizations, assigning incorrect values and misrepresenting your oppononent isn't so great when YOU'RE on the receiving end is it?

Point made.

[Guest shiloh357]

I have not slandered you nor have I ever generalized your beliefs.

Yes, you have. In fact that is pretty much all you do. You said in reference to me:

Your church or personal beliefs I have not addressed except to say that your version of eternal security is just as false as the more radical position of OSAS.

My Response:

Really??? Which parts???

Your misrepresentation:

The part that teaches you cannot turn from God after being saved even if you wanted to.

That was something I never said, but you attributed to me any way. Furthermore, you have attempted to define what I believe by radical, extremist doctrines that have little to nothing to do with Eternal Security. You have continuously applied inaccurate standards and made false, misleading statements repeatedly.

The problem is that to treat the doctrine fairly would require a degree integrity and honesty that you are unwilling to face up to.

[Guest]

Pastors that teach.... hyper grace teach than there will be no consequence for sin and that teaching is causing many to go to hell unaware of their need for repentance....

Hyper Grace

You Are So Cool Beloved

Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus

God's Grace

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:8

Hyper = Extremely Active

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,

and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2

Grace = Free And Unmerited Favor Of God

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

So Hyper Grace Is The Extremely Active, Free And Unmerited Favor Of God

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,

piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,

and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12

And To Truly Repent Is To Totally Turn From Evil Unbelief In God's Hyper Grace And To Rejoice In The Blood Of The Lamb

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:12-13

And To Daily Use That Hyper Trust, That Extremely Active Fearless Confident In Our Heavenly Father The Holy Spirit Gives To Those Who Love Jesus

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

Who Trust God's Love, Who Trust God's Grace, Who Trust The Holy Blood Of The Lamb Of God, Who Trust The Testimony Of The Holy Ghost, Who Trust The Bible

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 1:17

Who Trust The LORD Jesus Christ

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 1:5

Thank You Abba Holy Father

Thank You LORD Jesus

Yes Yes Holy Spirit

Yes And Amen

In Jesus

Love

Joe

Thank You Dear Brother

I Agree That God's Grace Is So Extremely Active So Hyper As To Turn Hate Filled Hearts Of Stone Into Living Hearts Of Love And Worship

Giving The Truster A Heart Of Love For The LORD Jesus And For His Kids And For The Lost And For The Helpless And For The Unlovable

And All Because Of God's Astonishing Hyper Grace Because Of Calvary Because He First Love Us Because Of Jesus

So Some May Have A Tulip And Others May Have A Daisy But We Have The Lilly And The Rose

I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys.

As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters.

Song of Solomon 2:1-2

I Love You LORD I Love You

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Call

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

And Trust

Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalms 139:23-24

And Trust

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:5-6

And Trust

Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:9-10

And Trust

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11

Because We Know God

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord,

I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is,

there is no more offering

for sin. Hebrews 10:15-17

Because He Loves Us So

Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!

Glory! Glory! Glory!

Maranatha!

Amen!