JCISGD

Sorry but it wont do no good on judgement day to tell God " such and such said so and so" I have no intention of watching your video, as Jesus says " Who do YOU say that I am" ?

Well said Sapphire.

Yet, you really can't provide a reason as to why our position is wrong. You can whine and blither about "it's not rational," but you have yet to provide anything that possesses any intellectual, meaningful or substnantive value that a thinking person could appreciate. You have not provided anything "obvious" other than the obvious fact that all you are capable of are emotional, baseless rants. There is nothing "disjointed" in what we have said. We have been perfectly clear and consistent in our presentation of why we believe as we do. All you do is whine that we don't see this as you see it. Brother Shilo, i am publically rebuking you as this is a public forum and you have posted so, but please take it in the spirit of love intended and not a personal attack. Brother your comments above re- whinning, blitherring and all you are capable of are emotional baseless rants, is not the response of a Christian to another let alone one whom Christ died for. I did enjoy you post on the grace of God but you are not exhibiting that here. Peace to you and God bless. In Christ, Arthur.

Hi B1997, yes its good for those purposes too. I am totally not into trying to decide who is spiritual based on seating, it just pricked my interest as ive mostly sat at the back or where i had an easy out and im not elderly or unwell. I was responding to the comment made by another that in all religions ( and possibly marches, protests, gatherings etc) those at the back are for the most part less interested or decided. This is not my personal stance, God Bless.

I was struck by a comment on a blog about a group of Christians who went to a 10K strong JW convention to evangelise, but mostly got booted out. Anyway one guy headed for the back row as he stated that in every religion the undecided and less dedicated sat there. This surprised me as i also had sat often in the back of church, esp if in a church i had little previous knowledge of. I also thought back to those i knew who always sat at the back, and saw that i did not know of their boldness in Christ. This is not a critism of those who sit at the back, but an obsevation and wake up call to myself to check my heart at the door maybe.

Just my opinion, but i think theres been a few leaps of assumptions here and there in this topic. 1. Since God created everything, then he also created evil. It is not impossible for new creations to exist after Gods intial creation. God created the elements but man created concrete and steel etc. 2. Children are born inherently sinful. This is not possible if we are moral beings, that is responsible for our actions and thought. If we are born sinful then we do not have free will and therefore not responsible nor deserving of punishment. 3. Evil is the absence of God. God is all present and all knowing, therefore there is nowhere that God is not. Satan being full of evil is shown to be aloud an adience with God in Job. 4. God placed temptation in Adam and Eves way. Genesis only gives us bare bones necessities for faith and explaination of our beginings. Doctrines should not be formed from these alone. That God knows about something does not mean He set it up or would not have stopped it IF it were wise to. 5. God is free to do anything. God is bound by His own holiness and wisdom. He cannot by nature do certain things or by wisdom avoid them. Nothing that is possible is impossible to God, but it is not possible that God can do evil, nor anything else that is impossible. Finally to get back to the original post, God does not need evil to show His glory but now that it has occured it has allowed the opportunity for grace to abound much more where sin has abounded. Also many facets of Gods glory now shine forth much greater than before evil began, such as Gods willingness to sacrifice Himself for us and take on the form of a servant to all.

Hi Tigger, I believe those in MAT 7:21 who said "LORD, LORD " consider themselves Christians but they are deluded and "workers of iniquity". They may do miracles etc, but they have no "holiness unto the LORD", therefore Jesus will say " depart from me i never knew you". Interestingly the word "knew" is also used in the context of marital intimacy, and in light of the book of Solomon it can be reasonably expected that we are to be wedded to Jesus in such intimacy that brings us into holiness. Please dont think i am suggesting anything sexual but that there is a joining of Spirit to spirit? There is a name for those who believe we are no longer obligated to obey moral law, it is to be an Antinomian. This not to say we can be saved by keeping the law, that is by faith in Christ alone, faith that enables us to keep His laws. But thats another topic which i hope to start soon. God Bless.

Im not saying its right but forgiveness and till death do us part would stop all remarriage, therefore divorce. Seperation may be necessary for safety or sanity. Sorry to all those for whom it is too late for this, thats a whole nother issue, and sorry to those who would find this unfair. I am a divorced person and have been single 18 yrs, its not that pleasant at times, but in time its not unbearable either.

Hi KC i think you misunderstand my intentions somewhat there my friend, I did not speak of holiness in relation to D/R but to point out that holiness was the only way to know if we are truly in the way, as some who cry legalism are only trying to cover up their sin. I think your comment above about fake holiness is unmerited as i did not qualify what this is, and i certainlt did not mean someone D/R was could not be. Sorry if any feel that was irrelevant or that i went off topic, i am genuinely undecided and troubled by this issue and am on the WF to get a wider veiw about things i can not resolve in my church. This is not about judging and perhaps it should be in controversial topic`s as it certainly is that. Im sorry if you feel judged, how do you think non Christians feel just because we say Jesus is the only way? Should we not preach the gospel if its true, likewise i am trying to arrive at the truth and wish to discuss it here. Peace to you.

Enough said. Touche Neb

Hi, far be for me to stumble you, so take or leave my words to you as just my opinion. Firstly i must say i am concerned that you are not commited to an accountable group of fellow believers, that is to say a church. Secondly i went through the same issue as a young Christian, and now think my giving of tithes to someone needy was not my call. Those in need have avenues which they can go to, if they are willing to be accountable and look at why they are in need. Thirdly I believe the tithe is to go into the storehouse, and offerings over and above are discretionary. Prov 3:9+10 and that God calls it robbery when our firstfruits do not go to Him. Mal 3: 8,9+10. I would not give my tithe to TV evangelist as they are not part of the storehouse proper, but i may send and offering if i believed God was leading me to. However they are not accountable to me or to those God has placed over and around me for my good, so i do not support such as these usually. For those who say tithing is O/T then i guess they ought to rip out that half, even the book of proverbs with all its Godly wisdom and advice. I think it can be argued the amount to tithe, but 10 % is the only universal figure i have heard of. Finally according to your faith, let it be.

Hi Blien, one of the fruits of the Spirit is self control (stability), so if something is causing instability it might be that your attempting to go where God is not leading you at times. If the plane is in a nose dive focus on getting it level again before worrying about where its going. Make sure you have a good support base from other stable yet zealous Christians if possible. If hanging with the lost is causing you to stumble or grow cold towards Christian life, then cut back until you know you are ready. Make sure you are prayed up in the Holy Spirit before going out to save others, we soon find out how weak we are without this. When i was a young Christian i did stumble sometimes by being back around my old friends. But one time i went to a party and remained sober yet enjoying my friends, while they got about getting wasted as we always used to. After they got wasted they decided to blow up things with dynamite, and i said i would not go with them, my best friend cursed me and called me not a friend after all. I left the party to drive home but could not shake off the feeling that Satan was winning, so i stopped and prayed untill i sensed peace. I then went back and they were gone, so i slept in my car out of sight. In the morning they were changed people, and after talking about the night before they realised that a fuse that would not light, had probably saved their lives as in their drunkeness they were way too close to avoid injury or possibly death. All Glory went to God, though none are yet saved. These days i am more concerned about walking before God in holiness, without which no one will see the LORD. Even Jesus` disciples needed 3 yrs training before they were ready for their solo flight. However according to your faith, let it be.

Every man believes his own way, but that does not make it right. Many will say "Lord Lord " ,but He will say depart from me you workers of iniquity (sinners). Interestingly many today are quick to cry legalism, yet it was "workers of inquity" who Jesus said depart from me. That is why although miracles etc are good, they are not our standard but holiness is.

thanks for the replies, im not here to say anyones wrong so im glad at the different veiws. I do wish to point out that the topic is not about who is forgiveable, nor if the man was not guilty. But is it possible to get allowance for divorce/remarriage given the last part the verses in the 3 gospels Mathew, Mark and Luke ? I know people believe Paul gave this in Corinthians, but how is it possible Paul would contradict Jesus given he was writing with Jesus` words in mind. From what i understand of bible interpetation, its context,in context, in context. The context of the verse given the surrounding chapters, in context with other verses on the related topic, in context of the whole bible main thrust. It would be helpful to this doctrinal discussion i think if people kept to a YES/NO i agree/disagree arguement rather than judge anyone as wrong or wrong. Is it not the truth we need to arrive at, rather than defend our position even if wrong ? God Bless.

Hi all, when i first joined WF i had only recently come accross the teaching that all divorce and remarriage was wrong, and it seemed to shed such light upon my experience as a non christian who married a woman previously. My marriage broke down due to unfaithfulness and i became a christian 6 mths after that. I then divorced her 3 1/2 yrs later because she was living with another man. After listening to the various arguements against this teaching on WF and elsewhere, i became unsure of my convictions and recanted to the position of undecided. But now i see this last part of Jesus` commands in Mathew, Mark and Luke and there SEEMS no way around this. Whoever marries her that is divorced, commits adultery. What say you.

I had a perfect day today, everything went well. This not to say it could not have been improved upon. While we are not to be subject to unreasonable expextations of others, we are commanded to love God and our neighbour according to our opportunity and ability. This is being "Perfect as our Father in heaven is Perfect". It is not unreasonable and we are able to do what we can.

Wow hot topic, some emotions flying there. Just to be clear, i was not advocating the death penalty as such with the use of Mosaic law of two or three witnesses, but was pointing out some flaws in todays systems that lead to wrongful convictions, and where in the cases of the death penalty it is so many years removed from public focus that loses its impact. Mostly though i cant see how we could have any resembalance of safe society without laws and penalties that correspond to the seriousness of the crime. Forgiveness is not optional, but a murder turned Christian MAYBE should be willing to die to deter others.

Thanks PF, i too know of the wonder of Gods salvation through Jesus Christ, and share your testimony of a broken life that led me to repentance at 28 yrs old. My question has been cleared up thanks, i thought you were like myself, an advocate of complete and instantaneous sanctification in this life. But thats another thread so i wll say no more. God bless

The one difference i see in carrying out a death sentence in todays world is that in OT it was only done on testimony of two or more eye witnesses. So then if the person was wronly put to death, the guilt would rest upon the false witnesses, whom God would deal with. And the innocent person OT would have been with the LORD. The death penalty must also be swift to be a detterent. So i the death penalty today is at the least misapplied.

Hi Annad, You trying to start a fight ? Ok i`ll go first and take the beating. I dont know where it is but in OT " If a theif breaks into a house and he gets killed in a struggle, its not to be called murder" So i suppose forgiveness pertains to feelings of revenge, but the death penalty pertains to justice being upheld.

Try reading Visions of Heaven and Hell, by John Bunnyan of Pilgrims Progress fame. Old language but a must read. Also the testimony of a NZ man who died from multiple Box Jellyfish stings, but was showen heaven and sent back. He tells of the trees grass and flowers pulsating with life, swaying and as if singing beutifully. He also stood in a river and the water also was alive and flowed through him and not around. Not sure of the name or title.

Hi EJ, sorry but your definition of perfection is imperfect. Perhaps we could discuss it more if you wish? heres an arguement God does exist. Rom 1:20 1.For since the CREATION of the world 2. His INVISIBLE attributes are CLEARLY seen 3. Being UNDERSTOOD by the things He MADE 4. EVEN His eternal power and GODHEAD 5. So that THEY are WITHOUT excuse.

When did homosexual marriage become a civil right? Please explain. Not the right to marry, but to have their rights covered by a civil union. I Meant they are going to live this lifestyle anyway, and unless you are proposing some measure to stop that, then like the homeless,the destitute and mentally disturbed etc i think they have the right to protect their assests etc in the case of their union, despite how unpalatable that is to me.

Let them (unbelievers) have civil unions and the Church have marriages. I think all people reguardless have civil rights. Would you be happy to have had less civil rights because you were not a Christian or belonged to a Church ?

Are you saying some one who is carnal ( ruled by the flesh ) is not a Chriatian ? or that you do not know of the expression ? I am troubled by Heb 10:26+27 "For if we sin willfully after we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins". "but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." And 10:32 goes on to speak of "after you were illuminated " Some (not I yet) claim a second experience after salvation, namely the baptism of the Holy Spirit and a new POWER in them to overcome sin, the world and the Devil, just as at Pentecost Peter( who had caved in to his fears at Jesus arrest) now stood up and fearlessly faced a potential lynch mob. So i also wonder if the verse above is saying that a Christian who has recieved this second experience? is more accountable than what i would call a carnal Christian is. Because if this verse applies to many, myself included then i can only conclude that we are headed for hell, no concessions.