JoeCanada

Because I see the first 6 seals as 'judgments' against the Jews and Christians predominately. When the 7th seal is opened it begins the Day of the Lord, God's Wrath. Just because you make a point doesn't make that point legit. The trumpets and vials are God's Wrath. The seals are Satan's wrath. God does not share the stage with Satan. God alone will be glorified in that day.

Second 'appearance of Jesus'..... Rev 6:16.... The earth dwellers don't just imagine Jesus is ready to bring wrath upon them, they obviously see Him in the heaven when the sky is split apart.... Third 'appearance of Jesus' .... "Who is this who comes from Edom"...Isa 63:1... Jesus marching toward Jerusalem from Edom, gathering His people along the way who were dispersed when told to flee at the AofD Fourth 'appearance of Jesus'.... "because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign".... Rev 11:17.... At the inauguration of Jesus at the 7th trumpet, Jesus has been given the kingdom of the earth and is reigning in Israel..... also Ezek 39:7 Fifth 'appearance of Jesus' .... "And I saw heaven opened and behold, a white horse...' ...Rev 19:11>....Jesus leads the armies of heaven into battle. There could be another one as well. In Rev 14:14, Jesus again on a cloud, reaping the earth with a sickle..... and another angel also with a sickle reaping the clusters from the vine of the earth for the winepress of the wrath of God. This one, if the earth dwellers actually see Him, would come between the second and third 'appearance of Jesus'. (Jesus does not use a sickle when He/the angels gather His elect at the 6th seal) So in essence, there could be 6 appearances of Jesus. The 'second coming' is a multi-faceted event.... not just a one time 'appearance.' Like I have said before.... It will be the GREATEST SHOW ON EARTH

Verses 4-8 are talking about the 'birth pangs'..... like Jesus said in verse 8 of Matt 24. What are these 'birth pangs'? I can't see them as being equated with the disciples lives and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Sure, there may have been a 'false Christ'. But did they hear of 'wars and rumors of wars'?.... Maybe, but in the singular 'war' and 'rumor'. Did they see or hear of 'nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom' rising? Did they experience 'famines (plural) and earthquakes (plural)? I would say that for the most part, the answer is NO. So what was Jesus referring to? Are they the times just before the coming of the Messiah at the end of the age? Probably and most likely. Maybe .... Jesus was referring to the Church which was about to be born. The Church would then be like a baby, toddler, teenager, young adult, mature adult.... it would develop and mature..... and then go thru the birth pangs.... just before the return of the Messiah.

Using that same logic..... Since the 7 vials emit from the 7th trumpet.... and.... The 7 trumpets emit from the 7th seal..... then the 7 seals IN and OF THEMSELVES contain the full Wrath of God. This is, after all, your logic....Right?

So.... Rev man.... I know from past conversations that you equate the armies of heaven returning with Christ as the church. Are you now really saying that the armies that follow Jesus out of heaven on horses jump off their horses and fly in the air and answer the call of the angel to assemble for dinner? (I slap myself on the forehead and exclaim "good grief") The Lamb's wedding feast does NOT entail feasting on the flesh of horses or people. We are not cannibals. We are not zombies. We do not have a feast on the battlefield! The Lamb's wedding feast will take place on His Holy Mountain where He will prepare a feast of aged wine and choice meat..... a lavish banquet. Isa 25:6 The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, And refined, aged wine. There is a huge difference between the Marriage banquet of the Lamb...... And the Great Supper of God.

Revelation 12 gives us a pretty good overview of the tribulation conflict. Satan and his followers are kicked out of heaven and thrown to the earth: "Woe to the earth and sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.... 12:12 "And when the dragon saw that he was thrown to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.... (Israel) 12:13 "The dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Christ".... (both Jews, who keep the commandments, and Christians, who hold to the testimony of Christ).... 12:17 So we see that Satan's great wrath will be geared towards the nation of Israel first and then the Church, Christians. God lets Satan have his way against Jews and Christians. Satan is not concerned with other earth dwellers and other religions. He is after the cream of the crop, first and foremost. If he can annihilate the Jews and the Christians, then the earth will be his. But God always has a remnant. Why does God allow this? To weed out true believers from fake believers. That's why we see martyrs at the 5th seal, and many more to come. I agree that God's wrath is the trumpet and bowl judgments. God will not share His glory with another, especially Satan. That's why Isaiah writes "The Lord alone will be exalted in that day"... Isa 2:11 ....... The trumpet and bowl judgments are the "Day of the Lord" Satan has his day....the tribulation............... God has His day....The Day of the Lord" The seals are Satan's wrath. You have the beginning of "birth pangs" Then...... "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name".... Matt 24:9 AFTER tribulation is the Day of the Lord, the day of His Wrath....(not a literal 24 hr day) Huge difference between tribulation 'thlipsis' and wrath 'orge'.

I agree that the sword coming out of His mouth is symbolic. But Jesus on a white horse I believe is literal. Just as in Jesus's first advent, He entered Jerusalem riding on a donkey. The donkey has been historically linked with Redemption. Was it a real donkey? Of course it was. Rev 19 has Jesus, on a white horse, leading the armies of heaven to battle. I cannot see Him blowing the battle trumpet and leading a charge..... while running.

Right.... and the 7 bowls are not judgment??? 7 = divine completion.... 7 bowls??? 7 = divine completion.... 7 seals??? According to your theory.... only the 7 trumps are divine completion???

You da man.... Rev man!

Obvious to you, maybe If you don't want to believe that it's the second coming, well, that's ok. The Greek term is "Parousia" which is a coming or presence, but I don't really need to tell you this. Whether its actually a "second" coming (presence) or a third, forth or whatever, it will be His established presence..... forever. If the phrase " second coming" causes confusion to 'some' people, perhaps its because they're not all too familiar with scripture. I don't know....... I'm just guessing. I think the term "second coming of Jesus" is a rather universally recognized and accepted term/phrase. The rapture is secondary to the resurrection. The resurrection happens first, and then the rapture..... 1 Thes 4:15 I believe Matthew 24:29-31 is the same as Paul's teaching in 1 Thes 4:15-17....... We, as students of the bible, have to look at the whole council of God, all the relevant scriptures.... not just a few cherry picked ones. There are many more than Matt 24 and 1 Thes.... but I'm sure you know them. So, yes, I believe that Scripture teaches that the "parousia" is equated with the resurrection and then the rapture

what are you meaning by this?

If "horse" (ippos in Greek) equals power, as you have written, then the angel who calls out to the birds of the air to assemble for the great supper of God, that you may eat the flesh of "horses".... 'ippos'.... same word as Jesus' horse...so the birds are going to eat 'power' ??? The angel is quite clear in saying "eat the flesh of horses".... as well as the flesh of kings and commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of the riders on the horses (and the horses), and the flesh of all men both free men and slaves, and small and great.........Rev 19:17-19 The "birds" that the angel gathers is not symbolic of anything. It's a bird, a fowl, a carrion bird. It eats literal flesh.

Well..... I agree with part of this reply. "That Rev 19 is Jesus return to earth" That I agree with, as scripture declares.

I agree that they disagree. :) Many, if not most scholars and bible expositors, students etc think that Rev 19 is indeed the second coming. But scripture disagrees with them. That's the reason I posted this. If a person takes in the whole council of God and not just a few cherry-picked verses, then they will see that scripture does indeed declare that Jesus does come well before Rev 19. His appearance and coming in the clouds at the sixth seal is what then? It's His return, His second coming, in the clouds as the two men in Acts 1:11 testify....." This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." How did He go into heaven?..... In a cloud. How is He coming back ..... He's the cloud rider, throughout scripture. He's coming back in a cloud. In Rev 19..... heaven is opened up. The earth dwellers see Jesus on a horse and an army of angels following Him. No clouds. Thanks for your input.

Jesus comes back at the end of the sixth seal, which I believe from past conversations that, you equate this with the seventh trumpet.(Please correct me if I'm wrong) Knowing all the destruction and open demonic activity that's going on, on the earth and the peoples of the earth, during the seven trumpets, how can a person believe scripture that says the people will be oblivious to what's going on.... that they will be marrying and building and planting and eating and drinking...... all normal everyday activities..........amidst massive earthquakes, tsunami's, fire and brimstone, 100 pound hail stones, being tortured by demonic locusts for 5 months.... billions of people being killed...... etc etc......... etc. It makes no sense.