Watching for Jesus

Revelation 9:5. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. Revelation 9:10. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. I believe the 5 months of torment (in those days) does not occur between the 5th and 6th trumpets, but after all the trumpets and vials are fulfilled. Do you agree that the events of Revelation, Chapter 19 occur after the 7th vial? Jeff

Hi Last Daze, I believe that when the 7th trumpet sounds on the day of the Lord, we are gathered to Jesus in the clouds. Then as the 7th vial is poured out, Jesus goes down to the earth and slaughters the tares in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (the wrath of the Lamb) and fights the Battle for Jerusalem (the Battle of Armageddon). After the Battle for Jerusalem is over, Jesus takes His bride-to-be back to heaven for the marriage of the Lamb, which will take place 5 months after the day of the Lord ends. The 5 month period of torment will follow the day of the Lord (one 24 hour day). The remnant left from the day of the Lord will feel the effects of God's wrath for 5 months. The events of Revelation, Chapter 19 occur after the 7th vial has been poured out, after Babylon has been judged. The return on the white horses is not on the day of the Lord but 5 months later, on the last day of Daniel's 70th week. When He returns on the white horses, He will set up His kingdom for 1,000 years. Jesus' vesture is dipped in blood when He returns. His clothes will be stained on the day of the Lord, when He slaughters the tares. Revelation 19:13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. He will slay the remnant (those left alive from the day of the Lord) when He returns. Revelation 19: 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Jeff

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I believe that the following scriptures show the same event; the same thrones and a judgment. Daniel 7:9. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Revelation 20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Does everyone agree that these verses show the same event or are there other opinions on this. Jeff

Hi firestormx, I believe that Jesus will come on the day of the Lord (one 24 hour day) and gather His elect (the believers in Christ) when the 7th trumpet sounds. The 7th vial will then be poured out and the wicked will be gathered to be slaughtered in the Valley of Jehoshaphat; concurrent with the Battle of Armageddon. This is the second coming of Christ. The following verses all show the same event. Joel 3:11. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord. 12. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. Revelation 14:14. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Matthew 24:29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Revelation 16:15. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Revelation 6:14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Matthew 13:30. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 25:31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Jeff

I do not believe that any of the 7 seals have been opened yet. Jeff

I believe one reason has to do with the harvest. When wheat is harvested, it is winnowed (tossed into the air) to separate the wheat from the chaff. I see the same thing when the believers are caught up and the tares are left to be burned. Jeff

What does that have to do with the MOB ? Hi bopeep, Nothing. I was responding to post number 3. I edited my post to give my opinion of the mark. Jeff

I believe the 144,000 are Jewish men. They will be protected by God in the wilderness along with the rest of the Jewish people for the 1,260 days period. They will be sealed on the day of the Lord; which is the last day of the 1,260 days period. They are sealed because they are the firstfruits of the harvest. After the harvest; they will help Jesus when He comes down to fight for Jerusalem (Zechariah, Chapter 12). As for the mark of the beast; I don't think we will know what it is until after the antichrist comes and sets up the abomination of desolation; and the false prophet makes the image of the beast. I believe these events are close to the end of the 1,260 days period. Jeff

I believe the two witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah; both have not died and: Hebrews 9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: I believe the 1,260 days that they will prohesy is the same 42 months that the war with the saints will happen, as well as the 1,260 days that the woman (I believe to be Israel) will flee into the wilderness and be protected by God; and the same 42 months that Jerusalem is trodden down by the Gentiles. I believe God's wrath will be poured out on the day of the Lord; which will be the last day of the 1,260 days period; the 1,260th day. Jeff

Daniel 10:13. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:20. Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. I agree with you SINNERSAVED, Michael is the restrainer. Michael is the one who helps to hold back in these things (the powers of darkness). Jeff

I agree that we will be gathered on the day of the Lord. I do not think that anyone can say for certain when the first four seals have been or will be opened. I do believe the 5th seal will be opened during the 42 month war with the saints and that the 6th seal will be opened just before the day of the Lord begins. Jeff

Let me see if I've got this straight....you have a theory but will only reveal what that might be if it comes to pass in 2016? Hi MorningGlory, No, I have been showing my theory (mostly my timeline) on this forum. I have posted several topics in eschatology and prophecy as well as replies on other's topics.. I have contacted several members by private message also.

Hi inchrist, You said: Neither one of the pretribs or your prewraths or post tribs are completely 100% correct....All three popular views are flawed yet all three views have some essence of truth in them....should we not profit more by looking to harmonise all three views? Why must we accept those popular views are our only options to choose from? I agree that the three most popular theories are not correct. I just wanted you to know that I have formed another theory that is very different from the others. I came to this forum to try to show it to others, but I realize now that I will not be able to convince anyone at this time. I believe that it was shown to me by the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you Littlelamb. Jeff

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Note that the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ, who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Hi Bible2, You say the resurrection and the rapture will occur just before the judgment and the marriage of the Lamb in the sky. Then, Jesus and those who were gathered will descend to the earth on the white horses to fight the Battle of Armageddon. The problem is that In Revelation, Chapters 19 and 20, the order of the events is as follows: the marriage of the Lamb; Jesus descends on the white horses; then after the marriage of the lamb; the thrones are set up for the judgment and the first resurrection takes place. Jeff

Hi Riverwalker, I agree with you that the rapture is the gathering of the believers to Christ, at some point in time, and that the return of Jesus on the white horses will be to start His 1,000 year reign. I also agree that we will not get our glorified bodies at the rapture, but at the resurrection. I believe we will get a spiritual body at the rapture. Does that mean you are saying that the rapture is not a resurrection? Or do you believe the rapture is one part (or stage) of the first resurrection, as some say? Jeff

Hi watching, Myself .. I see the first resurrection which takes place at the second coming as the "rapture". Blessings. Hi Serving. Do you see the second coming occurring before the marriage of the Lamb or after? Or simultaneous? Jeff

We need to view the first resurrection as the term which applies to the righteous dead. The second resurrection applies to the unrighteous dead. The first resurrection is similar to a Jewish harvest with (1) the firstfruits, (2) the harvest and (3) the gleanings. Christ is the firstfruits, the saints at the Rapture are the main harvest, and the Tribulation saints are the gleanings (1 Cor 15:23,24). The Rapture is distinct from the Second Coming of Christ. At the Rapture He comes FOR His saints, but at His Second Coming Christ comes WITH His saints (Jude 14,15): And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Hi Ezra, So, do you believe (as I do) that the rapture takes place first (before the marriage of the Lamb), and that the first resurrection takes place at a later time (after the marriage of the Lamb)? Jeff

I'll give it one more try Serving. Like Marilyn, I am eager to hear what you have to show us. The prophecies are: 1. out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel 2. Therefore will he give them up 3, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth 4, then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. The mysteries are: 1. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah 2. whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting Jeff

I would like to hear opinions on the following question. Are the rapture and the first resurrection the same event or two separate events separated by a period of time? Jeff

Hi Ezra, To me, Daniel 12:11 is saying that from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days; 1,290 days betweeen the two events. Otherwise, why are the 1,290 days mentioned? The verse would simply have stated that from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation set up, there shall be 1,335 days. Daniel 9:27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. I do not believe that the "midst of the week" has to be the exact middle. The overspreading of abominations is for the next 1,290 days. I believe the catching up of the 144,000 will happen concurrent with the rapture. The 144,000 are the first fruits of the harvest. The dead in Christ are the main harvest and those who are alive and remain (Christians) will be the gleanings. The believers (dead and alive) are the wheat. The wicked and those attacking Israel are the tares. Jeff

I believe the rapture will happen when the 7th trumpet sounds on the day of the Lord (one 24 hour day). This will be the Second Coming of Christ. Jeff