AnOrangeCat

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. To add a bit to it though, something that I feel is a thing is a tendency to overcomplicate certain concepts. Being guided by the Holy Spirit is something that I think has often been a target of that in our current age. A lot of it really just boils down to living in obedience to God to the best of your ability, and the primary tool we have regarding that is the Bible.

There's some nuance to this. God knows our hearts. Philippians 1:6 indicates that we're works in progress. As others have pointed out here we still have a sin nature to deal with. Paul acknowledges this in Romans 7. Even a mature Christian is going to sin sometimes. That doesn't mean they aren't forgiven. An addict who indulges every 20 days isn't necessarily and better or worse than the one who does it every 19 days. Where are hearts are matters a lot. Jesus mentions the kind of thing you're talking about in the parable of the soils. Some people hear the message, they seem good for a while, but it didn't take root.

I know what I believe, but outside of saying I'm Christian I don't feel a need to classify it further. There are key differences between things like Christianity and Catholicism, but when you look at the different denominations that exist within Christianity it seems like there's not really much meaningful difference between them.

I'd say "forgive them, for they know not what they do" plays into it as well. There's a strong element of love to that, but humility could arguably fit in as well. Getting beaten and mocked by the very people He was trying to help is some serious insult to injury. Knowing His own importance and power in relation to theirs I think it took a certain level of humility to quietly take it.

Another important element to this is the Hadith, a body of writings outside of the Koran that was not written by Mohammad. They came after him, and in some cases considerably after him. You really can see the influences of different agendas seeping in over time if you go over it keeping that in mind.

This is true, but it requires a certain degree of ignoring their own source material. In Islamic eschatology there's a final battle spoken of between Muslims and Jews, where the Jews hide behind rocks and trees but the rocks and trees (aside from the gharqad tree) will speak to Muslims to warn them. It's hard to be peaceful without ignoring the blatantly violent and anti-Semitic elements present in the body of their scriptures. Other than that I think another big factor is how strongly Islam is politicized in a person's area and whether or not there are any external factors make things into an us vs them situation. I find that there's usually some basis for the us vs them, but unless it's corrected that just makes for a self-propagating situation that's bound to escalate.

Yeah, that's something I feel is an issue as well. I definitely believe in charity, especially when it comes to people in extremely difficult situations like this, but being that far away makes it difficult to look into and make sure a given recipient for funds is legitimate. I've had personal experience with people preying on that for scams, and it's all too common for large chunks to be gobbled up by corruption.

I agree with you. These people are raised in an environment of propaganda and hostility. That's an unfortunate situation in and of itself. I personally don't believe every single Palestinian buys into it or wants conflict, even then. It's a situation that operates on multiple levels. Purely on an ethical level yeah, it's awful that innocent people die, but you also have to look beyond the headlines, which don't often tell you the measures Israel takes to offset civilian casualties. It's probably not ideal but we can't expect perfect from humans, especially not humans operating under a long term high pressure situation. As a Christian I don't feel bound to agree with every single decision their government makes or support them, but I do think they're doing about as well as can be expected under the circumstances. On another level there's the ugly reality that this is a war situation. The "rules" we have in place about war are a flimsy construct at best that are only ever enforced if one of the sides gets defeated. I feel sorry for any innocents, but I mostly expect this kind of thing in this situation. What I take home from it is that we can't rely on human justice, but in the end God will judge us all fairly.

I feel like this sort of thing warrants a check list. 1.) Is it respectful? 2.) Does it clearly convey the intended meaning? 3.) Does the group it's targeted at actually talk this way? 4.) Is their language or dialect sufficiently different from the dominant language of the area? Based on what little I've seen since reading up a little I feel like the answers to all of these are "No" or "Debatable" at best. Another issue I have is that while technical jargon, slang, and generational slang exist and can be fine, they're usually combined with normal, plain language so you can get some clues as to the context of unfamiliar terminology. The Gen Z Bible seems to go out of its way to cram as much of its terminology into each sentence as possible. From what I gather the writer claims good intentions and respect. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with regards to their intention, but I'm not so sure that the finished product comes across that way.

I think we see a reference to this in Luke 12:42-48. "And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more." We see in those verses that God has an understanding of fairness and practices it in His judgments. Those who had once known the truth and then rejected it knew the Master's will and then walked away despite having experienced His grace. Hebrews 10:26-29 also touches on the matter. "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?" If you think about it, turning away is pretty disrespectful. Imagine caring about someone enough to give them something deeply precious only for them to treat it poorly, discard it, and basically step on it, which is what Hebrews compares it to. Understandably our Father doesn't look kindly upon this. It combines having been given much with disrespect. We see a forerunner to this in the days of Moses. The Israelites of the day saw the plagues, they experienced manna, they passed through the Red Sea, they were delivered from slavery. Despite having been given much they still made an idol and worshiped it. Didn't end well for them, either.

I see some of this too, mostly with the so-called "progressive" Christians. A lot of emphasis on love and not judging but it mostly registers as people using it as an excuse to wallow in particular sins.

A bit hard to see where he's coming from. Jesus pointed out that in upholding just two commandments we're operating in the spirit of the law. In Acts we see an acknowledgement that the Gentiles aren't under Jewish law, and they point at a pretty simple and short list of restrictions. I also feel like reducing Christianity to a set of rules is missing the point. Yes, there are some rules, but WHY we follow them (or should follow them) is deeply important as well. Without that there's some very important context missing.

I agree with this. As someone who's been abused by family well into adulthood this is something I've had to think about a lot, as well as just what exactly forgiveness entails. Praying for and doing good to those who offend us is a part of it and very much in the spirit of forgiveness. Absolutely. I've been there, and the distance is vital. I've come to see forgiveness in a very similar if not identical way as I see doubt/faith and love. As long as we're living our earthly lives it's very natural for us to harbor some measure of doubt. We've never physically interacted with God, and we often have circumstances that press in on us and pressure us to take wrong actions. To my way of thinking it's precisely because of these completely natural doubts that we can act in faith to begin with. If we had the benefit of having met God in the flesh we'd be acting on knowledge, not faith. Because we act on it, it becomes a matter of faith with works. Similarly with forgiveness we have feelings telling us one thing and the Bible telling us the opposite. We can deny our feelings and do what God wants us to do, even if it's just forcing ourselves to pray for the person in question. I do firmly believe we don't need to expose ourselves to further hurt, though. I'd probably go visit my earthly father on his deathbed. But I don't think forgiveness would entail inviting him into my already cramped home for an extended stay where he'd be confrontational and aggressive and indulge in his lifestyle of drugs and alcohol. I went through similar with my mother since she lived with me in her final years, but she always seemed conscious of the fact that she messed up the parenting process. She made some effort to quit, too, but the flesh is weak. As a final bit of consideration to offer on the topic, remember the guy in the church in I Corinthians 5 that was involved in incest? That's a really interesting case because on one hand Paul told the church to shun him, going so far as to forbid them from even eating with him. Yet Paul also says of him to hand him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved. Bit of food for thought on forgiveness there.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm 100% behind recognizing things like how our own works and "righteousness" are powerless to save us and that the flesh is wicked and an enemy. Straight from the mouth of Jesus we're worth more than sparrows, and Psalm 139:14 tells us that we're fearfully and wonderfully made. That's a verse that speaks to me a lot, and I'm thankful for it. We're also supposed to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. We're clearly precious in God's sight. I'd argue that instead of self loathing/meanification (that term amuses me too much) we're called to be humble.

Cool to see this here because I just finished reading that chapter literally a few minutes ago as my morning Bible reading. I agree with you anyway. The division helps us, and this is especially true when we're looking inwards to evaluate ourselves.

Yeah, the firstborn, especially firstborn male, seems to get some recognition around the world. IIRC in Japan they were the main inheritors but that also came with the responsibility to be primary caregiver for their parents in old age. But like yourself I haven't come across any scriptural obligation in the Bible for Gentiles to observe the firstborn tradition.

I get this though in my case it's mostly my general eccentricity and introverted nature. The original post resonates a lot, though. Being in a leadership position really does expose you to a lot of potential fallout with people, even when you're leading other Christians.

I take a somewhat similar position, albeit for a different reason. The way I see it, living in the western world means most people you'll encounter already have some basic familiarity with the message of salvation. Repeating it to someone whose heart is already hardened is going to annoy in most cases and won't tell them something they haven't already heard. But over the course of knowing someone there are times when it becomes relevant and thus less intrusive, and they get (hopefully) a net positive Christian influence in their life. That's the sort of situation where I feel most efficient. Naturally it can be different for others, and that's okay. It's one of those things where Paul's body of Christ analogy is very applicable.

The Bible has its own ways of saying this: You'll know them by their fruits, and faith without works is dead.

I agree with this. I went through a phase where I was feeling suicidal and would think of anything I saw as a suicide tool, and where a cancer scare I had seemed like news that wasn't so bad. Thank God that didn't last very long and life improved soon after. I don't really see the courage or cowardice in it, either. But I do see motivation fitting in. I'm not confident enough to say what it means for a person's eternal state, but I do feel like it touches on faith. It makes a very loud statement about how someone feels about God having a purpose for it all and that one day He'll make it better.

Something that I feel fits into this is being content with where we are in Christ. An addict going "I'm down from daily to once every two weeks! Great!" and stopping there is an example of that. So is someone who feels like their understanding of the Bible is enough and then they just stop there, or someone who feels like the level of time and energy they devote to God is enough. I imagine I'm about as guilty of falling into this mentality as anyone else, but I've come to realize that it's a real growth killer. Ideally we don't stop growing in our walk with God. Continued growth is a sign of life.

I'm so glad the forum is back. This has been one of my go to places for online Christian fellowship, and I consistently find some posters here really interesting. I was worried something dire happened.

I agree with Neighbor. It seems within the realm of possible.

I agree 100%. My family has a lot of people who went heavily into drugs, alcohol, and sex. They're very much living examples of the wages of sin being death, and a whole lot of misery to boot. Not everyone ends up like they have, but I'd wager a lot more people who live in sin end up like them than those who end up wildly successful despite their lifestyle. Maybe I'm easily satisfied but I see a lot of value in little things. Dew in the grass sparkling in the light is pretty in my opinion. When I see it I typically express some thanks to God. Normally no other person walks through the area around my house so I tend to feel like it's an art arrangement just for me. There's a lot of things great and small we can enjoy that aren't against Christian principles. We might have to spend some time looking for them but they're there. This is not to diminish that life can be hard and that the world will hate us when we make a stand for Christ. But we were warned that the world would hate us because it hated Him first.

I agree with Debp, keep at it and it will stick eventually. It's just a question of how long it takes to stick.