God and evil.

[Botz]

='Preachbill'

Yes, I believe that God put those trees to test ADAM and EVE,

Hmmm...I have to mull this over for a while....

The trees were there before the serpent (satan) rocked up? Yes?

So I'm thinking - everything was fine with Adam/Eve AND the trees UNTIL satan turned up.....

I'm still mulling this over....

Which also begs the question...How did Satan gain access to the garden of Eden into which the L-rd God sovereignly placed Adam so that he could have a job to do for Him as a gardener and horticulturist?

Then you also have to think everything was fine till Adams soulmate (ribmate) Eve showed up, who seemed to make a more accessible target for the subtle approach of Satan.

If you also bear in mind that the war in Heaven that saw a third of the heavenly creatures thrown out, was instrumental in the fallen beings coming to earth...which must also give a idea of the time-scale...because they could not be dumped here unless earth was already formed and had been spoken into existence, as the universe had not been created. They lived in a different sphere of existence.

Hmmm much to mull about.

[Guest HIS girl]

='Preachbill'

Yes, I believe that God put those trees to test ADAM and EVE,

Hmmm...I have to mull this over for a while....

The trees were there before the serpent (satan) rocked up? Yes?

So I'm thinking - everything was fine with Adam/Eve AND the trees UNTIL satan turned up.....

I'm still mulling this over....

Which also begs the question...How did Satan gain access to the garden of Eden into which the L-rd God sovereignly placed Adam so that he could have a job to do for Him as a gardener and horticulturist?

Then you also have to think everything was fine till Adams soulmate (ribmate) Eve showed up, who seemed to make a more accessible target for the subtle approach of Satan.

If you also bear in mind that the war in Heaven that saw a third of the heavenly creatures thrown out, was instrumental in the fallen beings coming to earth...which must also give a idea of the time-scale...because they could not be dumped here unless earth was already formed and had been spoken into existence, as the universe had not been created. They lived in a different sphere of existence.

Hmmm much to mull about.

You are right Botz - so many angles...

See satan got to Eve when she was without Adam whilst near THE tree....Adam should have been with her...however Eve was aware of the consequences...after hearing satans lie - the fruit of the tree looked desirable to eat...did it look like that BEFORE I wonder? hmm

Also, in an earlier post, I had brought up the idea of maybe the tree being in existence BECAUSE of the rebellion of Lucifer in Heaven...and was the tree now "activated" sin-wise because of the acceptance of satans lie and the eating of the fruit...? Would the scenario have been different if only Eve had fallen?

Many questions but are the answers necessary? Maybe not.

[Botz]

His girl...

See satan got to Eve when she was without Adam whilst near THE tree....Adam should have been with her...however Eve was aware of the consequences...after hearing satans lie - the fruit of the tree looked desirable to eat...did it look like that BEFORE I wonder? hmm

Also, in an earlier post, I had brought up the idea of maybe the tree being in existence BECAUSE of the rebellion of Lucifer in Heaven...and was the tree now "activated" sin-wise because of the acceptance of satans lie and the eating of the fruit...? Would the scenario have been different if only Eve had fallen?

Many questions but are the answers necessary? Maybe not.

Why on earth should Adam have been with Eve...she is an independent being, capable of her own thoughts and decisions..they were not joined at the hip...maybe what she should have done was leg it back to Adam as soon as the Serpent started to speak to her as though he knew better than G-d.

As for how did Satan get there, one could ask where is Satan now? Is he stoking up the fires of Hell, which popular belief satirises, or does he exist here on earth, in exactly the same way he made his appearance in the garden of Eden...eg he is confined to this universe, but is not confined to this dimension...he can go to and fro from the spiritual realm to the earthly realm, and maybe at appointed times (as shown in Job) he has to appear before G-d to give an account of his activities.

I agree with what you say about the fruit...part of what Satan did was focus Eves attention on it...which is part of the way mankind is tempted in all areas of his life to this day.

Within this account we may not get all the answers...but we can glean and harvest a huge amount of spiritual and practical lessons about the relationship of man to G-d and the spiritual dimension of our own existence...it is a never-ending study..not just a quest for knowledge...but also a thirst quenching spiritual gulp of truth.

[Guest HIS girl]

='Preachbill'

First...God created everything Good!!,

Amen!

Second..You cant have the fall of Lucifer before the Fall of man...Sin and Death came by Adam, not prior by Lucifer, that would put Death in the world prior to the fall.

No, what I am saying is the tree was in existence BECAUSE of the rebellion of Lucifer and the sin was activated BECASUE of the disobedience ...falling for the lies of satan.

Third: Eve did not see the creative power of God, Only Adam did in the Garden when God showed Adam all the animals and Adam named them and could not find a mate. Eve was the last thing God created for Adam.

I know Eve was created AFTER Adam - I meant Eve was without Adam as in Adam not being WITH her physically at the tree but doing something else - she was vulnerable.

Fourth: When Satan came to Eve, he got Eve to 1: Doubt Gods word. 2. said she would not surly die. 3. told her that she would be like gods, knowing good and evil.

I also agree with that..

[Guest HIS girl]

='Botz'

Why on earth should Adam have been with Eve...she is an independent being, capable of her own thoughts and decisions..they were not joined at the hip...maybe what she should have done was leg it back to Adam as soon as the Serpent started to speak to her as though he knew better than G-d.

Well I am not going to get into an argument about who's to blame but I must say we have to take into account the "way" satan lied to Eve - he is cunning and crafty and would have pulled out all the stops - not only would he upset the apple cart with God and mankind BUT also man and woman...and boy do we see that still in play today....disunity...anything to disrupt a relationship and happy home/family ..which a family is based on the relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirt...God, Man and Woman.

or does he exist here on earth, in exactly the same way he made his appearance in the garden of Eden...eg he is confined to this universe, but is not confined to this dimension...he can go to and fro from the spiritual realm to the earthly realm, and maybe at appointed times (as shown in Job) he has to appear before G-d to give an account of his activities.

I lean more towards this...

This is interesting...Genesis 2 v 6: So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of it's fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate."

So WAS Adam there all along? Maybe he was..

It looks like the tree had everything going for it- good for food, pleasant to look at and desirable to make one wise...

the only thing was - it was not available to them...isn't that typical of things today? It looks right so it must be right?? Not much has changed in THAT respect..

Within this account we may not get all the answers...but we can glean and harvest a huge amount of spiritual and practical lessons about the relationship of man to G-d and the spiritual dimension of our own existence...it is a never-ending study..not just a quest for knowledge...but also a thirst quenching spiritual gulp of truth.

True!!

[mizzdy]

Which also begs the question...How did Satan gain access to the garden of Eden into which the L-rd God sovereignly placed Adam so that he could have a job to do for Him as a gardener and horticulturist?

Isn't there a verse somewhere that say that satan was in the garden before that maybe in Eze? But I don't think that Eve saw it as unusual for him to be there as it seems she was comfortable in talking to him. Its a stretch I suppose to think that but when I read the story its almost like she is talking to someone she knows.

[Bold Believer]

In an earlier post I asked the following question:

Why would God place the trees in such close proximity to Adam and Eve? He is all knowing and must foresee the consequence of placing such tempting fruit where they can reach it.

He could have placed those trees in an inaccessible ravine or on the other side of the world, or on another world -- there seem to be many out there. Instead God makes the trees easy to get at and allows a talking serpent to live in the garden with them. I can only think that God must have expected and wanted the fruit to be too tempting to resist.

The Greeks have Pandora, and I imagine other cultures posses stories explaining the presence of evil and suffering as well. If the intent of this story is to explain the presence of suffering in the world it would do no good for the advancement of the plot to place the fruit out of reach of those who must eat it.

Comments?

I was reviewing this thread and came across this and another statement regarding 'free will'.

I find it interesting that Eve had to be DECEIVED into eating of the forbidden fruit. This implies that she would not have done so on her own initiative. Likewise, Adam was around the trees for however long before her deception and he never on his own went and disturbed them. It was not until after Eve ate and did not die that Adam partook of the fruit, and it was HIS ACTION, not hers, that brought sin into the world.

As for free will, Adam and Eve were the only two beings who ever had true free will, and only Adam violated his. Eve didn't violate free will, she was deceived into doing what she did (hence a lesser punishment). All subsequent offspring of Adam received sinful will from Papa Adam. This sinful will overpowers our ability to make decent choices. Our nature is bent toward sin. We can only do as our nature permits us to do. In the flesh, our nature is sinful. So then it's not a matter of free will, but FREED WILL. Our will to sin must be freed by belief in Christ, which can only be received through being drawn by the Father and being given faith by the Father as a gift (John and Ephesians).

There are many myths which I believe have roots in the Creation account. They were most likely passed down by descendants of Adam and after the Flood, Noah, and got corrupted by our sinful nature. Pandora's box is just one of them, the Titans another, and the Flood yet another.

As for Satan's current location. In the air around the earth, busily gathering Magog to battle against the Holy City.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Bold Believer

[Guest HIS girl]

'Bold Believer'

As for free will, Adam and Eve were the only two beings who ever had true free will, and only Adam violated his. Eve didn't violate free will, she was deceived into doing what she did (hence a lesser punishment).

I disagree - Eve used her freewill by making a choice to eat by the way OF BEING deceived by the serpent's lies.

You may as well say Adam was ALSO deceived by eating because 'Eve didn't die" immediately - God NEVER said they would die immediatley but He did say they WOULD die and that IS what happened during the course of time - they were both deceived AND used freewill.

IMO, Adam's curse weigh heavier because he was the "head" of his "household". Mind you, Eve didn't get off too lightly -

There are many myths which I believe have roots in the Creation account. They were most likely passed down by descendants of Adam and after the Flood, Noah, and got corrupted by our sinful nature. Pandora's box is just one of them, the Titans another, and the Flood yet another.

I believe the Flood as an actual event that took place in history - there is a massive amount of evidence to support it - BUT I am NOT going to get into that on this thread.

[Bold Believer]

The Flood was no myth, it happened, what I mean is that there are non-Biblical accounts of it, most famous being the Gilgamesh Epic.

[Guest HIS girl]

Oh, I see...got ya!!