brakelite

The first paragraph...yes,that certainly hasn't helped. But there are doctrines within Christianity such as the trinity, natural immortality of the soul, eternal torment, that many Jews have great difficulty with, as they can only be substantiated by circumstantial NT texts, some of which were never in the original canon of scripture, and most certainly cannot find any support in the OT. As for your second paragraph, I do have an issue with those, not necessarily you personally, who instantly presume any reticence to actively support the nation of Israel equates to support fro terrorism, and/or Islam. Nor do I have any sympathy with the idea that support, or a lack thereof,is a salvational issue. I have very good reasons for the way I think. They are not affected by the media, nor by any influence from a political perspective. My reasons for expressing a certain reserve toward the goings on in the Middle East and around Israel are eschatological. I come from a completely different perspective from you as far as prophecy is concerned, and like to keep the nation of Israel and the politics of that sphere at a respectable distance,not allowing them to distract nor deviate attention away from where I am Biblically convinced is the true focal point of prophecy. But again, that is another conversation which I know you would disagree with. But no hard feelings...I am not bigoted against Jews nor against their hopes of a national identity...I am fully aware that even within Judaism there is opposition to a nation state. Taking sides on that issue quite frankly is way beyond my pay grade. Back to the Mennonites however. Perhaps you know more about this than is revealed in the article above. From my reading of it however, I see no support for terrorism nor Islam in their move to withdraw funds from private companies in Israel; if my church chose to invest funds derived from tithe in private companies I would object vociferously...if it were from freewill offerings I would be suspect...as far as I am concerned in these last hours of human history as we know it, the urgency is for the gospel to be preached. Not making money for it to sit in the bank and collect interest. All money should go direct to getting the message of the gospel to all the world. Nothing else matters.

I think the trinity is the biggest roadblock to Jewish salvation, but that's another conversation. The problem I find with the pro-Israel stance with many is the underlying suggestion that it ought to be compulsory within Christendom, even a salvational issue as expressed in one of your earlier posts. It isn't.

" an interesting time to be alive"... Understated to perfection.

Please quote any suggestion I have made whereby you could glean any inference to any hatred I have for Jewish people, or anti-semitic leanings? I dont support the US Democrat party...that does not make me a hater of the American people. Nor do I support or agree with American foreign policy toward some Middle Eastern states, that doesn't make me a hater of the American people either.

Women in Bible propecy are symbols of the church. A pure faithful woman, (Isa 54:4-6; Jer 6:2; Isa 51:16; Hosea 2:19,20; )God's people, a harlot, an apostate church. (Ezek. 16; Jer 3:20; James 4:4; ) The reference in Revelation 12 does not refer to Mary, as giving birth, but to Israel, to the church, God's true people who waited in expectation of their Messiah, such as Simeon and Anna, as opposed to the majority of the priests and religious leaders of the day who didn't have a clue. It's the same today. Only those waiting in expectation, "looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior Jesus Christ", Titus 2:13, are a part of that same group of people.

Revelation 12 speaks of just 2 churches...one true, the pure woman, one false, the harlot. The harlot, Babylon the Great, as it appears at the time of the end, incorporates all fallen or apostate churches, as well as all false religions, and all the nations who surrender to the final deception brought about by the " image of the beast" enforcing submission to that beast, the Roman papal aposate. Also under her spell will be those who belive themselves Christian but do NOT keep Gods commandments nor have a true faith in Christ. This includes the nation of Israel. The true pure woman represents all Gods faithful people, both Jew and Gentile. They are all those living up to the light they have received, are living wholly by faith in the Son of righteousness and are clothed in the correct wedding garment...the character of Christ. They come from among ALL peoples nations and tongues AND denominations. Thus the pure woman is both the true people of Israel and those gentile Christians now grafted into the true olive tree. One faith one baptism one spirit one Lord.

We all were born with fallen natures...with a propensity to sin and selfishness, thus why we must be born again. No-one born of man is exempt. Jesus, although born with the nature of fallen man, (God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh Rom 8:3) overcame sin by His intimate unfailing connection to His Father. His humanity only veiled His divine nature by which He was inseparably linked with the invisible God, which was more than able to resist temptation, and the weaknesses of heredity. There was in His whole life a struggle, and the spiritual battle He fought on our behalf was as real as ours,but far more intense for the enemy of righteousness moved upon His natural human nature with all His cunning and power, but to no avail. It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take upon Himself man's unfallen nature, like that of Adam in his innocence in Eden, but Jesus came into the human race after 4000 years of sin and rebellion. Gal. 4:4,5. 2 Cor. 5:21. Hebrews 5:1-9 Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.....showing us the way and leaving us an example that we also, by partaking of the divine nature can overcome. 2 Peter 1:4 We are all born with sinful fallen natures, but that does not mean we are 'hardwired' to sin. What it does mean is that we have a propensity, an inclination toward sin, and our fleshly carnal natures are so weak, that on our own, we more often than not, give in and sin. However, God has made it possible that through His only begotten Son, and by our connection to Him through the new birth, we have available to us through faith divine power by which we can overcome sin in the flesh, just as Jesus did, "that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh,but after the Spirit". (Rom. 8:4) Mark 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come. Christ is waiting in longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ is reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. Phil. 1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

I would be cautious in believing the above...sounds suspiciously like pantheism. As to the phrase, "death without God is separation from God" seems to me a contradiction. If one is separated from God...separated from the only source of life, death can be the only result. That is true death. Not eternal life at another address. And yes, that death lasts forever...it is the wages of sin...it is an eternal punishment.

It just occurred to me. A question. If I should with-hold my tithe on the basis of some policy in my church that I conscientiously objected to, would that displease God? Yes! Because it reveals a lack of faith in God...my tithe isn't given to the church, I am returning it to God...it belongs to Him. What the church does with it is His business. Any other offerings however is at my discretion, and I can give or hold back according to what wisdom or discernment I choose to use with regards the nature of the recipient, and the poilicies it purports to follow. God is NOT going to judge me on such matters. God however will judge the Mennonite Church on how it chooses to use tithe money which is returned to God and ought to be used for the benefit of His spiritual kingdom...that is the furtherance of the gospel. Taking investment money away from businesses helping a secular nation extend its earthly/carnal territories I would boldly suggest is a godly action.

With all the above said, that doesn't mean that I discount God having a special purpose and hope for the nation...but not as they are. Their salvation rests precisely upon the same conditions as do ours...acceptance of the gospel...and that always comes down to an individual decision. The nation of Israel is not going to be saved as a nation on any other basis than grace and mercy through faith in the blood of the Lamb.

Mmmmm, you do all realize do you not that I am speaking of a secular government that refuses to recognize its own Messiah, and religious traditionalists bigoted against all who believe in Jesus as Messiah , especially their own? Why should I give any support for such a people, other than my desire, prayers, and means to see them converted? You do realize that Paul , while correctly claiming "all Israel will be saved" also said when a Gentile is converted he becomes a child of Abraham, a child of promise, and a grafted part of Israel, and that carnal/fleshly children of Israel are not necessarily of Israel? On that basis therefore claiming I need to support a secular government and a false religion in order to be saved is a false works based gospel. And Fresno Joe, while I concede that Jesus gave His life, those who condemned Him were still counted as His murderers, and if Jesus was to walk the streets of Jerusalem today doing the same works and speaking the same message, I believe He would receive the same response He did 2000 years ago. He would receive the same response as would Benny Hinn and treated as a charlatan or magician, because they, like many Christians, base their hopes on a material earthly kingdom. Israel still the apple of God's eye? No my friends, the church is the apple of God's eye. It is the church,not the nation of Israel, that is the focus of God's purposes and and the recipient of God's power and grace, except they repent. Don't be deceived by the current fiasco in the Middle East, as if Israel is the focus of the devil's attacks. I would suggest that Israel, as it stands, pleases Satan very much, and he would be quite happy for it to continue the way its going. It is the church, the worldwide ecclesia , made up of people from all denominations, including Jewish Christians and Messianics, who are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit of God, that is the focus of the devils hatred and the focus of God's loving nurture and protection. That is the Israel I support.

I guess then that makes me an enemy of God. Although I am surprised that the God I have known and been intimate friends with for over 40 years would a. take so long to tell me, and b. use you to do the telling.

So not supporting the secular Israel nation politically, and its false religious hypocrites spiritually, whose forbears killed our Savior and are now vainly attempting to rebuild what their own Messiah declared as desolate, is setting up oneself to be an enemy of God? That is a very presumptuous and bold statement.

The Bible tells us that God is love. His nature is love. Which means that contrary to the accusations that God is responsible for the starvation of children, the disasters that wipe out lives and homes, the violence that permeates society, the Bible informs us that because God IS love, everything He does, or think, is rooted in love. If the God you believe in, even the God you don't believe in, is not a personification of love, then you are believing in a false God. That being the case, the real God can be trusted. Do not doubt His motives in calling you to be converted. Don't leave Him at the door knocking. If you turn Him away, you are breaking His heart. It pains Him that His love is rejected, more so than it pains you when your love is spurned. It hurts doesn't it if you are seeking to start a relationship with someone, or make an existing relationship better, when people, despite your absolute best intentions, rebuke, abuse, ignore, or reject you. And your pain is directly proportional to the effort you invest into establishing it. Our heavenly Father invested His only Son...submitting Jesus to a life of service, and a cruel humiliating death all to give you the opportunity, the choice, to accept Him. Like any good father, husband, God wants only that which is best for you, only that which is for your good. He will never abuse you, hurt you, let you down, disappoint you, dishonor you, belittle you, or be unfaithful to you. Whatever your needs are, He will meet them. Whatever endangers you, He will remove. He will never take away that which is good for you, nor give you anything which will hurt. He already knows all there is to know about you. All you've done, wherever you've been, and loves you anyway. In Him there is no condemnation, no shame, no embarrassment. Whatever debt you may feel you owe Him for whatever transgressions you may have committed, that debt is paid for. In full. There is no interest to be paid...no further deposits to be made...no more installments necessary to make up the price of your redemption. The Son of God has already paid the full price of your salvation in the name of His Father, therefore you are His. Wholly His, lock, stock, and barrel. Let Him now take charge of that which He has purchased with His own blood. Allow Him to take possession of that for which He paid the ultimate price, and begin a new life; an abundant life; a life free from condemnation, free from sin, addiction, worry, and fear. Let today be the first day of eternity.

I heard an unconfirmed report that a while ago a Hillsong concert had a surprise visitor...Jesus.

Seems to me that they are simply reflecting their historical roots...religious liberty.

Next minute.....

In order to sustain the concept of eternal torment, all must also prove the concept that sinners live forever, completely denying Romans 6:23 which clearly declares that the wages of sin is death. Yet proponents for the eternal torment idea then resort to variations of the following..."ye shall not surely die"...now where have I heard that before? The scriptures however teach... a. That only God is immortal....1 Timothy 6:15,16 b. That immortality is a gift only for the redeemed....Timothy 1:9,10 But so many don't believe the above, but claim immortality for everyone, even sinners? In doing this they even deny the very purpose of God when guarding the way to the tree of life in Genesis 3: 22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. I am not sure which came first. The belief in the natural immortality of the soul, or eternal torment, because they both must be sustained in order to accept either. Yet neither are Biblical!! How do you explain this?

My post did not suggest that unbelievers are saved. The Bible says the just shall live by faith. Faith in God's word. Not faith in man's opinions. I posited 3 concepts, and you ignored 2 of them. The wages of sin is death. That Jesus suffered that death reveals 2 things...those who do not accept the propitiation, die. Forever. No hope.No resurrection. How? They are destroyed in the fire, "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." We are further informed that prior to this, "they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." This was on the surface of the earth, at the end of the 1000 years. The devil and his angels are thrown into that very same fire, and destroyed "in the presence of the Lamb and the angels". This explains how it is possible to "tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." Question. Please reconcile the love of God for His children with the current popular idea that we can be happy and content throughout eternity knowing that God is deliberately keeping your children/brothers/sisters/parents alive that they may continue to suffer in fire without dying?

As we look to the future, prophecy informs us that we are nearing a time of great crisis of such magnitude that not since Noah has there been a time of such import and significance. And in fact in Revelation 14:9-11 is the most dire warning in all scripture, and that time is immediately before us. So I ask. Is this warning given in love? Yes. If such a dire warning is given, do you think God would also offer a sure identification of the Antichrist that we may not be deceived? Again, the answer is yes. And would not that same love also reveal not just who the beast is, but how we may avoid its mark? Remember, "He that spared not His own Son, but offered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" Let us get real here. Why is it that many in the church then move away from that revelation regarding the Antichrist, and attach to him their own theories and opinions when no such things are necessary? God has not enshrouded His warnings in a mystery that cannot be understood. The church has become full of prognosticators and clairvoyants, finding simple Biblical exegesis insufficient so people devise imaginative future enemies about to persecute the church, attack Israel, decimate all that they believe is good and sound, all the while ignoring and setting aside God's word that warns them that the enemy is not without the church, but within. In attempting to tell everyone that the enemy is still future and is coming from the horizon afar off, they do the devil's own work and deceive people into ignoring the real enemy who is standing beside them whose doctrines and dogmas they have all been partaking of. In this they are ignoring the very word of God that says "Come out of her my people". God says come out, they say he hasn't arrived yet. And not only so, but because they believe the coming enemy is an individual, how can they come out anyway from an individual? God's warning makes no sense to such a one. They fail to perceive that the Antichrist is not an individual, but a succession of individuals who preside over the one system. It is that system that is so very well described in scripture, and it is that system that God calls His people to leave. It is the system that God warns of, it is the system that is the enemy, and it is that system that so many are even now fully card-carrying-life members of but are totally unaware and oblivious of the danger! In Revelation 13, that wonderful chapter that focuses so intently on the 'Beast' and its character and work, mentions 'worship' five times, and in the following chapter, 3 times. Satan lusts for and craves worship. Isaiah quotes Lucifer in Isaiah 14:13,14. "I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High."!! Satan, aka Lucifer, has an "I" problem. If Satan however strolled into the local church, of whatever denomination, introduced himself and said "worship me", is the congregation going to do that? Hardly. Does Satan know such a tactic would fail? Of course. So in order for him to receive the worship he so desperately craves, he has to make people believe they are worshiping the true God, when in actuality they are worshiping the false. Thus Satan has to use deception. He must introduce a system of worship that is so close to the original that it is almost impossible to tell them apart. He must introduce a counterfeit. He cannot do this by force, as people will be on to it immediately. In order to destroy the church, Satan tried with persecution through pagan Rome, but failing to lessen the growth of the church, he had to use more subtle methods. Introducing false doctrine he slowly but surely began to chip away at the foundations of truth until the people were believing a lie. Then they would be ready for the last great deception, and be led into false worship. God, Who sees the end from the beginning, warns us of this great counterfeit. God has shown us who is Antichrist. Paul wrote in 2 Thess. 2:3,4. "Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day (the second advent) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped: so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Here we see Antichrist promoting himself to a place of worship. What is the temple of God in the Christian era? It is the church. (1 Cor.3:16,17; 6:19; 2 Cor.6:16; Eph. 2:19-22). Therefore Antichrist is placing himself in a position of authority and as an object of worship within the church. He is not on the outside attacking the church, he is on the inside deceiving it. Paul repeats his former warning in Acts 20:29,30. "I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Paul also says in 2Thess. 2:7 "the mystery of iniquity doth already work." Thus the great apostasy he warned of had already begun in the days of the apostles, and this apostasy was to result in slowly and cunningly eroding away many important Bible truths from men's minds that would last for centuries. The Antichrist who was to bring on the crisis of the mark of the beast at the end of time began forming and growing into power in those early days. John confirmed this saying in John 4:3 "that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now is it in the world." So Satan was raising up his counterfeit a long time ago,for it was through this counterfeit system of worship that Satan himself would be worshiped. Notice in... Revelation 13:1 1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." Who is this dragon? Revelation 12:9 tells us " And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Thus it is Satan who gives the beast its power, its seat (or throne) and authority. Bu this is not all. In reading Revelation 13:1,2 we are taken back to the 4th beast of Daniel, pagan Rome. The parallels between pagan Rome and the dragon, both in symbol and practice, is not a coincidence. And documented history reveals that it was pagan Rome, more specifically Emperor Justinian, that gave official approval to the popes in the 6th century to assume civil power in Rome. It was from this time that the Roman church began its venture as a church/state union, the typical and common characteristic of all pagan religions. And continuing in Revelation 13:3 "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered (or marvel in admiration) after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" So there it is. By worshiping Antichrist, they by proxy are worshiping Satan. Antichrist is Satan's frontman, his alter-ego, his counterfeit. Through the worship of Antichrist Satan fulfils his lifelong dream to receive the worship of man. But there is more. He enlists help, and we read about this a little later in the same chapter... 11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Notice that it is the people, (the 'they in verse 14) who under recommendation from the state power, create this image, another church/state union, and it is the second beast, or nation, that gives the church/state union its power. And notice that this nation with the horns like a lamb speaks as a dragon...speaks like the devil...like the pagan emperor who granted the Roman church power in the 6th century, so also does this second nation give power and authority to this newly developed church/state union. The Majority will Worship their Enemy. Deception,worship,deception,worship. These are the issues of the last days. Remember, this is God's loving 'revelation' concerning true and false worship. It is the love of God which prompted Jesus to warn constantly of the core theme of the times leading up to His second advent. Matt. 24:4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many....11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many....23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Deception is surely a major factor contributing to the confusion and apostasy of Babylon. Are not the abominations in the cup which she holds her deceptions and false doctrines? But of what purpose are these deceptions if they do not relate directly to how we relate to our Creator? Are they not designed to draw us away from a right relationship with God? Yes, assuredly. But more than that, and I cannot stress this enough, Satan seeks to draw us away from the Creator toward himself. Through deception, he has the whole world worshiping the Antichrist, and the whole world believes they are worshiping God. The counterfeit system of worship is so beguiling, so attractive, and presents itself in such a loving, caring, compassionate, Christian way, that the entire world is deceived into accepting her, obeying her dogmas, following her counsel, keeping her man-made commandments. The Truth Liberates. So back to our original question. Does God want us to be so deluded that we would submit ourselves to a system of worship directed through Antichrist to Satan? Of course not. That is why Jesus warned us repeatedly of false prophets, false Christs. That is why the inspired scriptures go into such great and minute detail in the books of Daniel and Revelation concerning Antichrist and his work. And it is from these details that we can gather sufficient information to come to an honest and correct conclusion as to the exact identity of the Antichrist. To the precise identity of this false worship system that even now has much of the world in its grasp. The apostle Paul said that if we have a love for truth, we would not be deceived (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12) , and Paul is referring directly to the Antichrist when he penned these words. Jesus said in John 17:17 that we are sanctified by the word of truth, and in John 8:32 that if we continue in His word the truth of His word will set us free. Free from sin, free from error, free from false doctrine, free from deception. According to most modern evangelists, Antichrist is yet to come. The scriptures however are very clear. Antichrist is here now, and hard at work drawing the world after him as you read these words. And true to form, and in fulfillment of prophecy, much of the Christian world is either in denial, deluded, or at best confused, as to the true nature of the beast which is before them. They see it, they even wonder after it marveling at her power and splendor, many praise it, countless millions obey her commands in direct contradistinction to the commandments of God, but very few perceive the true nature of it. God's exceedingly great and infinite love for you demands you understand this truth. In His word He has provided all the information needed to ensure that no-one need be deceived or lack understanding in matters relating to such an essential matter as worship. Worship is what is due our Creator. It is who we worship that defines our loyalties. And it is how we worship that defines who we worship. Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, "the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father is Spirit and in Truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth." John 4:22-24. The last great delusion is set to present itself to the world, and even now is busily doing so. Antichrist is to perform his marvelous works in the sight of man. So closely will this system resemble the true, that it will be almost impossible to discern between truth and error except for the scriptures. No-one who hasn't trained themselves to search for and grasp the truths of the Bible will remain faithful to the true God when the coming crisis deepens. When demands come that they obey certain commandments, because they have failed to study and accept scripture, they will not discern that these commandments of men demand submission to counterfeit truth, and usurp the commandments of God. The fearful judgements that are proclaimed against those who worship the beast, the image, and receive the mark, as revealed in Revelation 14, should drive all men to an earnest study of the scriptures and the prophecies to learn what the mark is, who the beast is, and how they are to avoid them. The Bible, and the Bible only, must be the standard for all doctrine and belief. As a wise woman once said...The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science,the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority ...not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain 'thus saith the Lord' in its support....with the many warnings against false teachers, why are the people so ready to commit the keeping of their souls to the clergy? There are today thousands of professors of religion who can give no other reason for the points of faith which they hold than that they were so instructed by their religious leaders...a lack of moral courage to step aside from the beaten track of the world, leads many to follow in the steps of learned men, and by their reluctance to investigate for themselves, they are becoming hopelessly fastened in the chains of error...the truth and the glory of God are inseparable; it is impossible for us, with the Bible within our reach, to honor God by erroneous opinions. It is the first and highest duty of every rational being to learn from the scriptures what is truth, and then to walk in the light, and encourage others to follow His example. Ignorance of God's word is sin, when every provision has been made that we may become wise. We should day by day study the Bible diligently, weighing every thought, and comparing scripture with scripture. With divine help, we are to form our opinions for ourselves, as we are to answer for ourselves before God. Compare Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. Take note of all the parallels. There is no other power other than the RCC which meets all the criteria of being the Antichrist of scripture. Nor is there any other nation than the US who being democratic, has the power and worldly influence and authority to convince her people, and then the world, to create a Protestant church/state union as a direct image of the papacy, demanding obedience to papal dogmas, papal creeds, and specifically with regard to the laws or commandments of God, Torah, submission to the papal counterfeit of Sabbath, Sunday. Sunday, the RCC officially claims, is the "mark of her authority" in religious matters. Remember, in Revelation 14 there are only two groups of people in the last days. The sheep and the goats are divided on the basis of obedience to God's laws. Those who accept the mark of the beast, are set in direct contrast to "those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus." Revel. 14:12. Study current events. Line them up with prophecy. And pray. Pray earnestly and diligently for confirmation and help from the Holy Spirit. God promises that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth. God wants you to know the truth. No more trusting in fictional novels and so-called 'Christian' movies. No more trusting in the clergy and the television evangelists who assume so much and present so little.

Anti-Trump? Slander? Scurrilous agenda? Seriously? That sounds more like the language of a CNN forum attacking Trump supporters. Allow me to fill you in a little secret, a day after the 4th July. Happy Independence day by the way. The government of the USA, unique among the nations of the world, was established for one principle purpose...to protect freedom. All my posts were doing was warning of a scenario where there may be the possibility where those freedoms could well vanish. And Bible prophecy declares clearly that there is a future just like that. Whether it will be Trump, or someone else, it doesn't matter...the point being that in the current scenario where so many religious people are fronting up as political advisors to the President in a climate of increasing Catholic influence in world affairs and a decreasing awareness within Protestantism of the dangers therein, the impact on religious liberty in the US could be disastrous. If you are blind to such dangers; if you cannot envisage such a thing taking place in the US; if you are so confident that your attitude is so offendedat such a suggestion, I would suggest that the danger is even more alarming in direct proportion to your denials.

The greatest argument against eternal torment is the cross. If you believe the Son of God paid the full price for our redemption...if you believe that the wages of sin is death....and if you believe the Son of God truly died....then to believe in eternal torment is in complete contradiction to, and a denial of, all 3 of those concepts.

Okay, these points are made often in Sabbath threads throughout the the world, and debates go on infinitum without any real resolution. To continue here would likely not be beneficial, apart from possibly being way off topic. The point I was making in my post re the Council of Trent was the difference in attitude towards God's word by Catholics and Protestants, something exemplified by the archbishop's presentation, a presentation that at the time, could not be adequately answered by anyone at the council, including Luther. Only a Sabbath keeper could, with any moral certitude, defend the Protestant tenet of sola scriptura. Why? Because the archbishop is correct when he declares that Sunday observance was a change brought about by the church, and not a doctrine explicitly taught in NT scripture, as even your own scriptural quotes reveal. My own take on the Sabbath is that I see it as a gift...as you quoted, "made for man"....and one which I celebrate and delight in as it gives me an opportunity to turn aside from the things of this world for 24 hours, enjoy God's creation in fellowship with family, my brothers and sisters in Christ, and in nature outside. It is like a birthday, that comes along every week....a celebration of creation, the original creation 6 or so thousand years ago, and the recreation going on inside us now as born again believers. As far as Sunday is concerned, Archbishop de Fosso said that as an institution of the church, we ought to obey the church if we are to claim to be members of God's family. Jesus taught different. Jesus taught that to keep the commandments of men above the commandments of God was courting trouble. I am very confident, and have no fear, of God's judgement in this matter.

Apart from the 4 principles quoted and the archbishops speech which should be readily available on any catholic web site dealing with Trent (such as Vatican archives) the rest is my own commentary.

One prominent aspect, maybe even crucial, to the whole controversy between Catholicism and what was then quickly developing and by the time of the council of Trent, had formed a firm foundation, and which afterward formed the basis for Protestantism, was the issue of what became known as 'sola scriptura'. The council itself to a great extent was called on the premise that the church, that is the ecclesiastical hierarchy head-quartered in Rome and centered in its authority invested in the 'curia', had the final say as to what scripture meant, and was intended to be understood as doctrine. Protestantism on the other hand came to understand scripture as being readily understood by anyone who was willingly submissive to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. This of course was anathema to the Vatican, because it shut out a great deal of tradition which heretofore had been extensively used to guide the church in her teaching of not only scripture, but on dogmas which found no great relevance in scripture whatsoever, and which Protestants came to teach in many cases contradicted contradicted scripture. The debate on this subject was a protracted one, and at one stage it appeared that the non-traditionalists, who of course were represented by Luther at Trent, were winning the debate. This difference in understanding was reflected in the very first four decrees decided upon within the first few weeks of the council. (1) The Vulgate was the true Bible and not the Received Text which the Reformers followed and which had been the Bible of the Greek Church, the Church of the east, and the true churches of the West through the centuries; (2) tradition was of equal authority with the Sacred Scriptures; (3) the five disputed books found in the Catholic Bible, but rejected by Protestant scholars, were declared canonical; (4) the priests only, and not the laity, were capable of rightly interpreting the Scriptures. The above precepts were vigorously and successfully defended by the archbishop of Reggio, Gaspare de Fosso. Below is an excerpt from his speech, reflecting a concept which may well please many Catholics, but which ought to challenge many Protestants, who would seek to defend their 'sola scriptura' banner. Reggio, quote: "Such is the condition of the heretics of this age that on nothing do they rely more than that, under the pretense of the word of God, they overthrow the authority of the church; as though the church, His body, could be opposed to the word of Christ, or the head to the body. On the contrary, the authority of the church, then, is illustrated most clearly by the Scriptures; for while on the one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, offers them to us to be read, in doubtful matters explains them faithfully, and condemns whatever is contrary to them; on the other hand, the legal precepts in the Scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord’s day. " (Note: the Protestant would claim that the church has no authority over scripture, but the scripture has authority over the individual, and the church. The archbishop has correctly challenged the Protestants on the premise that if they were truly convicted of following scripture, then they ought to be observing the Sabbath, as enjoined by the 4th commandment. But lo, in submissive surrender to the authority of the church, they continue to observe Sunday, that day created and established upon church tradition, and not on any "Thus saith the Lord" in scripture. What the archbishop proved, and what many Catholics today may deny, but which history on this matter clearly confirms, is that the church in Rome considers itself higher than scripture, claiming authority to change it in accordance to her own traditions). Archbishop de Fosso cont..."Circumcision, enjoined upon Abraham and his seed under such threatening that he who had not been circumcised would be destroyed from among his people, has been so abrogated that the apostle asserts: "If ye be circumcised, ye have fallen from grace, and Christ shall profit you nothing." These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ’s teaching (for He says He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the church. Indeed, if she should be removed (since there must be heresies), who would set forth truth, and confound the obstinacy of heretics? All things will be confused, and soon heresies condemned by her authority will spring up again . (On this matter however, in contradistinction to the Sabbath question, the archbishop goes one step too far. On the subject of circumcision there is indeed a "saith the Lord", as he quotes from the writings of Paul. To credit the 'church' with this change is to incorrectly align Paul's admonition regarding circumcision and the inspiration which brought it to light, with teachings of a church which here in the 16th century claimed that same inspiration and so-called authority to change even the written commandments of God, as per the Sabbath issue, which clearly the church has no such authority. ) The 'authority' the Protestants were being charged with rebelling against was that authority which the archbishop claimed capable of changing the very laws of God, which Protestants at the time by their practice of observing Sunday, agreed to. Thus their hypocrisy was exposed, their protest successfully shown, at least in law, if not morally fraudulent, and the Vatican's authority and right to teach and interpret scripture vindicated. A modern Sabbath keeper however, has no such difficulty. One keeping the commandments of God will always have the moral high ground when compared with those merely observing the precepts and teachings of men, which in some cases attempt to nullify the commandments of God. This goes a long way in explaining the historical persecutions of the Roman church against those who observed Sabbath, such as the early Waldenses and the Celtic church of Britain.