By What Authority?

[Guest Strservant]

Stevehut, if I'm reading Nicholas' post correctly it looks as though there are verses in the NT that ARE quotes from the apocryphacal books.

Charlie,

Please continue to have an open mind but also know ALL the facts before making a final decision. The oldest known listing of the Old Testament dated AD 170 does NOT have the apochryphal books in it. This list was by Melito of Sardis. To add to this in the 3rd century Origin and Tertullian, both of whom are recognized even by the RCC as early chruch fathers, rejected the apochrphal books as inspired Scripture.

Furthermore, in all the list provided above by Nicholas, none of them are direct quotes. Of the 39 books we accept from the Old Testament only 1 or 2 are not directly quoted from by Jesus and or the Apostles. While you are correct that Jews do not accept the New Testament they worship the same God (The Father) as we do and the Old Testament is the accepted books on how our God dealt with Israel, His chosen people.

As for Constantine bashing, I have not said anything on this subject but my opinion is that some people are just in the right place at the right time and for whatever reason seem to make the decisions that put them as a major figure in history.

I hope this helps you to better understand the history of cannonization. It is an outright fabrication to say that everything was settled until Luther came along. To say that is stretching things is to be polite. It's stretching things beyond any recognition of what it truly started to be.

Respectfully,

Strservant

[truseek]

From my understanding the reaosning for not including them is this.

They are not quoted by Jesus or the apostles. It is my understaning that Enoch is quoted in Jude, and I have heard that it may actually be quoted 200+ times in the NT. I am not familiar with Enoch and cannot support or deny this claim.

None of the books were accepted by the Jews. Romans 3:1-2 is thought to sipport this thinking:

What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

While early Greek manuscripts have been found which contain the Apocrypha, none of them match the list of the RCC, and none of them contain all of the books. Also, only four of them are included in these manuscripts, though I cannot recall which.

The New Testamen church has no say as to what is included in Old Teastament sciptures, it had already been decided.

Some of the apocryphal books were found in the Dead Sea scrolls, yes. If we are to include the Dead Sea scrolls in their entirety in scripture, however, we would have a massive Bible. More telling is the fact that the Hebrew scriptures were set apart from the rest of this library, and written on special parchment. There were commentaries found regarding the Hebrew scriptures, none of them touch on the Apocrypha.

None of them were written by prophets, there is no fulfilled prophecy in any of the books. Jerome, the Roman Catholic Biblical authority who translated the Scriptures rejected the apocrypha outright, and initially even refused to translate it at all!

the only major aberration, theologically speaking is 2 Maccabees' affirmation of prayers for the dead. If the RCC were to include all availabe apocryphal books, they would contradict this teaching, as 2 or 4 Esdras speaks against this practice.

They also contain historical, geographical and chronological errors.

Also, there are some passages which would seem to directly contradict the canon.

Salvation by works:

Ecclesiasticus 3:30, "Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin. Tobit 12:8-9, 17, "It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin."

Magic:

Tobit 6:5-8, "If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore."

Yours in Christ

Truseek

[Guest yod]

I truly believe the Holy Spirit was alive and well the first 1500 years of Christianity and the apocrypha was accepted during that time. After that much time I don't see how anybody really had the authority to remove it, anymore than someone today has the authority to change a lot of scripture. I think there's another thread about that.

I wonder if it was kind an "add-on" that everyone who owned a bible (before there were printing presses) understood was controversial? I mean...what if it was kind of like "charts & maps" are today?

I really need to buy a copy of the apocrypha.

I've got one and it's where I read the account of the Battle of the Maccabees where Hanukkah comes from. It was a real inspiring story!

But I can't think in terms of doctrine when I read it. These are just ancient books that give us a glimpse of the world in the time between the Testaments.

Plus there are some things that sound like fairy tales...it's been a long time since I read it so I don't remember which book(s) at the moment.

One of these books is where the concept of paying your way out of Pergatory comes from...

[truseek]

One of these books is where the concept of paying your way out of Pergatory comes from...

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, "2,000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."

Edited June 30, 2004 by truseek

[Adstar]

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, "2,000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."

buying salvation....

Acts 8:20

But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Catsmeow]

Good Samaritan (or anyone who can answer): I think he makes a good point at least...I'm not a scholar so I really don't understand why they removed the Apocrypha BUT....

does anyone know what the Apocrypha had in it that was in conflict with the remaining 66 books of the scripture?

PS: BTW, it seems that Martin Luther had a real problem with the book of James because of the faith without works issue, according to theologic reviews I've read.

[Catsmeow]

One of these books is where the concept of paying your way out of Pergatory comes from...

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, "2,000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."

Buying indulgences.

While I was raised RCC, this is one reason I knew I was in the wrong place. To pay money for 'salvation' is an abomination to God!

He would be absolutely filled with wrath over such vile teachings...it's predatory, feeding on the grief of widows and orphans and filling the coffers of the clergy with "indulgences"...(an appropriate name, if you ask me)....

It seems the suffering of those who've lost loved ones are gouged a second time by preying on their emotional misery and prying every last dime out of them.

Have people no fear of God?

[Catsmeow]

After seeing the reference to Maccabees and the 2,000 silver pieces "sin offering" for the dead, it's obvious this is false teachings and lies....

There is no other offering apart from the blood atonement of the Cross.

[stevehut]

PS: BTW, it seems that Martin Lutherhad a real problem with the book of James because of the faith without works issue

Yup.

He even tore the pages of James out of his Bible.

Ironically, though, his own personal life did not bear it out. Apart from Indulgences, he was basically Catholic to his dying day. I can't imagine a more works-oriented theology.

He still believed in baptismal regeneration, penance, etc.

[truseek]

Martin Luther did, indeed have problems with the book of James. I understand that it was due to some percieved salvation by works issue. I don't think that James indicates that works are necessary for salvation. Justification is by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone. True faith always neccessarily and inevitably leads to a changed life, made manifest by works. The important thing to realize here is that works are not the grounds for justification, but a manifestation of a spiritually changed life.

Yours in Christ

Truseek