mevosper

Recall that all judgment in heaven and on earth has been given to Christ: Jhn 5:22, 27 KJV - For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: ... And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Since Christ has all judgment authority in heaven and on earth, we stand before the judgment seat of Christ daily, even right now. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, where before Christ, the temple was a physical one. God met with Moses and the people of Israel from the mercy seat (Ex 25:22). Now that our hearts are where God's laws are written (2 Cor 3:3), his throne/judgment seat is within us. Once one's eyes are opened to this, they can then "follow the trail" and determine exactly who the antichrist is (the one that sits himself on the throne of God proclaiming to be God). But that is for a different thread.

1Jo 1:7 KJV - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Mat 12:31 KJV - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 1Co 3:11-13 KJV - For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. This fire spoken of in Corinthians is that fire (temptations, trials, tribulations, etc) we go through in the flesh. When we die, we only take that which we have used to glorify God with. Everything else will rot in the grave with our flesh and bones. Look at it like a tree in which there is a vein of gold growing within. When that tree is cut down and cast into the fire, all that will be left is that gold that has grown inside. Does that makes sense? This is the transformation that 1 Cor 15 is talking about. When we are changed, in a moment. When we die there is an immediate transformation of what has been quickened within us by the Spirit of God. 1Co 15:51-55 KJV - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Christ on numerous occasions talks about the opening spiritual eyes. Revelation 3:18: "...and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see". This is spiritual talk for seeing with spiritual eyes. Christ healed numerous people of physical blindness. These are "shadows" of the real, the meaning of which is to open one's spiritual eyes. 2 Kings 6:17, Elisha prays that God would open the eyes of his servant to see the army on the hills around. This isn't a physical army, it's a spiritual army. God is spirit, and those that worship him must worship him in spirit. (John 4:23, 24). This isn't talking about singing spiritual songs during the worship service on Sundays. It's talking about in the Spirit that we are born again with. In Revelation, John is taken in the spiritual form no less than 4 times (Rev 1:10, 4:2, 17:3, 21:10). There is no reason to think or believe that this so called "spiritualizing" is bad. 1. Christ's physical body was raised from the dead and before his disciples, he ascended in a cloud with his physical body. In the verse you are talking about, where he will return in like manner, he will return in a cloud. Dan 7:13, Mat 24:30, Mat 26:64, Mark 14:62 indicate coming in the "clouds of heaven". Not physical clouds, not clouds we can see with the physical eye. Deu 4:11 "And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness". Job 22:14 "Thick clouds are a covering to him...". There is no spiritualizing away here. It is all spiritual. 2. Supernatural events? Like only things that God, who is spirit, can do? 3. Clouds is not a metaphor for saints and angels. It is meant to create the idea of concealment or hidden from physical view. Recall no flesh has seen God. Clouds represent the idea that God cannot be seen by human eyes. 4. In Rev 19:11, John sees heaven open. This is portrayed physically as the rending of the veil in the temple at Christ's death on the Cross. Spiritually speaking, this is what happened. Christ's death was victorious and he is the true and rightful king. He now reigns as King of Heaven and Earth. The sword that proceeds out of his mouth, should we expect this to be a "real" sword rather than an "earthly" sword? No! It means his word is judgment and power - even now. This is a spiritual look at what took place at the time of his physical death. Remember Christ when he was on the cross said "It is finished". It is accomplished. It has come to completion, It is fulfilled. 5. Judgment did come to Christ's enemies (John 5:22, 27, 30, 8:16, 9:39, 12:31). It came at his first advent. The judgment was against those who did not believe in him, and against those that wanted to hang on to the Old Testament laws: the pharisees, lawyers, and scribes. Recall all the woes to them in Matt 23, Luke 6, and Luke 11. You are correct. None of this is related to a rapture.

Tigger, did anyone actually address the "problem"? It is easy to see how these verses could be rapture verses with preconceived ideas. Here's another look at these verses. 1Th 4:17 KJV - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Christ ascended into heaven in a cloud (into concealement). When God descended onto Mt Sinai to talk with Moses, he was in a cloud. When he descended into the temple in Exodus, it was in a cloud. His appearance was always "concealed" by a cloud. "Then we which are alive": To better understand this, we need to first look at vs 16. "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first". These are those believers (even saints and God-fearing folk in the OT) which are currently (at the time of the writing) physically dead. Once Christ's work on the cross was complete, all sins had been atoned for. It was not possible for those to be with God in spirit before hand as they were just dead flesh. But the Spirit quickens (Rom 8:11). Those that were asleep prior are now resurrected and with the Lord. This is why the dead in Christ would be taken first. Paul would certainly not be with the Lord first as he was still alive when Thessalonians was written. Mat 24:41 KJV - Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Can you tell me the time of your death? Will it be while walking to the grocery store? Will it be in a car accident? Will it be of an illness or sickness? Heart attack? There doesn't need to be any real mystery in this. Verse 39 is talking about the flood that took away all that were not entering into the Ark. They all died a physical death, by drowning most likely. But some may have died by concussion as bodies were being thrown about in the raging waters at the time. When someone we know dies, sometimes we'll say the "Lord took them home." Luk 17:34-36 KJV - I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. The same as Matt 24:41 When people talk about the rapture or 2nd coming, there is an expectation of a physical return. If one interprets these 2 events physically, there has to be a reconciliation of 3 different modes of transportation, or 3 different ways in which he is returning: in a cloud, with a boatload of saints on horses, and/or as lightning from the east to west. How are these 3 different modes of transportation reconciled into the 2 event(s) of the Rapture and 2nd coming.

What has happened in America today is the people have allowed their government to be usurped by bank, religious, and political imposters. We've allowed our rights to be taken, we've allowed our Constitution to be turned into "just a piece of paper". I could go on and on with this. This does not mean Revelation 17 is talking about America, though. The kingdom of Israel back in the OT were just as (if not more so) promiscuous (spiritually speaking) than America today. Here are a few things that would OT Israel fit in the Revelation 17 outline as well: Just as Marilyn C pointed out, the Temple priests also wore purple and scarlet (Ex 28:8). God, through the prophets condemns Israel and Judah for their whoredoms (2 Chr 21:13, Jer3) Ezekiel 16 is a great story of how God found Israel and made a covenant with her, then how she played the harlot. God declares that he will cause all Israel's "lovers" to hate her (vs Ez 16:37-43). Compare with Rev 17:16. Peter and John in Acts 4 were teaching in the temple, and 5000 men believed. They were then brought before the high priests "council" to be questioned. When Peter and John returned to their own company, they worshipped God and proclaimed that the "kings of the earth" stood up against the Lord and against his Christ. Pontius Pilate and Herod are also named as gathering together against the Lord. compare Rev 17:14.

Yep, a perfect example of Christianity today (in America)

The whole idea of America being Babylon or idea that it is going down the "pooper" annoys me. It is exactly this sort of talk that stifles that fight to keep America alive. It seems like a number of individuals are waiting for something "glorious" to happen so they won't have to go through the demise of America. This is damning to America and should stop. One thing that will help is correct interpretation and rightly dividing the word of God. Revelation 17 to me, seems to be talking about the harlotry of "fake" religious leadership and the kings of the earth (some of the kings of Israel and Judah included as there were a number of corrupt kings in Judah and Israel). John only saw the harlot in scarlet and purple AFTER he was taken in the spirit (vs3). This doesn't mean he was peering into a crystal ball into the future. It means he was given spiritual insight to see things as God does. He is seeing the "heart" of things (1 Sam 16:7). There is mention in Deu 7:1 and Acts 13:19 regarding seven nations that were destroyed by the people of Israel when they were taking possession of the land of Canaan: I wish I had Revelation 17 all figured out. With that said, though, I feel like we can find more answers for Revelation 17 by looking back through the history of Israel, rather than trying to guess what future city Mystery Babylon will be.

I decided to quit smoking after 20 years. Had to do it cold turkey. While I was sick one time ( I didn't smoke while I had the flu or cold), I decided that this week of "forced" quitting would be my jumping off point. That was 13 years ago, and I haven't touched one since. It is a commitment. Smoking is not going to send you to hell, but it could get you in a grave quicker. But so can driving a car, or riding a bike, diving in a pool. God decides when it is time for him to retrieve you from your earthly body. If you wish to live in a healthier body, you should act on quitting. If you think it is a sin, you should act on quitting. if you don't quit, enjoy it. 1Co 6:12-13 KJV - All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

Here's what I find confusing. The disciples have been dead a long time. Are they still waiting for the promise of God that came through Christ, the promise of eternal life? If so, then did Christ not fulfill all? If they are with the Lord now, in his eternal kingdom, why would they want to come back to this earth, this abode of the dead?

The wind blowing here is likened to God "planting seeds" of his spirit (his power, might, knowledge, will, etc) where he wills. God determines where his spirit will be given and unto whom. But as the wind blows, who has been planted prior or who is next to be planted, we do not know. All we can do as disciples is to water. This is also seen when Christ, after his resurrection, blows the comforter onto his disciples and told them "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:22). Once Christ's work on the cross was complete and he appeared to them in his glorified body, the spirit of God was able to once again dwell with/in mankind. And it was first given to the disciples. This was their resurrection (the spirit quickens the mortal body).

I'm of the opinion that all sin is forgiven, except that of the blaspheme of the Holy Ghost. (Matt 12:31). There is no need for him to return to "save the Israelites". The kingdom of God is not by observation, for the kingdom of God is within (Luk 17:20). Where God is, there is heaven. So when Christ says in Matt 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" , he's talking about the Spirit of God being within and growing within us, in our hearts and in our minds - the new temple being now our body. Many of the rapture belief will point to Noah and the Ark as an example of how God will "save". But Noah's ark is a type, or a shadow of the real. We also see this same ark in the Ark of the Covenant, where the laws were placed. Now that the laws are written on the fleshy tables of the heart, can you see now what the ark is? Or what Noah's ark and the Ark of the Covenant are representative of? When Noah, his family, and the animals emerged out of the ark, they began to plant and repopulated the "new" earth. This is a type of "new birth". When Moses handed down his law, it was necessary in order for God to dwell or "tabernacle" with the Israelites. Of course this is a type or a shadow of the real. This was literally heaven on earth in which the tribe of levi, specifically the seed of Aaron that ministered unto God. They were in direct contact with the God of creation, in a manner of speaking. There was no higher place to attain. A good question to ask is: Did the Pharisees and religious leaders of the time understand that their exclusive access to heaven was going to changed? Or, put in another way, access was going to be given to all? Of course they were probably under the impression that Israel once again, would be the proverbial creme of the crop. But this is a fleshly desire and one that will not be attained in the flesh. God is spirit, and spirit is the real.

Too much confusion surrounding Dispensationalism to be sound teaching. For example, At what point will the disciples be raptured?

Dispensationalism? Reject it. False teaching

can I step in here. Actually, the Greeks (Gentiles) came looking for Christ (John 12:20-26). And again, wasn't it Cornelius (Roman/Gentile) had a dream (Acts 10) to call for Peter (the Rock that Christ talked about building the church on).

Serving I think one needs to be careful when talking about Torah and if we should be following that or not. Not sure if that was the intention of your post, but that is one message I picked up. There were others, but this one stuck out. The Apostles, deciding whether or not the Gentiles should follow circumcision and the Mosaic law, recommended only a few things that they should obey. In Acts 15, there was quite a bit of debate (vs 2, vs7) about whether the Gentiles should be circumcised or not (vs 2, vs 5). This was a law given to Abraham for his descendants. Eventually this came down to the entire Mosaic law (vs 5). Here's where Peter steps in (the one upon whom the church will be built) and makes clear the reason for the gospel. By grace is there salvation, not through works. (vs 7-11). In the conculsion of this debate, it was determined that they should not have to bear the burden of circumsion or the Mosaic law, but to obstain from fornication, pollutions of idols, from things strangled and from blood (vs 20). Interesting note, the word "church" is used in verse 22 with respect to a gathering of jews, as opposed to Gentiles. Circumcision and the Mosaic Law were not required any longer. The old way had been done away with and the new way had been set. My perspective on the reason for the Mosaic law and circumcision is a bit different. In order for God to dwell with his people (pre-Christ), He had to bring heaven to earth (so to speak). In order for that to happen, specific requirements needed to be fulfilled. These being the Mosaic Law: the apparel of the priests, the daily sacrifices, the feasts, etc. I'm not sure why, but I feel the 10 commandments (Ex 20) are the specific laws that God writes on the fleshy tables of the heart.

The seven year treaty, true or false? False.

i agree. I think Daze and Serving nailed it.

If I could, I would add one thought to this (nice, work by the way). "...then the forgiveness will be of the Gentiles instead." I would say "forgiveness will be of the Gentiles also" rather as the atonement was for all man. First to the Jew then to the Gentile.

It seems important to understand what is meant by "every eye". Is this every eye at the time he was pierced, or every eye from that point forward to the future, or every eye since the beginning of creation? Within the same statement/verse, it also says "...and they also which pierced him". As funny as the CNN response was, it would be a bit difficult for those who pierced him to view this on CNN or even television for that matter. Rev 1:7 KJV - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

In the context, Christ is talking with his disciples in general and Peter specifically. His comment is directed at Peter here: Mat 16:18 KJV - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I don't think I'm too far from the intent/spirit of this exchange. Peter then becomes somewhat of a "spokesperson" for the disciples (Acts 1:15, 2:14,38, 3:4,6,12, 4:8, ...). Christ knew Peter would be the outspoken one. It was primarily Peter we see in the beginning of Acts. Paul continues the work of building what Peter started. In the end of John 21, Christ gives Peter more instruction concerning feeding his sheep.

This thread on the 7 weeks has been very interesting. I do believe Christ was the fulfillment of the first 3.5 weeks. Looking at Christ's work on the cross as being the atonement for all man (Jews first, then the Gentiles), and with the idea that sanctification would come through the line of Jacob(Israel), there can be some interesting observations from Acts 10 as being the transition from "just Jews" to "all man"/Gentiles. Cornelius, a Roman officer (a Gentile, which seems minimal from first observation), is given a vision from the Lord (It was quite something to see as the spirit had been "poured out on" the Gentiles as well. Acts 10:45). Peter also is given a vision from the Lord that "what is cleansed, call thou not unclean." Peter's vision was about all manner of 4-footed beasts among the earth. These two "incidents" seem to be a "handing off" of salvation eligibility. Where before, just those who worshipped at the physical temple, the Jews, were receiving the atonement by the blood of animals. But now, with Christ being the perfect sacrifice for all men, Gentiles could receive the atonement and the spirit. This was once restricted to the Jews, who were given privilege to worship at the temple where God dwelt. Christ said of Peter "upon this rock, I will build my church". Was there 3.5 years between Pentecost and Peter/Cornelius meet? Good thread Last Daze.

Zion, A third Temple in Jerusalem is a Divine necessity. Sometime in the future (and perhaps closer than we think) God will allow Satan and the Antichrist to take control of the world for 3 1/2 years. The Antichrist will set up the Abomination of Desolation -- a blasphemous idol of himself through which Satan will be worshiped by the whole world. The Antichrist will sit in this Temple and call himself God, while he blasphemes God. Please note that Christ prophesied of the Abomination of Desolation as a future event, and Paul prophesied of the Man of Sin, the Son, of Perdition (also called the Beast and the Antichrist) (2 Thess 2:1-4): 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. And since we are know the temple of Christ (1Co 6:19 KJV - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?), we need to look inside to be sure it is not "ourself" that is sitting on that throne. The kingdom of God comes without observation of the eyeball. Let him who reads understand.

nothing sneaky or "assault"-like intended. I did not take the time to review the reason for the question. My apology. With the scriptures you produced, it's not clear to me that the bible indicates a physical 3rd temple being built. My intention was NOT to sound offensive, but rather it seemed that your idea and belief is the 3rd temple will be built - for whatever reason. If there is a 3rd temple built, it is not biblical. The bible teaches the temple as being the body. This was my intention with the 3 scriptures I posted.

where do you find this in scripture: "he (Antichrist) will build the temple"? Do you see this as being the only way to fulfill the "Antichrist/3rd temple/Abomination that causes desolation" event? The logic here seems to be a man-made theory in order to fulfill a misunderstood prophecy. Okay, get your Bible out and put your thinking cap on... Here goes... Seems like an awful lot of biblical "gymnastics" in your thought process. You are missing these 3 points: 1 Cor 3:16 - our bodies are the temple Luke 17:20 - 21 - the kingdom of God is within you Eze 45 - Shows the holy place for the sanctuary is not located in the city of Jerusalem.

Here's an interesting verse I don't think anyone has posted in this topic. This was recorded at the beginning of Solomons reign (which is a very interesting read by the way). I continue to believe that it was righteous desire, though God probably planted this strong desire within David's heart. Hiram, the king of Tyre who provided the Cedar, was blessed, overjoyed, to be considered for his task to Solomon. The story is in 1 kings 5. 1 Kings 3:2Only the people sacrificed in high places, because there was no house built unto the name of the LORD, until those days.