janiebeth

Ya know, I probably read that and maybe did even understand that, LOL, but then got to really thinking about church in general. Okay, back on subject.... All the little things can really side track my worship, so I find having a "noise free" church service to be number one. By noise free I mean worshiping with others who are focused on Jesus and not each other, not on promoting something that is vain or self-serving, and not on trying to outdo the competition. This creates mental noise for me. If the worship challenges my mind to think deeper, which would mean that I start writing notes in margins, I connect fully. Another important factor in a "full-filling" worship service is a sense that 'worship' is not going to be the same each time. The synergy of the group determines this. Overall, I believe that worship for me is not as much the music or the amount of alter calls, but the feeling of fellowshipping with like minded people. Worship to me is a group effort. The dynamics of that group makes it or breaks it.

The pastor must use the Bible primarily for the message. He must exhibit better scholarship and study through the use of cross-referencing and historical context than I have. I enjoy thinking and learning new things. He must be the type to visit members when there is trouble. I like to have someone I can trust when things get tough. He must be decisive in leading and unafraid of crossing political alliances. He must be a man. (You said you were stirring the pot ) If he dresses with lots of expensive suits and gold watches I am suspicious. If he criticizes other churches that are Christian for not fully understanding, as he has a special message from God, I leave. If he invites faith healers that ask repeatedly for donations, I leave. The congregation must be warm yet not oppressive. I like warm, but I need my space. If I feel like I just walked on a used car lot or into a suicide prevention center, I hide. The congregation must be able to pray fervently with a warrior spirit. I enjoy powerful prayer. The congregation should have a spattering of many personal stories like maybe some that were once addicts, some that were born into Christian families, some that were of a different faith, some that are ethnically diverse or at least culturally diverse for me to feel comfortable. If everyone there was born into that denomination, and no one there is a new believer, this looks to me like a club more than a church. The congregation should have social functions ever so often. I like doing fun stuff with believers. They should be a fun group, not just pastor appreciation or an Avon party. The congregation should not have a bunch of strict rules interpreted from the Bible like no coffee, card playing, holding hands before marriage (i.e. legalistic). I wonder if they would try and tell Jesus not to have wine at His last supper. The congregation must not be more than 75% elderly. If the majority or a substantial part of the congregation says that their faith is a private thing, and they don’t speak about their faith to others, I leave. If the congregation is in repeated and constant squabbling over power or vanity, I leave. Size does not impact my comfort or decision, but a church over 300 would be a new experience so anything from 5 to 300 is great. Accommodations like seating or nice restrooms do not impact my decision. I don’t even care if there is inside plumbing. Heating is nice though. Music can sway me a bit if the pianist cannot transpose to keys that most people can sing. (Can’t do G, but like A and E best). Personally, I really enjoy hymnal music that is fast. I like to clap when I sing. I also like singing things I know, so if the music people change the songs every single last week, uhgh. No fun. Music that is like monks chanting will impact my decision somewhat. I like alter calls and invitations to come forward, but I have attended several churches where people not feeling led were pressured to do so. This makes bringing someone new difficult, and I will avoid inviting people if this happens. I attended a couple of churches where the pastor had people dancing and singing while running around the church. I find this to be an invitation to unwelcome spirits and a dangerous practice, so I left. One time I went to help a church in building. I showed up in jeans. The pastor’s wife walked me to the skirt room. I never went back.

I am convinced that prayer is the way we live in the spirit. As we live here in a fallen world, only seeing things as through a mirror reflection, prayer is the time when we align our spirit with the Father. In doing so we release or enable the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We are told to pray without ceasing. We have explained to us how prayer will send aid to us, rid demoniacs of evil, strengthen us, and reveal things to us. We live here, yes, but when we pray we live there.

JW's most basic belief is that Jesus was not the son of God. They actually took out any areas where Jesus's name was written and replaced it with Jehovah. They don't believe that Jesus is God. They are also quite literal in the numbers given in the Bible. They take the 144000 in Rev (which refers to the Jews saved during the tribulation) and see that as all that was chosen. zOdd though as there have been more than that number of so called JW saints by like 1950 or something. They don't see non-Jewish as Gentiles and un-numbered. Much of their doctrine is based on works. If they don't do certain things and check them off the list, they are not a saint. For instance, one must go on so many missions and spend a certain amount of time doing that. I would steer clear. Apostates. Heresy.

Nitish, Something struck me as I was reading your post. You said you are tired of those voices that whisper. Have you considered that these voices might not be your own? Many do not believe that the powers of darkness can attack or inhabit a Christian. I do not believe this for many reasons and all of them quite tangible and evident. I believe that often Christians do not give Satan and his forces enough credit and enough study. You see, the enemy is just that, a force that works diligently and tactfully. The spirits of darkeness have very personal and compelling reasons to find open doors, force doors open, or simply attach to human bodies and spirits. They wander in the cold deserts, in barren lands, living in crags and among thorns and holes. However, they find rest when they have a body to find a little piece of ground to occupy. This doesn't mean that the holy spirit does not own you; it means that they have been given permission by the individual to stay there. They are squatters. As we have free will, we can open our door unwittingly to these forces. Once in they work harder and harder to gain more ground. Each one of these spirits have a specific personality and its name is the sum total of this personality. Sounds to me like you may have a spirit of failure tormenting you. It has found this little open door and has his foot in it trying to force it wider and wider. It found that you reacted to promptings of being a failure. It found your guilt. It then proceeded to work at getting you weaker in that area by tempting you and arranging for opportunities to entice you to sin more and thereby feel more guilty and more of a failure. These enemy troops find help from other spirits to accomplish this, as they know once they have you feeling distant from God, they can find a toe hold for another spirit like maybe the spirit of drunkenness or self-loathing, the spirit of shame or laziness. Have you read how Jesus asked the spirits their names and the one replied Legion as we are many? They all then requested that Jesus not send them out of the country and instead into something else. They wanted a body and they wanted to stay in their physical location. Daniel mentioned his angel having to fight the princes of different counties. This would logically mean that there is order of rank within their troops. They did not want to fight again for rank outside of their social group, possibly. So, what should you do if this be the case? First, I would remove any unclean items from your home: frog figurines, owls, witchcraft symbols and books about the occult. Also look for things like magic cards and masks from areas in the world that commonly call upon dark spirits. Then, get your pastor to place oil above the door posts and windows while praying for cleansing. I know this sounds like mumbo jumbo, but these spirits must obey the word of God. The key is that you use this power given to you. It would be like having an intruder sleeping on your couch and threatening you; you have a gun loaded and ready but instead argue with the intruder and don't use the gun. Next, you need to pray and use the Bible scriptures that proclaim God's power and authority. Speak directly to the spirits by name and command them in Jesus' name to leave you and your house. Command them to not use other spirits for aid against you. Tell them that you are binding them from speaking to you or others in the name of Jesus who has all power and authority. Keep using lots of power scripture quotes. Don't stop praying for days. Also, fast for at least 3 days while praying whenever you feel hungry. Praise God out loud often. Then, once your voices to sin stop, don't you stop. They are tenacious and want back in bad. You must feast on the word of God daily and without fail. After a while you will hear the voices again telling you lies. Remember Axis Sally from the radio programs of WWII? She would broadcast how someone's wife was having and affair and use his name, she would list the names of fallen soldiers, she would mix lies and truth to undermine the troops mentally. She would then play popular music for the US to get the troops to listen to her broadcast. It was very disheartening for the soldiers fighting in the war. This is where you need to have a rear guard ready, someone watching your back. This is God and His angels. Call upon them and repeat the victory versus. As someone here posted that you need to give it all to God, this is true. But, you also have to use what God gave you as weapons of war and defense. Everyday put on the whole armor of God. If you are drawn to unrighteous things, say out loud, I rebuke you spirit of darkness and in the Power and Blood of Jesus I command you to leave. Also, realize that you may not be alone in this habitual sin, and those involved with you in it need to be distanced. Satan will use their voices and lies to trick you also. Remember, this is war. Satan and his forces are here and reign here. Their appointed time is not up and they are free to torment us. However, if we live instead in the spirit of God, placing our minds in line with His, we will be safe. They will not be able to truly hurt us. You can have victory, so don't believe those lying voices. Follow God's word and do what it says: fast and pray. May the Lord richly bless you. Janiebeth

You need to read the book War on The Saints from early 1900's. It explains everything concerning demonic powers. Another one is Pigs in the Parlor. The first is open source and available online in full text.

Hello and thanks for the post. Actually, I meet very many people who hold this very same opinion. They find God (the Christian God that is) to be cruel and judgmental; His power to them is outside their comprehension, and since they do not see the Creator as having any ownership, they really cannot understand why He would be so angry with them--they were just born that way, so why judge so harshly. In addition to the other posters here, you might be able to explain the Christian understanding that Hell was created for Satan. As there really is only two choices as a master, God or Satan, if we are not under one we are then under the other. Of course, this will not be easy to explain as non-Christians just don't believe that. They believe that we can be "The Captain of Our Own Ship" (Invictus). However, this plays directly into the idea that any denial of God's authority is really just putting Satan in charge as he is against God having any authority over him. Thereby, he is the leader in the rebellion against God. This makes Satan the new master. Hell was created for him and all his children. So, when we are judged we are to partake in either Jesus as our Master or Satan with each having their own reward. Those who choose to rebel get the same reward as their master, Satan. Their is no grey area. They will follow their master into Hell.

Interesting topic and post. Got me thinking about culture more than race. You see, I don't believe there is such a thing as race, so I refuse to check boxes on forms that make me define myself in those terms. Instead, I draw a box that says 'American' and put a check by that. I mean really, I don't know all of my predecessors; I might be part Native American or Jewish or African or something. I certainly am not white--more a pinky beige. However, if they gave me a box that had Kentuck Hillbilly, I would put a check by that even though I was born in Wisconsin. Wait, no, I wasn't born in Wisconsin; the closest hospital was in Michigan. Does that make me a Michiganian? OH NO! I am having a crisis in my identity now! My parents told me I was a Kentuck because all my dead relatives came from Kentucky. My town told me I was a Hillbilly because everyone else here is a Hillbilly. But, I have all my teeth and I have no idea how to make whiskey! Maybe all my siblings were right; they always told me I didn't look like anyone in the family, which proved I was adopted. Maybe I was. Does that mean I'm not really what I think I am? You see my sisters are all fat, and I'm the only skinny person in my whole family. Furthermore, they all have curly hair and I don't. Come to think of it, I have freckles and no one else does. See what you did, Jo Jo! (giggling uncontrollably) Really, anyone can say they don't fit the exact box for something that defines you. I bet you're not really Black either. I bet you are Brown as I have only met a few Black people in my life and really they looked more purple than Black. I even know someone who says he is Black but looks tan with really curly hair. He was adopted by pinky-beige parents, so maybe he isn't really from Africa. He told me he has never been to Africa either. And, here's a question: Why does Obama say he's Black when his mom isn't from Africa? How does that work? Doesn't Black plus White make Grey? He should be saying he's Grey, not Black. And, if Obama is Black partially, why doesn't he speak Blackanese? He uses the verb 'to be' like people who speak Whiteanese. (e.g. He be Black if he say so.) And, he drinks beer in a glass; saw this on the news. Now everyone knows that Black people don't drink beer in glasses. Well, at least I never saw one do that, so must be true. Or, could this be CULTURE? (serious part now...) I do know how you feel when you are out of your culture. Me, I don't feel comfortable hanging out with liberals. So, I avoid them. Is this church you have been attending not your culture? Are you saying that you are more comfortable with rappers who do drugs, carry pistols, and have lots of women pawing at their oversized suits? Or, are you saying that you are more comfortable with people who do something else? I am wondering if your discomfort is due to the culture in this church or the skin colors? If it is just skin color truly, and you don't want to be around Christian Rappers (is there such a thing?), maybe you could find a church with Christians from India. People from India have really dark skin too. I believe there are lots of Indians in Texas. Oh, hey, there are lots of Mexican Christians in Texas too. They are dark skinned. Well, God Bless you, your skin, your culture, and your search for comfort. I know exactly how you feel being uncomfortable in church; I squirm in Lutheran churches. I feel much better in Pentecostal ones. Just my culture, not them, me. Lutherans just don't know how to joke around, which makes me uncomfortable. And, they all say the same thing at the same time. How do they do that? You see, I'm always saying "Praise the Lord, preach it Brother, " when I should be quiet and not saying "And also to you," when I am supposed to.

To add to the descriptions of angels here I will add some of the places I remember angels being described. This may be repeated in some of the responses, but I skimmed the responses fairly quickly. 1. Angels are not females, as Hollywood portraits them. Often people fall down in fear when they see them. They are large and often are described as warriors. 2. Jesus, when talking about the little children, said that these little ones have an angel each one beholding the face of God and that anyone who should make one of these little ones fall would rather have a millstone tied around his neck and tossed into the sea (or something close to that). 3. There is a hierarchy in their order (order of importance and power). An arch-angel has the designation of the highest order as the prefix denotes the top of the heap as in arch-bishop or arch-enemy. 4. God created them in different forms as some have wings that cover their eyes and feet as they are in the constant presence of God; seraphim and cherubim are different (not at all like little fat babies either). Satan was the most beautiful of all the angels with scales that shimmered with great light and a throat that was like organ pipes (singing instruments). 5. Angels can be protectors as Satan told Jesus that the Father would send an angel to protect him should he dash His foot. 6. Angels guard the gates of Paradise with flaming swords so that the Tree of Life should not be available to Fallen Man. Ezekiel (or one of the Old Testament prophets?) prayed for 20 days without a response, but on the 21st an angel appeared and told him that he managed to arrive simply because he didn't cease praying. This angel had to battle the Prince of Persia, Greece, and a bunch of other princess to get to him. However, because this prophet didn't stop, the angel was able to find the strength to defeat the enemies and arrive. Overall, I see this when looking at the scriptures on angels: There is a war going on right now. They are fighting for us at the command of God. Our prayers strengthen them. They are not all the same. We will not all be the same either, though we will not be angels. There is order of importance in Heaven and how we perform here has to do with our order there. So, we need to take advantage of God's provision and use these angels. Hope this helps

Sevenseas, thanks for your openness in your reply. I agree with your assessment, and I have witnessed on many occasion believers being irrational in respect to spiritual messages, feelings, dreams, and other such gnostic occurrences. Your comment reminded me of this quote from the text. Quote: War on the Saints (Penn-Lewis, Evans, 1911) “ Passivity must not be confused with quietness, or the meek and quiet spirit," which, in the sight of God, is of great price. Quietness of spirit, of heart, of mind, of manner, voice and expression, may be co-existent with the most effective activity in the will of God (1 Thess. 4: 11, Gr. "Ambitious to be quiet."). THE CLASS OF BELIEVERS WHO ARE OPEN TO PASSIVITY The persons open to "passivity," of whom the evil spirits take advantage as ground for their activity, are those who become fully surrendered to God, and are brought into direct contact with the supernatural world by receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. There are some who use the word "surrender," and think they are surrendered fully to carry out the will of God, but are only so in sentiment and purpose, for actually they walk by the reason and judgment of the natural man; although they submit all their plans to God, and because of this submittal sincerely believe they are carrying out His will. But those who are really "surrendered," give themselves up to implicitly obey, and carry out at all costs, what is revealed to them supernaturally as from God, and not what they themselves plan and reason out to be the will of God. Believers who surrender their wills, and all they have and are to God, yet who WALK BY THE USE OF THEIR NATURAL MINDS, are not the ones who are open to the "passivity" which gives ground to evil spirits, although they may, and do, give ground to them in other ways. These we may call Class No. 1, as shown in the following table. THREE CLASSES AMONG BELIEVERS I. Unsurrendered. These use the word "surrender," but do not really know it, and act it out in practice. Believers in this stage are more reasonable than those in No. 2, because their faculties have not been yielded into passivity. These believers call those in the next class "cranks," "faddists," ..extremists," etc. II. Surrendered, Deceived, Possessed. These seem more "foolish" than those in Class 1, but in reality are more advanced. In order to understand the actions of No. 2, it is needful to read them from their inner standpoint, for to them all that they do seems right. These are open to both Divine and Satanic power. Are liable to be "puffed up." III. Surrendered but Undeceived, Dispossessed and Victorious. The mind is liberated, and all the faculties are operating. These are open to light and all that is Divine, but they seek watchfully to close themselves to all that is Satanic. Class No. 1 are "surrendered" in will, but not surrendered in fact, in the sense of being ready to carry out "obedience to the Holy Ghost" at all costs. They consequently know little of conflict, and nothing of the devil, excepting as a tempter or accuser. They do not understand those who speak of the "onslaughts of Satan," for, they say, they are not "attacked" in this way. But the devil does not always attack when he can. He reserves his attack until it suits him. If the devil does not attack a man, it does not prove that he could not. Another class among believers--Class No. 2--are those who are surrendered in such a measure of abandonment that they are ready to obey the Spirit of God at all costs, with the result that they become open to a passivity which gives ground for the deception and possession of evil spirits. These surrendered believers (Class No. 2) fall into passivity after the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, (1) because of their determination to carry out their "surrender" at all costs; (2) their relationship with the spiritual world, which opens to them supernatural communications, which they believe to be all of God; (3) their "surrender" leading them to submit, subdue and make all things subservient to this supernatural plane. The origin of the evil passivity which gives the evil spirits opportunity to deceive, and then possess, is generally a wrong interpretation of Scripture, or wrong thoughts or beliefs about Divine things. Some of these interpretations of Scripture, or wrong conceptions, which cause the believer to give way to the passive condition, we have already referred to in a previous chapter. The passivity may affect the whole man, in spirit, soul and body, when it has become very deep, and is of many years' standing. The progress is generally very gradual, and insidious in growth, and consequently the release from it is gradual and slow.” End Quote I ha ve not read the entire book as of yet; however, I am struck by the lack of conversations concerning the workings of Satan within the life and mind of believers. Your comment concerning those who are deceived by evil spirits struck me. “MISCONCEPTION OF TRUTH PART OF "TEACHINGS" OF DECEIVING SPIRITS As this conception of self-effacement, and loss of self-consciousness is contrary to the believer's full use of the faculties, which the Spirit of God requires for co-operation with Him, evil spirits gain ground on the basis of this deception about "death." The misconception of what death means in practice, was really part of their "teachings," subtly suggested, and received by the man who was ignorant of the possibility of deception, over, what looked like, devoted, whole-hearted surrender to God. The "teachings of demons" can, therefore, be based on truth, under the guise of misconception, or misinterpretation of the truth, whilst the believer is honestly holding the truth itself. The effect of the deception on the believer is, in due time, an "unconsciousness" produced by evil spirits, which is hard to break. In his state of unconsciousness, he has no ability to discern, recognize, feel or know things around him, or in himself. He is "unconscious"note 18 of his actions, ways and manners, together with a hyper-self-consciousness which he is unconscious of, and which makes him easily hurt, but "unconscious" of his own hurting of others. He has practically become stoical, and unable to see the effect of his actions in putting others into suffering. He acts "unconsciously," without volitional thinking, reasoning, imagining, deciding, what be says and does. His actions are consequently mechanical and automatic. He is "unconscious" of sometimes being a channel for the transmission of words, thoughts, feelings which pass through him apart from the action of his will and his knowledge of the source. "Unconsciousness" as the effect of demon-possession, becomes a formidable stumbling block in the way of deliverance, for the evil spirits may hold, hinder, attack, divert, suggest, impress, draw, or do any other equally offensive, and injurious thing, in or through the person, whilst he is "unconscious" of their workings.” End quote Thanks for your reply. Have you read this book? If not, I would highly suggest it for anyone ministering to the body of Christ as I have found little understanding of this important subject: How to protect oneself from evil, which is very real and often very ignored within the Church.

In the book "War on the Saints" by Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts (1911), I found this passage: THE MEANING OF "POSSESSION" DEFINED Such cases as these are known to-day, amongst even true believers in Europe, as well as in heathen China, but "possession" is much more wide-spread than is supposed, if the word "possession" is taken to mean just what it is, i.e., a hold of evil spirits on a man in any shade of degree; for an evil spirit "possesses" whatever spot he holds, even though it be in an infinitesimal degree, and from that one spot, as a spider finds his base ere he weaves his web, the intruder works to obtain further hold of the whole being. Christians are as open to possession by evil spirits as other men, and become possessed because they have, in most cases, unwittingly fulfilled the conditions upon which evil spirits work, and, apart from the cause of willful sin, given ground to deceiving spirits, through (1) accepting their counterfeits of the Divine workings, and (2) cultivating passivity, and non-use of the faculties; and this through misconception of the spiritual laws which govern Christian life. It is this matter of ground given which is the crucial point of all. All believers acknowledge known sin to be ground given to the enemy, and even unknown sin in the life, but they do not realize that every thought suggested to the mind by wicked spirits, and accepted, is ground given to them; and every faculty unused invites their attempted use of it. The primary cause of deception and possession in surrendered believers may be condensed into one word, passivity; that is, a cessation of the active exercise of the will in control over spirit, soul and body, or either, as may be the case. It is, practically, a counterfeit of "surrender to God." The believer who "surrenders" his "members"--or faculties--to God, and ceases to use them himself, thereby falls into "passivity" which enables evil spirits to deceive, and possess any part of his being which has become passive. The deception over passive surrender may be exampled thus: a believer surrenders his "arm" to God. He permits it to hang passive, waiting for "God to use it." He is asked, "why do you not use your arm?" and he replies "I have surrendered it to God. I must not use it now; God must use it." But will God lift the arm for the man? Nay, the man himself must lift it, note 1 and use it, seeking to understand intelligently God's mind in doing so. End of quote. As I am seeking to understand why I do what I do not will to do--in fact, I do things against my free-will, just as Paul did crying out in his guilt concerning this earthly body--I began reading this book. This section, chapter 4, rings true. I finally have an answer besides, “Call on the name of Christ,” or “The battle is in your mind,” or “Put on the armor of God,” or “You must not be saved if you are experiencing demonic control in your life.” I have also been told, repeatedly, that people give Satan way too much attention as he is conquered. He has no power over a Christian.” However, after experiencing spiritual warfare for years myself, these words became empty platitudes. I am not saying that the verses referenced are empty; I am saying that those of us who have unwittingly fallen into surrendering a small section of their members to the control of darkness need something more. The book continues with this quote: “THE WORD "PASSIVITY" DESCRIBES OPPOSITE CONDITION TO ACTIVITY The word "passivity" simply describes the opposite condition to activity; and in the experience of the believer it means, briefly, (1) loss of self-control--in the sense of the person himself controlling each, or all of the departments of his personal being; and (2) loss of freewill--in the sense of the person himself exercising his will as the guiding principle of personal control, in harmony with the will of God. All the danger of "passivity" in the surrendered believer, lies in the advantage taken of the passive condition by the powers of darkness. Apart from these evil forces, and their workings through the passive person, "passivity" is merely inactivity, or idleness. In normal inactivity, that is, when the evil spirits have not taken hold, the inactive person is always holding himself ready for activity; whereas in "passivity" which has given place to the powers of darkness, the passive person is unable to act by his own volition. The chief condition, therefore, for the working of evil spirits in a human being, apart from sin, is passivity, in exact opposition to the condition which God requires from His children for His working in them. Granted the surrender of the will to God, with active choice to do His will as it may be revealed to him, God requires co-operation with His Spirit, and the full use of every faculty of the whole man. In brief, the powers of darkness aim at obtaining a passive slave, or captive to their will; whilst God desires a regenerated man, intelligently and actively willing, and choosing, and doing His will in liberation of spirit, soul and body from slavery. The powers of darkness would make a man a machine, a tool, an automaton; the God of holiness and love desires to make him a free, intelligent sovereign in his own sphere--a thinking, rational, renewed creation created after His own image (Eph. 4: 24). Therefore God never says to any faculty of man, "Be thou idle." God does not need, nor demand non-activity in the believer, for His working in, and through him; but evil spirits demand the utmost non-activity and passivity.” End quote. I am posting this here for those who may want to debate these ideas, those who find themselves in this predicament also, and those who may find themselves ministering to those trapped by repeated sin. I welcome your responses and opinions.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 Yes, this is a promise from God, but would the passage's meaning change at all if the word "should" were replaced with "would"? Also, I would welcome, with humility, your opinion on this quote in light of the parables and fig tree also in the Bible. I do believe that we don't know our destiny, only God does. We must keep our lamps full, not fall asleep, and produce fruit. Personal question: Have you ever seen someone get saved and be very enthusiastic just to go back to old beliefs and ways within a year or two? I have and this reminded me of the parable of the seed and the sower. However, Satan is said to be the one who plants the weeds. The lady first described in the original post seems to be among the thorns and weeds, or this could simply be the work of oppressive spirits. As Christians, we are called to act on her behalf. Doing nothing would be unchristian. We don't know if like in Timothy, "he was never of us" or if she is just being controlled by a power other than Christ. Obviously, this power is affecting the person who posted this too. Overall, she may not have been truly saved, may have been but is under oppression, or is not producing fruit and in danger of being cut off. I do not mean to make others doubt their faith, which is a danger when speaking of these parables. However, mature Christians should be aware that God saves us to do His will. We do have responsibilities. I've often wondered who I will be surprised to both see and not see in Glory. Those who rest alone on your verse here may not have the full picture of God's grace and may not respond to His warnings. Thanks, Joe, for a lively debate.

Through the scientific study of DNA markers from all nations of the world, science has definitively proven that all humans came from one female and one male. If this information is not being widely publizied, it is because Satan is hiding it from the general public. However, the study was aired on PBS several years ago in a documentary. The scientist traveled the whole world collecting blood samples and traced each one back showing the exact migration of each human ethnic group back to Mesopotamia and to one female and one male. Additionally, using your logic, how would it be even possible for two beings to "evolve" with the exact DNA sequence necessary to mate? In other words, how could the exact creature separately mutate and mutate and mutate from one prototype into a different prototype and end up matched up enough to mate? Even more unlikely would be that this mutation happened at the same point in prehistory and in the same geological location so that they could even find each other and mate. I find it odd that people have a difficult time believing that Jesus raised people from the dead, Jonah was inside a fish, and the Red Sea parted, but they can believe that life forms mutated at the exact time into male and female forms, found each other, and then on and on until humans came about. Now that really takes faith to believe! (off topic, but I really dislike that I can't format anything while typing. why oh why can't I at least indent a paragraph?) Oh well.

.... You really think breaking us is the only way to free us?.... Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30 I see your point clearly. I also see that Jesus calls those who are burdened. Once the burden is released, we can feel the power of Jesus. People without burdens tend not to even look for Jesus; they are usually pretty satisfied and self-sufficient. This would be an interesting poll to start: How many of you found the Lord in a time of peace and comfort? How many of you found the Lord when you were overwhelmed with burden and trouble? Just a thought.

Does anyone know if the Mark of the Beast is said to come before the seven years or in the middle of them after the first 3.5? Does anyone have evidence that once a person receives the Mark, he/she can't remove it? Someone in chat said they believed that once someone took the Mark, they were done and couldn't recant.