God and evil.

[kross]

I haven't read a lot on where/how evil came about - there are just TOO many books to read at the moment....

I HAVE read though, that evil is a key factor in using/having "freewill".....(remember, these are not my personal views - I am just discussing what I have read).

What I put forth in the original post and now this, I have never come across before.

Isaiah 45 says that God creates evil. The Hebrew word is 'ra'. That sounds scary. To get around the thought that God created evil, we try to say he means calamity, but 'ra' means EVIL. So how can we justify the idea of a Holy God creating moral evil? God created the PRINCIPLE of evil. Not evil deeds, but the moral absolute behind them that defines what evil IS. God created the standard of what is evil.

I have been in one of these discussions before on this board and have been called some pretty ugly things, but that never stopped me.

GOD created Satan. Some say HE created Lucifer and Lucifer made a feee will choice. Fine. But GOD created Satan knowing Satan's nature and knowing what Satan would become and and HE knew this before He created him. So, as far as I am concerned, GOD created him to be what he is.

GOD does not have to have evil in HIM to know what evil is and HE does not have to have evil in HIM to create HIS exact opposit.

People want to say that GOD did not intend... If it is here, GOD intended it to be here. HE is, was and always will be in control of every aspect of HIS creation. Even if HE chooses to remain "hands off" and let free will run rampant (which the Bible says HE doesn't) HE still put everything in motion, every detail, that lead to sin and the fall with full knowledge that it was going to happen even before HE made any of it. Thus, it was HIS intention.

All of which is to glorify all of what GOD is. Now, this is one thing that I know to be an absolute truth. I accept that many do not see this and do not agree. I am making the statement and putting out there. I am not going to debate it or argue about it or even try to prove it.

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD has made all things for HIMSELF..." I could stop there, but; "yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

[kross]

I have read this (not in exact words, but same context),

Because of evil in the World - we see the Majesty and Goodness of God MORE than if there was no evil present -

I had to think about that a few times to let it sink in...

BUT

then I thought of Heaven - and the absence of evil - we will be LIVING and being completely sustained by God's goodness - we will SEE and be AWARE of His Majesty - no need for evil to prove it.

It is the evil that is one the earth that is going to make heaven and GOD seem so good. That is why HE created it this way instead of just giving us heaven.

Do you really think He NEEDED anything? And that evil was created for the purpose of highlighting God's Goodness? hmmm

See that's where it doesn't gel for me Kross.

I'm more of the mind that evil was a ramification of the rebellion of Lucifer before Creation as we know it (all MY opinion only) and sin is the "activated" consequence of the disobedience in Eden...

That is because you do not believe Satan was cdreated to be exactly what he is. He did not surprise GOD by becoming something GOD did not know he would be. He did not act outside of his nature and his nature was created in him by THE CREATOR.

As you and I both know, we are far apart on this point. But evil is part of creation. It is therefore something created. Everything that was created, was created by HIM and through HIM and without HIM nothing that was created was created. I am stopping at this point because I do not think it will hurt you or your walk with JESUS to not believe this and I have no real need to try to make you believe it.

HIS peace and love to you.

PS. Thanks for the drama queen statement and your discretion on that.

Gonna add something. Hope you did not already read this.

Evil is not necessary to show GOD's goodness. I have sort of made that statement and it is not accurate. Evil is there to show GOD's wrath. In the process, GOD's mercy and grace will be magnified in the light of HIS wrath and vengance. But evil is there to show GOD's wrath and salvation will show HIS grace.

[Guest HIS girl]

I haven't read a lot on where/how evil came about - there are just TOO many books to read at the moment....

I HAVE read though, that evil is a key factor in using/having "freewill".....(remember, these are not my personal views - I am just discussing what I have read).

What I put forth in the original post and now this, I have never come across before.

Isaiah 45 says that God creates evil. The Hebrew word is 'ra'. That sounds scary. To get around the thought that God created evil, we try to say he means calamity, but 'ra' means EVIL. So how can we justify the idea of a Holy God creating moral evil? God created the PRINCIPLE of evil. Not evil deeds, but the moral absolute behind them that defines what evil IS. God created the standard of what is evil.

I have been in one of these discussions before on this board and have been called some pretty ugly things, but that never stopped me.

GOD created Satan. Some say HE created Lucifer and Lucifer made a feee will choice. Fine. But GOD created Satan knowing Satan's nature and knowing what Satan would become and and HE knew this before He created him. So, as far as I am concerned, GOD created him to be what he is.

GOD does not have to have evil in HIM to know what evil is and HE does not have to have evil in HIM to create HIS exact opposit.

People want to say that GOD did not intend... If it is here, GOD intended it to be here. HE is, was and always will be in control of every aspect of HIS creation. Even if HE chooses to remain "hands off" and let free will run rampant (which the Bible says HE doesn't) HE still put everything in motion, every detail, that lead to sin and the fall with full knowledge that it was going to happen even before HE made any of it. Thus, it was HIS intention.

All of which is to glorify all of what GOD is. Now, this is one thing that I know to be an absolute truth. I accept that many do not see this and do not agree. I am making the statement and putting out there. I am not going to debate it or argue about it or even try to prove it.

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD has made all things for HIMSELF..." I could stop there, but; "yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

It's understandable that folks do not want to associate God as being the Creator of evil - I completely see that point of view.

However - we do not have God's insight and foresight.

The verse in Proverbs is thought provoking -

I feel that there are consequences to anything if we go against the grain/expected. It's a natural occurence. Which leads me to believe that when Lucifer rose up against God, the consequence of THAT rebellion was evil....

[Botz]

You know mental illnesses etc are manifestations of demon posession IMO - the scientific/medical communities scoff at this notion but I am a big believer of it.

The general thinking of anyone who has my point of view is either "they must be a half wit or have archaic beliefs and needs to get with the times".

I believe some of them are...there seems to be a fine line between an actual physiological symptom, or something like a chemical inbalance, and similar demonic symptoms...hence what we call epilepsy, does not necessarily mean it is demonic, or even the same as recorded in Scripture.

I think I would wear the title 'Half wit' as well as you.

Half wits unite!!

What makes epilepsy today different to that mentioned in the Bible? Do you not think it actually is epilepsy in the Bible?

I don't know for sure...is the simple answer....an epileptic has a fit grande or petite mal, and the biblical accounts of epileptic fits are not necessarily the same for todays symptoms...but that is just my opinion.

You could extend that to deafness and dumbness.

When do you confront a demon, and when do you confront a disease.

Unless we have discernment we can tackle the symptoms wrongly, and it is harder for faith to arise...but we are now getting into the area where a persons life needs to be full of constant prayer and fasting as a matter of course, if they expect to see these things overcome through the word of faith...it is very seldom that they are removed otherwise, except by the grace and mercy of G-d. Mostly the Church has faith for headaches, period pains, help with exams and safe travel...

[germanJoy]

Very interesting idea Joy...will have to look into it more as it cuts across what most of us have traditionally believed...probably without much Scriptural investigation...have you any sources for this idea?

In Messiah. Botz

Everything I write at any forum comes directly from me (if not I would specify the source) and the Bible is usually my only source. The book of Revelation names Satan, the devil, as the serpent of old . Yet there is no 100% indication whether it refers to the same serpent at the Garden of Eden. Besides this, Satan and his angels remained in the heavenlies (note there are stages of heaven), once in a while appearing before God to accuse the brethren. See also the book of Job (Job 2:1) where Satan appeared before God with the sons of God to present himself.

9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

12"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time." Rev. 12:9-12

Quoted from Botz

If one third of the host of Heaven was banished from the dwelling place of G-d....where did they descend to? Was earth already created, and mankind not?...

Satan is at times in heaven and sometimes roams around the earth. The stage of heaven where he dwells is not where God dwells. Although he presents himself before God now and then, the Scripture does not tell that he dwells where God's throne is. Additionally, the Apostle Paul wrote about the third heaven. This establishes the fact that there is a first and a second heaven.

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor. 12:2

Edited February 22, 2009 by germanJoy

[germanJoy]

It's understandable that folks do not want to associate God as being the Creator of evil - I completely see that point of view.

However - we do not have God's insight and foresight.

The verse in Proverbs is thought provoking -

I feel that there are consequences to anything if we go against the grain/expected. It's a natural occurence. Which leads me to believe that when Lucifer rose up against God, the consequence of THAT rebellion was evil....

One should not think that God needs to create Satan to implement evil...that is a wrong notion. God had not needed Satan and his cohorts to send an evil spirit to those He wants to torture like Saul in the OT.

[Botz]

Very interesting idea Joy...will have to look into it more as it cuts across what most of us have traditionally believed...probably without much Scriptural investigation...have you any sources for this idea?

In Messiah. Botz

Everything I write at any forum comes directly from me (if not I would specify the source) and the Bible is usually my only source. The book of Revelation names Satan, the devil, as the serpent of old . Yet there is no 100% indication whether it refers to the same serpent at the Garden of Eden. Besides this, Satan and his angels remained in the heavenlies (note there are stages of heaven), once in a while appearing before God to accuse the brethren. See also the book of Job (Job 2:1) where Satan appeared before God with the sons of God to present himself.

9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

12"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time." Rev. 12:9-12

Quoted from Botz

If one third of the host of Heaven was banished from the dwelling place of G-d....where did they descend to? Was earth already created, and mankind not?...

Satan is at times in heaven and sometimes roams around the earth. The stage of heaven where he dwells is not where God dwells. Although he presents himself before God now and then, the Scripture does not tell that he dwells where God's throne is. Additionally, the Apostle Paul wrote about the third heaven. This establishes the fact that there is a first and a second heaven.

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor. 12:2

Traditionally I think the 3rd Heaven is generally a reference to the dwelling place of G-d and His angels, and all other created beings...the 1st heaven being confined to our Earth and atmosphere, and the 2nd to space and the Universe...I have not heard it mentioned as though there are three spheres of Heaven...but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

[Guest HIS girl]

It's understandable that folks do not want to associate God as being the Creator of evil - I completely see that point of view.

However - we do not have God's insight and foresight.

The verse in Proverbs is thought provoking -

I feel that there are consequences to anything if we go against the grain/expected. It's a natural occurence. Which leads me to believe that when Lucifer rose up against God, the consequence of THAT rebellion was evil....

One should not think that God needs to create Satan to implement evil...that is a wrong notion. God had not needed Satan and his cohorts to send an evil spirit to those He wants to torture like Saul in the OT.

germanJoy

1 Samuel 16 v 14: But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him. NKJ Study Bible.

NKJ SB notes: The distressing spirit from the LORD illustrates that in the absence of the Spirit of God, men are vulnerable to evil spirits. God is sovereign in all realms: physical and spiritual. However, unless we submit to Him and His rule, we are no longer protected from evil and its destructive effects. It is in this sense that God is said to have sent the spirit. Saul is not just suffering from a depressed mental state with periods of extreme anxiety; he is being driven by an evil spirit.

If you take the time to read my previous responses you may well see that I said: evil is the ramification of the rebellion of Lucifer..that is my opinion only...I wouldn't think it is too wrong for me to think that OR too far fetched....I don't think God created evil for the sake of creating it - I think it was a consequence which is a natural occurence/response...

[Guest HIS girl]

'Botz'

I don't know for sure...is the simple answer....an epileptic has a fit grande or petite mal, and the biblical accounts of epileptic fits are not necessarily the same for todays symptoms...but that is just my opinion.

You could extend that to deafness and dumbness.

When do you confront a demon, and when do you confront a disease.

Unless we have discernment we can tackle the symptoms wrongly, and it is harder for faith to arise...but we are now getting into the area where a persons life needs to be full of constant prayer and fasting as a matter of course, if they expect to see these things overcome through the word of faith...it is very seldom that they are removed otherwise, except by the grace and mercy of G-d. Mostly the Church has faith for headaches, period pains, help with exams and safe travel...

LOL..ain't that the truth!!

In Matthew 17 v 14-21, where the disciples couldn't cure (cast out the demon) in the boy (he was epileptic) because this particular situation called for prayer and fasting, shows that similar looking illnesses called for different remedies...even Jesus' miracles were different in response EG: dirt/saliva salve, touch, belief, verbal command etc...

[Guest HIS girl]

I have read this (not in exact words, but same context),

Because of evil in the World - we see the Majesty and Goodness of God MORE than if there was no evil present -

I had to think about that a few times to let it sink in...

BUT

then I thought of Heaven - and the absence of evil - we will be LIVING and being completely sustained by God's goodness - we will SEE and be AWARE of His Majesty - no need for evil to prove it.

It is the evil that is one the earth that is going to make heaven and GOD seem so good. That is why HE created it this way instead of just giving us heaven.

Do you really think He NEEDED anything? And that evil was created for the purpose of highlighting God's Goodness? hmmm

See that's where it doesn't gel for me Kross.

I'm more of the mind that evil was a ramification of the rebellion of Lucifer before Creation as we know it (all MY opinion only) and sin is the "activated" consequence of the disobedience in Eden...

That is because you do not believe Satan was cdreated to be exactly what he is. He did not surprise GOD by becoming something GOD did not know he would be. He did not act outside of his nature and his nature was created in him by THE CREATOR.

As you and I both know, we are far apart on this point. But evil is part of creation. It is therefore something created. Everything that was created, was created by HIM and through HIM and without HIM nothing that was created was created. I am stopping at this point because I do not think it will hurt you or your walk with JESUS to not believe this and I have no real need to try to make you believe it.

HIS peace and love to you.

PS. Thanks for the drama queen statement and your discretion on that.

Gonna add something. Hope you did not already read this.

Evil is not necessary to show GOD's goodness. I have sort of made that statement and it is not accurate. Evil is there to show GOD's wrath. In the process, GOD's mercy and grace will be magnified in the light of HIS wrath and vengance. But evil is there to show GOD's wrath and salvation will show HIS grace.

kross

The drama queen statement was a made in good humour since on another post you said you were on TV? It was a joke and no ill will intended at all!! I hope you are big enough and ugly enough to appreciate it!! (an Aussie saying..LOL..)

I believe wholeheartedly what it says in John 1 v 1-4. I have NEVER doubted that. Don't you think the rebellion of Lucifer activated evil, hence Lucifer is now satan?