Persuaded

"Six days thou shalt do thy work..." How many folks that preach Christian sabbath observance work a six day week to comply with the commandment, I wonder? I never hear anybody preach the first half of the commandment, only the 7th day part...

Melchizedek has another parallel in Adonizedek of Joshua 10. Both names mean "lord of (or is) righteousness", both were kings of (Jeru)Salem, both lack recorded genealogical records. Except one is an imposter, a phony, and an adversary. Indeed, Josh 10 reads like Revelation- a 10 king coalition lead by a false type of Christ, being fought by a guy with Jesus' Hebrew name (Joshua); in defeat the kings hide in caves, and their defeat is accompanied by signs in he sun and moon. Oh, and if Adonizedek can have this same name and title, and clearly is NOT Christ, it clearly means that the person's name is just a clue to their role, not some kind of absolute proof. The context, and what is written by divinely inspired commentators like Paul (or, "the author of the book of Hebrews") has far more sway in the proper interpretation of these passages.

This is one of those "how big is your God?" kind of questions. In the first verse of Genesis God created (bara, cause to exist) about 10^80 atoms. There are jewish commentaries that describe Him as speaking them into existence, presciently describing John 1:3- ...and without (the Word) was not any thing made that was made. If you can get your head around that, the rest is trivial. If your God is smaller than that, may I suggest an upgrade?

Just the first half-dozen online LXX translations I find with google. They all say the same thing: http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm : "27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation." and here's two from two different greek sources, from http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/40-daniel-nets.pdf : "And in half of the week the sacrifice and the libation will cease, and in the temple there will be an abomination of desolations until the consummation of a season, and a consummation will be given for the desolation.” " "And itd will strengthen a covenant with many, one week, and by half of the week sacrifice and libation will cease, and in the temple there will be an abomination of desolations even until a consummation, and a consummation will be given for the desolation.” (dAntecedent unclear )

Let's be careful to keep the (idolatrous) wife of Jehovah separate from the (virgin) bride of Christ! Not the same gal...

I think this passage in Job is an appropriate rebuttal to those who claim to have been through death and returned: [Job 38:2 KJV] Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? [Job 38:17 KJV] Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? The only way to understand death's mysteries is through the One who conquered death. I'll take His word for it, and what is revealed by the apostles, but I have zero trust in the various visions people describe. [Rom 10:17 KJV] So then faith [cometh] by hearing [NOT SEEING!], and hearing by the word of God. When we rely on our eyes and our experiences, we get in trouble.

Yowza. I'd be pretty careful about re-writing the dozens of translations out there based on a clearly limited understanding of Hebrew syntax. Even the LXX (as translated by pre-Christian jews, presumably without any of our eschatological bias) says the sacrifices are stopped, not the week. So the Bible says 1260 days is 42 months is 3.5 years, but you'd like to use the civil calendar instead. The Bible says the commandment relates to the rebuilding of the wall and moat (which entails the authority to become a city-state), but you say we should use the one that relates to the temple in Ezra. As David was anointed king many years before he became king, so Jesus was anointed (thousands of) years before He will sit on His throne. John the Baptist recognized Him as the (pecach) lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. He certainly did nothing to fulfill His role as Messiah the King in Luke 4- indeed they tried to kill Him later in that address. And His "my hour is not yet come" statements after these two events indicate He was reserving the announcement for a particular moment. Indeed, as the Pharisees rebuke Him for the (apparent) blasphemy of the people as He enters the city: [Luk 19:41-44 KJV] And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. I take this to mean that Jesus held them accountable to have read and understood Dan 9.

Let's look at the word "abomination" from Dan 9, 11, 12 that Jesus is referring to. It is shiqquwts, "detestable thing or idol, abominable thing, abomination, idol, detested thing" shiqquwts shows up 28 times in the OT. Can you find any instance where it is used in a way that remotely includes a foreign army? -it is always used of idolatry or idolatrous worship: [Deu 29:17 KJV] And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which [were] among them:) [1Ki 11:5 KJV] For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. [1Ki 11:7 KJV] Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that [is] before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. [2Ki 23:13 KJV] And the high places that [were] before Jerusalem, which [were] on the right hand of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had builded for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Zidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of the Moabites, and for Milcom the abomination of the children of Ammon, did the king defile. [2Ki 23:24 KJV] Moreover the [workers with] familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD. [2Ch 15:8 KJV] And when Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominable idols out of all the land of Judah and Benjamin, and out of the cities which he had taken from mount Ephraim, and renewed the altar of the LORD, that [was] before the porch of the LORD. [isa 66:3 KJV] He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. [Jer 4:1 KJV] If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. [Jer 7:30 KJV] For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. [Jer 13:27 KJV] I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, [and] thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when [shall it] once [be]? [Jer 16:18 KJV] And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things. [Jer 32:34 KJV] But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it. [Eze 5:11 KJV] Wherefore, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish [thee]; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity. [Eze 7:20 KJV] As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty: but they made the images of their abominations [and] of their detestable things therein: therefore have I set it far from them. [Eze 11:18 KJV] And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. [Eze 11:21 KJV] But [as for them] whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD. [Eze 20:7 KJV] Then said I unto them, Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God. [Eze 20:8 KJV] But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt. [Eze 20:30 KJV] Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations? [Eze 37:23 KJV] Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. [Dan 9:27 KJV] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [Dan 11:31 KJV] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. [Dan 12:11 KJV] And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days. [Hos 9:10 KJV] I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: [but] they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto [that] shame; and [their] abominations were according as they loved. [Nah 3:6 KJV] And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock. [Zec 9:7 KJV] And I will take away his blood out of his mouth, and his abominations from between his teeth: but he that remaineth, even he, [shall be] for our God, and he shall be as a governor in Judah, and Ekron as a Jebusite. There is another word sometimes translated as "abomination", tow'ebah, a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable: a) in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages) b) in ethical sense (of wickedness etc). This word is used more generally, such as the Levitical practices or foods they were to avoid, and could include something like the Roman army, but it isn't the word used here. ​The preterist view tries to say that the Romans placed an idol in the temple and thus fulfilled the prophecy, but that doesn't fit the facts. The temple burned during the taking of Jerusalem so the Romans were left with a salvage job to extract the melted gold. There simply wasn't opportunity to set up the false worship that Jesus is describing.

At the end of Gen 3 is: 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. Cherubim or a sort of super angels, always associated with the presence of God (over the ark, the four living creatures of Isa 6 and Rev 4). Lucifer was the anointed cherub that covered (was over). The cherubim at the garden guard the way TO the tree. In warfare, you often match the enemy's weaponry with your own. Tanks to fight tanks, soldiers against soldiers, planes against planes, etc. It makes no sense to send a super angel(s) to keep man out. One "rank and file" angel would be enough. They are there to keep Lucifer out, and guard the way for man, when he has been finally redeemed, to return to it.

You stop your quote (at least) one verse short: 33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? -and next He describes how they shall (future) murder those He sends, just like their fathers did. This passages echoes the rather frisky description of parentage in John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. To call a Pharisee a seed of a serpent or generation of vipers is to refer to Gen 3: 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. So parentage in these verses is talking about allegiance or spiritual parentage, the master you serve.

Here's Dan 2:44,45 which I think is the passage you are referring to: [Dan 2:44,45 NKJV] And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure. Where Daniel is interpreting this part of the dream: [Dan 2:34,35 NKJV] You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. So the "God of heaven" is the stone cut without hands, which is Jesus Christ. Where is the clue that the "God of heaven"title relates to Israel's future ruling over nations? Indeed, this passage falls in the aramaic-language, gentile-centric portion of the book of Daniel. The title appears to simply be used to distinguish between Daniel's God and Neb's gods. In chapter 2 Daniel also uses "the Most High", "God of my fathers", "the great God". A bunch of titles of God, simply meant to distinguish Him from the gods Neb would have been familiar with. I fully agree that Israel has a future prophetic role and destiny to fulfill her promises and calling, but it sounds like you are reading into the text in this case. We should squeeze the text for every last nugget, but in doing so it's easy to get into left field as we look through the lenses of our own presumptions. I certainly can't claim to be free of that problem!

The bolded part above is not in the Bible, not in any translation. Poor form. The decree by Artaxerxes that fits the prophecy is the one from Nehemiah, in 445BC. (The 3 earlier Ezra decrees relate to the temple, not the city with wall and moat). The years are 360 day years (half of these seven years is 1260 days). ...until Messiah, v25. What was the first occasion when Christ allowed Himself to be presented as Messiah, even pre-arranging the donkey and foal with the innkeeper? -Palm Sunday. Every earlier occasion, when the crowd got excited He would say "my hour is not yet come" or slip through the crowd to escape, or tell those receiving miracles to tell no one. He was reserving the public announcement of his role as Messiah until a particular day, which happened to be 483x360=173,880 days from the going forth of the decree, above. (This is Sir Robert Anderson's analysis, which has its detractors but I think still holds up). v26: "and after 62 weeks (verse 25) (a bunch of stuff happens)". It should be noted that v26 comes between v25 and 27. This is oddly missed by many commentators. Verse 26 describes the interval between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week.** Then verse 27 deals with the 70th week, and Rev 6-19 is basically an expansion of Dan 9:27. ------------ **This is one of the incidences of the "church gap" that shows up throughout scripture. The classic example is comparing Luke 4:17-19 with the passage Jesus quotes from in Isa 61:1,2 where Jesus stops his quote at the comma in the middle of Isa 61:2, closes the book, and leaves unsaid "and the day of vengeance..." That "comma" has lasted almost 2000 years.

The text doesn't require that Melchizedek was Christ (but doesn't exclude the possibility, either). The last verse quoted above is saying he has no *recorded* father or mother or genealogy in the scripture, and the author of Hebrews is using that omission to reinforce the model of Melchizedek as a type of Christ.

If you're getting away with sin, then you have a bigger problem: Hebrews 12:5-8 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Is the God of heaven somehow different than God? More importantly, in every gospel passage that uses Kingdom of heaven versus kingdom of God there is no meaningful distinction- the terms are used interchangeably. Gospel writers even use both terms in the same parable (Mat 19:23,24), or different writers use different terms when recounting the same passage (compare Matthew versus Luke with the beatitudes, the verse in question here- Mat 11:11 vs. Luke 7:28, and so on) I believe you are creating a distinction that doesn't exist, and using that to read a different meaning into Mat 11:11 than exists in the text. "The kingdom" certainly applies to the millennium, but it also applies to our present citizenship. We, today, are citizens of heaven: [Phl 3:20 NKJV] For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, I'm probably not as interested as I should be in the semantics of whether Christ rules from David's throne over Israel, through Israel, or with Israel; nor whether the church is ruling with Christ on earth or heaven or old earth or new earth; or new, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven. Just that Christ rules, from David's throne, Israel still has a part in God's plan, and I am a citizen of heaven today and forever.

Do you see a (meaningful) distinction between kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven? They are both used interchangeably for "the saved", both OT saved (Mat 8:11, but with "shall be" making it yet future when it was spoken) and more generally referring to (future) NT saved. The natural reading of Mat 11:11 puts a contrast between OT and NT saints though, so it should be placed in company with the dozens of other verses that use kingdom of heaven/God as a reference to the Church or body of Christ. To give this one verse a special meaning in contrast to well established usage doesn't make sense. Is the millennium in view in any other kingdom of heaven reference? I looked at the 80+ gospel usages, and none appeared millennial to me...

Hmm. You're saying the last oven is almost a million times hotter than first?

Faith..... From the beginning of creation to the renewal of creation God aways ask the same... do you believe me? Seeing and believing is how much greater than believing without seeing? Matthew 11:11 again: (KJV) 11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. I don't think faith is it. The first half of Mat 11:11 says John the Baptist was no less than the OT heroes, who were examples of salvation by faith (see Heb 11 for a list). And, Jesus says it's better to believe without seeing: 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

It's interesting to look at the world as a huge display of God's love. The only true "everlasting covenant" is between the Father and Son, an agreement made before the foundation of the earth, to create a race of people with free will that couldn't possibly live up to His infinite righteousness, and therefore would need the Son's infinite sacrifice to redeem. It's sort of God's way of saying, "Love? I'll show you love. Watch this..." A common misconception is that man screwed up the plan and God had to send His Son to "fix" it. God knew we'd be sinners before He made the world, before He died on the cross, and before each of us was born.

The "candlestick" is not the Holy Spirit, see chapter 1. The Laodicean church already lacks white raiment (Christ's imputed righteousness). Jesus is already outside the door of the Laodicean church. [Rev 3:20 KJV] "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." And here's the goad you're kicking against, just to be more clear: [Jhn 14:16,17 KJV] "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Falling away from correct doctrine may mean that you shun the Holy Spirit, but from Jesus' own mouth comes the promise that the Holy Spirit will never leave you. If you want to alter the meaning of that clear statement, do your best. The virgins are not the bride. Read the context of the passages you quote to see what is being discussed. Dumping a bunch of nonsense-filled screen inches on these forums drastically lowers the value of these forums.

John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. Matthew 12:43-45King James Version (KJV) 43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Are you saying once saved always saved ? thanks Are you saying those verses have anything to do with the HS or salvation??? --Who said "I am the light"? (Hint: He also said, mirroring your John 12 verse: "...It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.") --Is the unclean spirit the same as the Holy Spirit???? Do you have any point at all??? OSAS is a loaded topic that doesn't need to be decided for the OP's question. A safe answer is simply "we are absolutely secure as long as we abide in Christ".

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. "Dwelling" is a heavily loaded word in scripture. From Abraham who was in sin as he dwelt in Haran and later in faith he dwelt in tents, to Paul describing our citizenship as being in heaven, to Revelation that describes "those who dwell on the earth"; each case isn't describing one's physical address as much as it describes a mindset or allegiance or belief. Just as we are not to be citizens of this world, we are to tabernacle (tent, camp) here, while recognizing our citizenship in heaven as our permanent dwelling, so also the HS promises to remain (dwell) in you. Understanding the significance and permanence of "dwelling" is one of the things that makes the middle of Rom 8 so powerful: 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

v13 points to the answer, or as Luke phrases it, "the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist". Under the OT structure, the Spirit was active, but His presence was conditional and temporary. David could say "take not thy Holy Spirit from me" but since Christ that isn't something we can validly say. The Spirit "indwelling" (making His home within you) and never leaving is a concept utterly foreign to OT minds.

If, as a nonbeliever, you were judged by your works, how would you do? -if judged by biblical standards, you'd obviously fail (all have sinned and fallen short, etc) -I suggest, even if judged by your own standards, whatever they may be, you will still fall short. By the most lenient standard you can devise, man is without excuse if he denies the free gift of Christ's redemption. Tangentially, this is the point of the final Gog/Magog battle- that even after a thousand years without satan's influence, men will still have a sin nature, and will still choose to follow a leader and rebel against God.