Diaste

Hmmm. Paul was writing letters from the foundation of known scripture. He was without doubt conveying scriptural truth and instructions from existing scripture, learning from the Apostles, and what he may have been told at the meeting on the road to Damascus. In my opinion what Peter is referring to is Paul's command and understanding of the scriptural truths Paul took from scripture and expounded upon. So Peter's reference here to the 'rest of the scriptures' is in light of the scriptures from which Paul was teaching, not that Paul was in the process of writing scripture in his letters. Jesus for example quoted OT facts again and again. When Jesus needed proof for others He quoted the only known scriptures at the time. So how do we define 'scripture'? Prophecy, for certain. When the text says, "The Word of the Lord came to me and said..." obviously. When the text tells us God spoke or commanded others to speak. Jesus' words. I don't see Paul's opinions as scripture.

Exactly. Since Paul was writing to Timothy, and others, would Paul have considered his letter to Timothy, and others, as scripture? I don't think so. We consider it as part of the canon now but certainly Paul wasn't equating his letters with holy writ. So what was available and defined as scripture when Paul wrote that letter to Timothy? Prophetic utterance for certain, that's God breathed, men spoke as inspired by the Holy Spirit, and we have prophecy. Any time God spoke saying something like "Go and give this word to the people." must be scripture. Or when we see written, "The Word of the Lord came to me and said..."

What defines 'the scriptures'? "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness" What are these 'writings' and how do we know those particular writings are what is the 'all' that Paul tells Timothy is the guiding authority?

Some thoughts this morning... A few points about the 'Rapture': There is a rapture. It's called the gathering in scripture, or the 1st resurrection. The word 'rapture' appears no where in scripture. I think it's even worse than a misnomer. It's an event conjured from fantasy and fear, a deception of the enemy. That being said the 'rapture' will happen, but only after the great tribulation. No where do we see, in all of scripture, a vast throng numbering some 2 billion depicted in heaven and described as having been translated pre- anything. What we do see is a group resurrected and translated, having come out from within great tribulation, having overcome the trials, having overcome the beast, not worshipping the beast nor the image, nor receiving the mark and/or beheaded, and firmly holding to the testimony of Jesus Christ and of God the Father. We also do not see the supposed two billion pretrib raptured 'Christians' translated and installed as judges for 1000 years. We only see those who hold the testimony of Jesus Christ and the word of God, and who did not bend the knee to the beast, and lost their lives as defenders of the faith, as the ones resurrected, along with the translated living of the same attributes, at the 2nd coming and living and reigning with Jesus for 1000 years. This means that all the dead in Christ from the Ascension to the end of the 1000 years that did not come out of great tribulation, wait until the 2nd resurrection and the great white throne judgement after the millennium for their resurrection and appearance before the throne. Many think the appearance before the GWT is a summary judgement of rebellion and sin and death and a sentence of eternal hellfire in a burning lake. That is not the case. Paul says: "10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad." Paul is saying it is necessary to reveal in front of the tribunal both the good and the bad. Both are critical testimony, both for and against, good and bad, that all may see and understand; testifying to the mercy and justice of the Most High, in the power and authority of Jesus. I'm convinced many think appearing before the throne is an automatic eternal death sentence. It's not. It's a rendering of just judgement based on His mercies and the facts of truth. I guess if one is afraid of that it's time for personal reflection and a fresh, critical assessment of behaviors and attitudes. Blessings

I don't see how it's relevant what one believes concerning the facts of truth. It's like saying nothing at all. There are millions of temples built in God's name, all over the world. What makes a Jewish Temple built in God's name less legitimate than your small town corner Assembly of God, or any other building devoted to God? No one single building called a 'church' is a legitimate 'church'. They are all brick and mortar and glass and steel. God's church is a spiritual one, not one built of stone. The Church isn't the building, the Church is in the building. Well, optimistically anyway. The passage does not indicate it's a dwelling place of the Most High God. In any passage about the 3rd Temple we see it's a facade ostensibly dedicated to the Most High God but is in fact a set up, a trap to subjugate the Jews and usher in the reign of the one who blasphemes God and utters the self proclamation of god above all gods. Perhaps the Jews involved in the deception sincerely believe the 3rd Temple will be a legitimate Temple and the ritual and liturgy will be found acceptable in God's eyes, but that isn't the case. The 3rd Temple isn't about the worship of the Most High God, it's a ruse and show and the Jews will finally see how wrong they are, and how wrong they have been in past millennia.

Hardly unanswerable. Eze 38:20 "so that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at My presence; and the mountains shall be thrown down and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground." That would include the profaned 3rd Temple.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

What Israel are we taking about?

Of course!

What do you propose?

what birthday?

This is true. Uh huh. Why do you think that? No? Then why do we see this? "And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind." Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’ 30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, The above passage in Matt 24 is the return of Jesus. It's the same as what is seen in Rev 6 regarding the sun, moon and stars. So either Rev 6:12-13 and Matt 24:29-30 are the same event and have the same timing, the return of Jesus, or these are two separate unrelated events occurring what? Hundreds or thousands of years apart?\ Is there any evidence the one has occurred and Jesus did not return? Just because Rev 6:12-13 does not say "Jesus return at this time." it's abundantly clear Jesus is returning at the 6th seal as wrath is now imminent, everyone knows it, and everyone knows Jesus and God are bringing that wrath up front and personal to everyone on earth. It's even said the people can see the Lamb and God; “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Indeed. I agree with that idea. We already know what's going to happen at the 1st trump. It's hasn't happened, it is revealed what will happen when the time arrives.

Well, do we not read the seal is opened and then see the contents of what was previously hidden? I didn't say anything happened simultaneously, I said the opened seals have revealed the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The underlying idea of Revelation is all this will come to pass, and we are shown what it is that will comes to pass, when it all begins to come to pass. Like it's written right there in the text: Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, 3And when the Lamb opened the second seal, 5And when the Lamb opened the third seal, 7And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal, 9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, 12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal And: Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, 8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, 10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, 12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet John saw it all happening in the vision. It's not happening, it's been revealed this is what will happen through the opening of seals and the sounding of trumps. Like the 6th seal, we know what will happen what that time comes. The Seal locked up the revelation of the events, Jesus loosed the seal and showed us what was previously hidden.

Yes. Jesus returns when GT is determined to be over, before the end of the week, wrath then commences with the bounds of the last week, punishing the beast kingdom right to the end of the 70th week. When wrath falls the beast still has a kingdom: 10And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish 11and curse the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds. And the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East. 13And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. 14These are demonic spirits that perform signs and go out to all the kings of the earth, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. "Two things here; When wrath falls the fifth bowl is poured out on the kingdom of the beast. The beast still has influence over the earth here as well since at the point of 6th bowl the beast and the FP send out deceptive messages to all the kings of the earth, to gather for the final battle. Excellent insight. From our perspective as well, when it all begins to happen. It's a successive concurrence all culminating at the 7th seal, which is the end. Very good! Now. add into that the gathering of the saints at the 6th seal and the 7th trump, the last trump as spoken of by Paul. Nothing seems out of sequence or order to me. I'm just trying to discern the divine administration of the order.

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” From the above it looks as though the scroll is being opened throughout all the seals while in the throne room. Of course none of the events depicted by the opening of the seals is happening, it's a revealing, a revelation, of what will occur at the end of the age. I think what we see is order of events and the results when it all begins to take place. I don't think we are waiting for the scroll to be opened by the breaking of the seals at some future date; the scroll is opened, the seals loosed, the revelation given. I just use the nomenclature provided in the text as a marker for clarity. Clearly the 6th seal is opened after the 1st seal, so as a progression the events the 1st seal precedes the events of the 6th seal, so in that way Jesus does make His appearance at the opening of the 6th seal, it's an immutable imperative that will happen in the prescribed order, when it all begins to take place. 15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” The above is the 6th seal events. This is when Jesus appears and wrath begins, it is come, not ending.

If that's the case and you really conclude based on the evidence there is a pretrib rapture, then in my opinion all your interpretations of prophecy are suspect from the beginning. A pretrib rapture has no foundation of fact. All it's points are easily refuted with the very scriptures purported to be supporting evidence. We can get into it if you like, here: From a passage concerning the end of the age and the return of the Lord to rule the earth: " Therefore hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem. 15For you said, “We have made a covenant with death; we have fashioned an agreement with Sheol. When the overwhelming scourge passes through it will not touch us, because we have made lies our refuge and falsehoode our hiding place.” They will enter into an agreement knowing the outcome. This is related to the Dan 9:27 agreement. Do you have any evidence showing Netanyahu will never accept nor agree to any agreement with a 7 year duration? Is this a Jewish or Israeli law, policy, general sentiment or rule? It would seem to me no one knows the exact days. What if the witnesses show up three days after the beast take power? When does the beast take power? At the deadly head wound or at the A of D? And if he does take power at the A of D, is it that moment? Maybe he declares himself God the next day. I'm just saying we don't know the witnesses will be defeated at midday on day 1260, we only know their ministry is 1260 days, we have no evidence to confirm when that ministry begins. This isn't really known either, it's assumed mainly because it's tidy and orderly for the mind of man. The general idea is 'middle', not 'median'. And where does scripture give the day this begins? Does scripture say this begins at the midpoint? All we see is duration. We can speculates when it all begins, but we do not know. That information is not readily available. False. Jesus returns at the 6th seal.

Hello. Interesting. Maybe someone asks that question. Maybe it's answered in the text. I don't see anywhere in scripture where it's demonstrated the witnesses appear on the day the 70th week begins and killed at the exact midpoint. I agree the ministry of the witnesses is in the 1st half of the week, but I have no evidence of the exact days it begins and ends, only the duration, so far anyway. Doesn't this ignore the text? " 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them." What is stated in the text is the world has a wake, won't allow them to be buried, will gloat, celebrate and give gifts in joy these tormenters are dead. The the text says, "But after the three and a half days,", which I can only assume is the 3 1/2 days mentioned in v 9, the witnesses are brought back to life. It may be that the bodies of the witnesses laying in hot sun for three days is somehow symbolic, but I don't see a parallel to Ezekiel. One big difference is Ezekiel was alive, the witnesses are dead. Dan 9:27 literally says 7 years. Even says, 'midpoint'. The first several words in Dan 9:27 state the 'he' will confirm a covenant for one week or, 7 years. How is this not 7 years? It looks to me like you are entrenched in a 7 year time frame but also proposing that same time frame doesn't apply to the very covenant that's broken at the midpoint. If this covenant is supposed be 'lasting', how is there a midpoint 3 1/2 years after the confirmation? I don't see where scripture says Israel will sign, or agree to, or enter into, any new 7 year or even a 'lasting' peace agreement; scripture doesn't say this in any way. What scripture does say is some existing treaty will be 'strengthened with great strength'[confirmed] for a specific period. This isn't a new covenant, it's one already existing, which the 'he' will support for a time period of 'his' ability and willpower. Israel will accept this help as it will mean the Temple can be rebuilt while the 'he' protects the nation of Israel from invasion and attack. This will be all important as the radical Islamic world will be outraged a Temple to what they see as a false God will stand near the Dome of the Rock mosque. Pretrib? If that's the case, your interpretation is filtered through a false lens.

That doesn't really work. If this is prophesied circa 95 AD, then Domitian was emperor, the 11th or 12th Roman emperor. If this prophecy was given in 65 AD, as some suspect, the 8th king of the 7 is come and gone leaving dozens of prophecies unfulfilled. This also rejects the teaching of the OT prophecies concerning the origin of the little horn, which is from one of the four that arose after Greece, an origin which must be centered in Macedonia, Egypt, Asia Minor or Mesopotamia; none of which are Rome. Further, Dan 11 prophesies of the Wars of the Diadochi, right to the A of D committed by AE IV, a Syrian king and descendant of Seleucus I Nicator, Seleucus I being one of the four notable ones that arose from the fall of the Grecian kingdom. The prophecies of Daniel don't follow Rome, they follow the Wars of the Diadochi in general and it appears to me, the Mesopotamian rule of Seleucus to his progeny Antiochus IV Epiphanes in particular.

The image of the statue gives no identity except for Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold, as interpreted. Sliver, Bronze and Iron follow but are not identified here. What does time have to do with it? Do you just like the shorter time span between Greece and when The Roman Empire rose to power? Rome certainly didn't immediately follow the Grecian empire. Rome wasn't more than thatched roofs and mud walls, and fighting for survival, in 330 BC. Is that a criteria in Dan 2? All I see in Dan 2 about the King is: "As you watched, a stone was cut out,d but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 35Then the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were shattered and became like chaff on the threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that had struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." This is the coming rule of the King of kings. Next is the interpretation: "In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever. 45And just as you saw a stone being cut out of the mountain without human hands, and it shattered the iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold, so the great God has told the king what will happen in the future." And if we are staying in Dan 2 then you are correct, nothing in Dan 2 speaks to the prophecies of the coming Messiah, His death and resurrection, the demise of pagan Rome, the destruction of Jerusalem. All I see is the Lord's great victory over the kings of the earth and His everlasting kingdom. I think you relate this to the two divisions of Rome. I don't see that since there are no direct or indirect statement in support. As I look at history and the future prophecies there are a few clues allowing for the deduction it is Islam. Islam once was undiluted from 700-1400 AD. Islam has infiltrated many countries and I relate that to this: "As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the peoplese will mix with one another, but will not hold together any more than iron mixes with clay." That's quite a stretch, imo. Partly sugar and partly water, and partly water and partly sugar, and water mixed with sugar and sugar mixed with water, is still sugar water, and in the same ratio. I think you are reaching here. It means nothing to me.

True. Not convinced about the wording above, "and east to the pleasant land". I don't see it worded that way in scripture. I can't say that for sure. Lineage can be a major factor. AE IV was the grandson of Seleucus I, the same AE IV that committed the abomination of desolation in 168 BC. Does the beast have to have a lineage? No. Does he have to arise from one of the Diadochi? Yes. The only example we have of the A of D was perpetrated by Seleucid progeny, from Mesopotamia. Could be in the middle. It's not required to be from the westernmost of the Diadochi. From Mesopotamia there is still South, East and West. South toward Egypt and Saudi Arabia, East toward Iran and Pakistan and the other 'Stans, west toward Israel and Jerusalem.

Those verses show attributes of the Iron Kingdom, not a name. The identity comes from other verses and some deduction. I don't know. No one has ever asked me that question. Off the top of my head, without looking into it, I don't think so. There are some critical passages that lead me toward Mesopotamia, and away from Italy, as the region of the Iron Kingdom.

The infiltration of radical Islam into other countries and to a lesser degree those of the West converting to Islam and/or radical Islam. Islam is the iron from what I see.

Yes. And Dan 8 explains that four notable ones arise after Alexander, and from one of the four notable ones the little horn arises, the end of the age beast. The four are not the iron kingdom of the statue, the little horn is. The four horns rose after Greece, none are Rome.

What is see is the succession from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece to the Diadochi. Dan 8 says, 9From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land. That little horn is the beast and the leader of the 4th kingdom, and he comes from one of the Diadochi. This is the who the little horn is and what he does and his ultimate end: "an insolent king, skilled in intrigue, will come to the throne. 24His power will be great, but it will not be his own. He will cause terrible destruction and succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men along with the holy people. 25Through his craft and by his hand, he will cause deceit to prosper, and in his own mind he will make himself great. In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be broken off, but not by human hands." Clearly the beast/antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition, etc. I would say there are 3 clearly identified kingdoms in the statue but after that there is one kingdom that appears twice. Once when the iron kingdom is pure, hard iron with no dilution, and once when the iron kingdom is a mixture. As in the 4th kingdom of iron, and then later the Iron Kingdom 4.1. Islam is a much better fit in the prophetic puzzle of the identity of the 4th kingdom, imo.