Last Daze

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate? I missed it. I guarantee it is settled in heaven! The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth. LAMAD Where in the Bible does it say that? I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God. Of course it is not equal to the written word. But when personal testimony AGREES with the Word, we should accept it. Did you not see that some of what Paul wrote as personal testimony that has now become a part of the written word? I am not speaking of one or two examples: there are MANY that all agree. Finally, did you not read that theives will not make it to heaven? Paul gave us a list and that was included. If someone is a thief, and belives that is a small sin that does not need to be confessed - they do not qualify for heaven. It is plain and simple. LAMAD Sounds more like the personal testimony agrees with your interpretation of the Word. Paul's testimony is in the Bible. The others you refer to are not. Big difference. Concerning my reading about thieves, have you ever heard of "setting up the straw man"? Its a logical fallacy where someone tries to bolster their position by presenting an argument that is generally true but irrelevant. That's what you've done. The fact that stealing is a sin, and that thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God is true but completely irrelevant to the idea of extra-Biblical testimony being used to interpret God's word.

I've always wondered why this is an issue. Is it an effort to establish a "baseline" of sin that we can "get away with" and still be saved? Or a means to control people through fear? Why not teach people to learn and do the will of God? Then it becomes much less of an issue, if any issue at all.

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate? I missed it. I guarantee it is settled in heaven! The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth. LAMAD Where in the Bible does it say that? I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God.

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate? I missed it.

The only "tie-in" that I see between the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay is the evil angel that grants them a position of dominion. The great statue in Daniel 2 uses five distinct materials to describe four kingdoms. In Daniel 7 there are four beasts to describe the same four kingdoms. Daniel 7 is more from the "evil angel" perspective (behind the scenes) and the great statue is more from a natural perspective (what we can see). When John wrote Revelation, Rome "was" but the evil angel behind Rome "was not" (he had been cast into the abyss). I see the feet of iron and clay describing a multi-national type government where the evil angel (beast from the sea) is the ruler, an 8th king, and he is of the 7 (working through the false prophet who is the 7th). LAST DAZE. The 8th beast was and is not;yet is. Was=he really was: which was a one world system and religion, and a one preople and one leader. That beast was called BABEL, the kingdom of Nimrod. Is not = He is no more in the days of Johns. And yet is = He is not dead. Satan has not given up that idea,in his head. And will come out of the bott.pit = the nwo is an idea,and that idea will come out of the bott.pit. Bottomless pit = Satans brain child. jesse. Time will tell.

The only "tie-in" that I see between the legs of iron and the feet of iron and clay is the evil angel that grants them a position of dominion. The great statue in Daniel 2 uses five distinct materials to describe four kingdoms. In Daniel 7 there are four beasts to describe the same four kingdoms. Daniel 7 is more from the "evil angel" perspective (behind the scenes) and the great statue is more from a natural perspective (what we can see). When John wrote Revelation, Rome "was" but the evil angel behind Rome "was not" (he had been cast into the abyss). I see the feet of iron and clay describing a multi-national type government where the evil angel (beast from the sea) is the ruler, an 8th king, and he is of the 7 (working through the false prophet who is the 7th).

Probably so, but it seems that that type of worship would be hard to detect and enforce the "or die" clause. I think you need to visit Muslim controlled countries and rethink that. I was thinking on a global scale, in the short time frame of the end times. but remember that most people are going to think the beast is the best thing since sliced bread, and they will rat you out or kill you themselves. That's very true. Given the way that Muslims are infiltrating virtually every country on the planet and their propensity for beheadings, and hatred for Christians, I think I know who the axemen will be. I still think that technology will be used to spot people who don't emit the expected electronic signal in order to expedite the "cleansing".

I agree that the logistics of such an undertaking is enormous. I think that the 10 leaders were planning on ruling much longer than one hour and that they will have made all the preparations, logistically speaking, for the implementation of the mark. The false prophet (antichrist) hijacks their system and after subduing their rebellion, begins implementing the mark...as I see it.

Probably so, but it seems that that type of worship would be hard to detect and enforce the "or die" clause. I think you need to visit Muslim controlled countries and rethink that. I was thinking on a global scale, in the short time frame of the end times.

Probably so, but it seems that that type of worship would be hard to detect and enforce the "or die" clause.

'Accountability' is the key. Our Lord Jesus said all manner of sin can be forgiven man, except the unpardonable sin against The Holy Spirit, which I believe during the tribulation when the 'mark' is instituted will only apply to one of His elect falling away. If one sins in ignorance that is a different situation of accountability to God. In the case of the 'mark' when the Pseudo-Christ comes, brethren that do that in ignorance is different than brethren not in ignorance that know better, but accept it anyway (like a chosen elect). Per the end of Rev.13, a requirement of taking the 'mark' associates agreement to bow in false worship. It's shown as a choice. Since the devil is after our souls especially, it wouldn't mean the same thing if it was forced upon one who refused the false worship, which is why it says those who refuse are to be killed. For those in Christ who are given from God to know the coming Pseudo-Christ will play our Lord Jesus, knowing the difference between the false coming and our Lord Jesus true coming later, if they accept the mark they will have committed the unpardonable sin against The Holy Spirit. They will be held fully accountable, because they were given to 'know', and will not be able to claim ignorance when Jesus comes. But a brother who doesn't know that difference, and thus becomes deceived, will think that coming Pseudo-Christ will be whom? They will believe that truly is... our Lord Jesus, so they will not even consider that they are bowing in false worship to another. This is why it is so important to understand per God's Word what kind of Antichrist is coming to sit the temple of God in Jerusalem for the last days, exalting himself as God. Per God's Word it is going to be a fake Christ, and a very believable fake one at that, not some pope or religious fanatic like those of past history that only claimed to be Jesus Christ. This is why those who look for some leader rising from among Islam, or New York, or any other faction except one that would fit our Lord Jesus, are way off the track of God's Word on this matter. Interesting perspective. Would it be fair to summarize your reply as: those who receive the mark with the full knowledge of what it is will not be able to repent but those who receive it in ignorance will be able to?

What if it were a statue image of what brethren think our Lord Jesus looks like??? Afterall, our Lord Jesus was specific in Matt.24:23-26 that the coming Antichrist will come to play Him, and if possible that pseudo-Christ would deceive even His very elect (KJV "false Christs" = Greek pseudochristos, from two Greek words, pseudo and Christos. Those verses are in the singular tense per their context.) Okay, so if there is some physical statue image, how does everyone in the world worship it? I'm presuming that if it were a statue that it would be located in Jerusalem. The way I read it, there's only one image. How do the people of the world make it, that one image? Those characteristics keep me from thinking that its a physical statue, unless maybe it's accompanied by a code of laws as mentioned in the OP. I'm not discounting the possibility of a physical statue but I can't see that its only a statue.

I know we're not given a lot of info on the 144,000 but what do you see as their purpose? Hi Last Daze I see two groups. 1. The masses that came out of tribulation and washed their robes white in the blood of the lamb. Mind you their robes are only cleansed after they are persecuted. They chose Christ in the end and prepared to die for his sake. 2. The small group, the 144,000 who followed the lamb whereever he went. This means they are not luke-warm, but must be true followers existing at the end times. Whether Jew or gentile, they are Christ's. I believe they already washed their robe white during their life, and not just "at the end" They are called the "first-fruits". So they must be the "first" of something. Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. They are there with Christ, but where are the masses that were mentioned? Not there yet as it appears. They must be taken up first, just before the others. I don't think these ones will be killed during the tribulation, but spared somehow, like it was during the passover in Egypt when the angels were not allowed to harm those who had the mark on their door. Same type of thing, as they are sealed and protected, and there is only a small number. Revelation 7:1-8 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed. Revelation14:1-5 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God. I've always been curious about this phrase: These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. I can't imagine that this is talking about sex since in a marriage relationship its not defiling. Maybe a spiritual application?

Hi Last Daze. I think it means that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord - before the trumpets blow, and have the knowledge to refuse the mark of the beast will be spared from the wrath of God. After that it will be too late. Many will realise they have made a mistake for taking the mark of the beast, but that mark on them shows who they chose to serve. Once it's there, cannot change it. Can remove the mark if you wish, but your name is still listed as being the property of the Beast. They already traded their inheritance for a bowl of soup. Hi Sister, I'm not sure how you see the seals unfolding. I think the mark is given during the fifth seal, after the warfare of the first four seals. This is when the worship or die ultimatum is given and believers are martyred. Then the sixth seal coincides with the above quoted passage, then the seventh seal with God's judgment (trumpets/vials). Are you saying that up until the sixth seal that those who have received the mark can repent but once the trumpets blow, the option is off the table?

The NASB uses "and" not "or". If it were "or" there would be no question. That's just why it seems odd to me.

Absolutely not, it just seemed strange the way it was worded, that "received the mark" and "worship the image" were always together...like it took both. Just soliciting feedback.

Can you elaborate? sure thing. Rev. 13:15... and he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast would both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should not be killed. ok first off the book of daniel is the go to source for an idea of what it will be like. Nebuchadnezzar was after all the king of babylon. King nebuchadnezzar decreed that all who do not fall down and worship the edifus when the music plays they got killed. Very similar to the above scripture. It says also that he gave life unto the image of the beast that it should speak. If we take a gander at the word life we see it literaly means "breath." This also means at one point the image didnt speak. What dont normaly speak that would decieve the masses if all of the sudden it could speak?.... a statue. I read a post by another forum member that said it could be a hologram, not to call that forum member out and say they are wrong, but lets also keep in mind that the beast will be doing miracles and this will be done by the power of darkness, not computerized software/hardware. This is going to be the ultimate spiritual battle on earth and the only hope one has of not being decieved by darkness is if they are covered in The Blood of The Lamb. Also everywhere else in The Book when it says image it means a stock or stone, a little idol, or in the case of the book of Daniel, a really big statue. *** fixed *** How do those who dwell on the earth make it, and if its a fallen angel, what do they make it to look like? Thoughts?

I'd like some thoughts on this question. My initial thought is 'no'. Don't get me wrong, I have no intention of flirting with disaster, just want to make sense of some things. Where it speaks of judgment being carried out it always says it like this: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand..." . If the mark alone was enough to "send someone to hell" then why add the worship clause? Using the "and" conjunction indicates that both must be in play. I see "receiving the mark" as the first act of worship which is followed by continued worship (complying with the mandates of the image). Can someone realize at some point, say when things really go south, that they've made a bad decision and repent. I think so, but I'm not sure. I think it might part of what the 144,000 do, bear witness and call to repentance. Also, I think the decision to receive the mark or not will be made by everyone in just a couple months or so. Why not just kill them all then? I think the reason is that the judgments of the seventh seal gets progressively worse to try and convince people of their bad decision. The great majority, though, will not see through the deception and will remain stiff-necked in their rebellion. But might some repent as a result? Maybe, but very, very few, kind of like God's searching for that last gold coin or two. Another reason why I think you will be able to repent after receiving the mark is in Acts 2: "And I will grant wonders in the sky above And signs on the earth below, Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood, Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." I don't see any exception for those who have received the mark in there. Again, the vast majority won't repent, but why make that statement if it weren't possible? Thoughts?

I'm curious as to what you think about the mark, whether receiving it seals one's fate with no possibility of repentance. I'm of the persuasion that receiving the mark is an act, the initial act, of pseudo-Christ worship but that someone can realize that they made an error, repent, and discontinue worshiping him. Granted, the vast majority will be blinded by the delusion. I was dogpiled in a different forum for suggesting the possibility of someone repenting after receiving the mark. Thoughts? Edit: after I posted this, I got to thinking that this should probably be a thread of its own. I'll start one shortly.

I know we're not given a lot of info on the 144,000 but what do you see as their purpose?

That could be. The thing that keeps me from seeing it as a tangible thing is that those who dwell on the earth make it. It seems more like a collective effort thing that everyone has a hand in making.

Can you elaborate?

Not sure if that's directed at me but I think Rev 17:18 is related to Rev 17:15 describing where the harlot sits. A description, IMO, that fits NYC. I don't see it as related to the image.

I've been thinking lately about what the image of the beast might be. I think its an important subject because believers are going to give up their lives rather than worship it. I'm using the premise that the beast that comes out of the sea in Revelation 13 is a fallen angel who oversees the final world power based on Daniel 10 and the fact that he comes up out of the abyss. Its an important characterization to make since the image is a likeness of this beast. The verses that describe the image of the beast: And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. And he performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And there was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast might even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. Revelation 13:11-15 From this passage we know the following characteristics of the image of the beast: The image is of the beast that was wounded and came back to life. This is the beast with seven heads and ten horns. The beast with two horns initiates it. Those that dwell on the earth make it. Breath is given to the image by the beast with two horns. The image speaks and causes those who do not worship it to die. Working with the premise that the seven-headed, ten-horned beast is an evil angel and is causing this final kingdom to exercise dominion, an image or likeness of this beast would reflect that dominion. There is only one image and the people of the earth make it. Because of that description, I don't see it as being a statue or anything physical. The only thing that I've been able to come up with that fits is that the image is a code of laws that the people collaborate on that expresses the authority of the false prophet (antichrist) and allegiance to him. He gives breath to this image by enacting it as law. Part of this law will likely have the ultimatum of "worship or die" in it. People demonstrate their worship, that they've bought into his claim as god, by receiving the mark. With the mark presumably being detectable electronically, the image can "speak" through technology identifying who has the mark and who doesn't, kind of the ultimate worldwide surveillance. I'm interested in other viewpoints on this topic. I consider it to be one of the most important concepts to contemplate. In offering another perspective, please address all five characteristics of the image listed above.

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author. "Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials. Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation. LAMAD I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up. In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." The sixth seal is described: I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Looks like a match to me. What LOOKS like a match may not BE a match, and it this case certainly is not. The signs in the sun and moon are to be seen TWICE: once at the 6th seal as the fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy, and again just before Jesus returns on the white horse, as the fulfillment of the Joel 3 prophecy. If you read more closely, you will see they are DIFFERENT and cannot be the same. If you study Joel, he shows us BOTH signs. They will be over 7 years apart. This is one big error on the part of Van Kampen and Rosenthal, the originators of the prewrath theory; neither recogized that these signs in the sun and moon would happen twice, so in their theories they had to completely rearrange Revelation. LAMAD What about the stars falling from the sky? You forgot that one. How many times does that happen? No, I did not forget. In 1833 the sky was lit up with "falling stars." It was so bright at night one could read with all the falling meteorites. Yet, today we certainly still see stars. Stars can represent churches. Stars can represent angels or fallen angels. And stars can be falling meteorites. In Rev. 6 "the stars of heaven fell to the earth" yet in Rev. 8 a third of the stars were darkened. Therefore we can be sure that in Rev 6 real stars did not fall and disappear. The truth is, these signs in the sun and moon happen twice. When one understands this truth, they find Revelation is in perfect order and nothing has to be rearranged to fit a theory. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong. LAMAD Time will tell. You're entitled to your interpretation. Just don't worship the false prophet (antichrist). We can compare notes in heaven, but I'm guessing it won't be a big deal then.