TrevorL

Greetings again Walter Goraj jr, Each of us need to decide whether or not we accept this passage and I accept what Barnes’ NT Notes states is valid. I suggest that Trinitarians must be desperate to rely upon this passage. Even if we accept 1 John 5:7 as it appears in the KJV, we need to consider whether it is actually teaching the Trinity. There are a few passages in the NIV that seem to be more biased towards the Trinity than the KJV. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Consider Psalm 110:1 and its many NT quotations and expositions. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Walter Goraj jr, Many Trinitarian scholars consider this passage to be spurious. For example consider Barnes' NT Notes. Most modern translation exclude this passage. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Charlie, I appreciate your explanation, but I cannot accept your view nor your various applications of the time periods. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Charlie744, I will be brief mainly because others including yourself have expressed a different perspective. I believe that the 2300 evening/mornings represent 2300 years. The treading down commenced when the Goat slew the Ram, that is Alexander the Great overthrew the Persians in BC334-333. As a result the Holy Land came under subjection to an antagonistic power, the Greeks, while the Persians had been supportive of the return of the Jews from Babylon and the reestablishment of their worship in Jerusalem, hence the term "trodden under foot". The 2300 years terminated when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem in AD 1967. After the Greeks, the Romans also trod down the people and the land and the little horn of Daniel 8:9 is specifically the pagan Roman power who withstood Jesus and overthrew the Temple in AD 70. Some of the language of Daniel 8:13-14 is alluded to by Jesus in his Mount Olivet prophecy, refer some underlining. I will simply quote this and allow you to respond and discuss this further if you are interested. Daniel 8:9–14 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Matthew 24:15–19 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give milk in those days! Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give milk, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. I have not checked your posts on Daniel 11, but I would be interested in how you understand Daniel 11:40. I believe that Russia will be the new King of the North and will invade Turkey, and the current events may lead to this occurring soon. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again enoob57, I believe that the language of Revelation 21 is figurative as there will be sea during the 1000 years. The new heavens and earth of Isaiah 65:17-25 gives literal detail as to what this expression represents and there is no hint of the destruction and replacement of Jerusalem and the earth, but a change, a transition. But the message was always there, and the Servant prophecies of Isaiah clearly indicate that the Messiah would suffer, especially Isaiah 53. Other Scriptures are Psalms 16 and 22 and many others. Jesus upbraided the disciples for not understanding these things: Luke 24:25–27, 44-48 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again enoob57, I suggest that you refer again to the way Jesus uses the word “world” (kosmos S#2889) in John 17:6,9 in its context and the following are a few more examples where Jesus uses the world to describe the Jewish world and not the physical earth: John 15:19 (KJV): If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. John 17:14–16 (KJV): 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Now the earth did not hate the disciples, but the Jewish world, especially centred in the Pharisees and the Sadducees hated both Jesus and the disciples. I believe that destruction by fire is figurative language based in part from the concept of the altar of burnt offering, but also the burning or scattering of the chaff when Jesus returns to judge first his household and then the nations. For example the Parable of the Tares: Matthew 13:30 (KJV): Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:41–43 (KJV): 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. There is some indication in Isaiah that Israel would fail to respond, and there is also the teaching that the preaching would go forth to the Gentiles. Firstly Israel as a whole failed to respond to the teaching of Isaiah and Jesus: Isaiah 6:9–10 (KJV): 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. The 1st Servant Song indicates that the preaching and influence of Jesus would spread to the Gentiles: Isaiah 42:6 (KJV): I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; These two concepts are combined in the 2nd Servant Song, where Israel fails to respond and the way is open for the Gentiles: Isaiah 49:5–6 (KJV): 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. This particular passage is used by Paul to speak about his role as the Apostle to the Gentiles. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again enoob57, Yes, I agree we seem to be not connecting here. I cannot accept the suggestion that the “world” of John 18 speaks about this earth. Rather I understand the word “world” speaks of the Jewish system of things at that time. Jesus uses the same term in his prayer in John 17, on the same day: John 17:6–10 (KJV): 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Also you speak of the first heaven and earth being destroyed by fire. Many believe that at the return of Jesus the present earth will be burnt by fire, but I believe that this is a figure for judgement, not destruction. The prophecies like Isaiah 2:1-4 give a vision of a period of judgement and then transition to the Kingdom of God. Acts 3:19-21 speak of times of refreshing and restoration with the coming of Jesus, and these times are spoken of by all the prophets. Despite some fire of judgement at his return, the net effect of Jesus’ return is times of refreshing not destruction. Also you seemed to dismiss the prophets in some respects, saying that the Messiah of Isaiah would not be realised. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again enoob57, This is where we differ. I believe that Isaiah’s prophecies will be fulfilled concerning the Kingdom and the Messiah, when Jesus returns to the earth to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem, and will reign over Israel and the nations for 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again enoob57, Possibly you could clarify this. Undoubtedly we have access to the larger picture. But say an Israelite who lived in Isaiah’s day, he had most of the books up to Isaiah in our Bible and he had Isaiah’s words and Hezekiah’s example which specifically revealed the Coming Messiah. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again enoob57, I appreciate your comments, but I suggest that there is much more revealed during the period of the Law, for example the Psalms and the Prophets. These are important and remarkable portions of the Word of God. I especially like a selection of some of the Psalms and the prophecy of Isaiah. There are many quotations of these in the New Testament, and comparing the context of these in the OT and NT is very enlightening. Thus I possibly question some of the labels used by Dispensationalists. I have heard the expression Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, and I cannot agree with the few descriptions that I have read on this suggestion as they seem to suggest that the method and consequences of salvation is different before and after Mid-Acts. I believe that Acts 8:5-6,12 is a good example of the preaching of the Gospel and the response by those who heard Philip. Paul preached the same in Acts 28:31. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Enoob57, Salvation was available before the Law was given, as for example, Abraham was justified by faith Genesis 15:5-6, 22:15-18. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again enoob57, One explanation is that the Law was there to teach the pattern of things that would afterwards be fully revealed in Christ. Again you use a title that I do not understand “Covenantal theology”. I believe that the New Covenant consists of the promises made concerning Eve, and to Abraham and David and confirmed with the blood of Christ, and this replaces the Old Covenant, the Law given to Moses. What is EMP? Galatians 3:24 (KJV): Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again enoob57, I appreciate the detailed information. We need to keep some of these things in mind as we read the Scriptures. Your mention of these aspects remind me of another Dispensationalist, Ethelbert Bullinger. I have a number of his reference books including Figures of Speech used in the Bible and The Companion Bible. This gives me the impression that Dispensationalists are very analytical. I am not a Dispensationalist and do not know fully what this represents, or the various versions of Dispensationalism. For my part, I believe that there has been one method of salvation from the Garden of Eden, and that is Justification by Faith in the Gospel. As far as Isaiah 2:1-4 I would suggest the common expression “guns or butter” is similar, but not altogether literal. I do not know what is “EMP”. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings enoob57, I agree with most of the article that you quoted, but I question what he says in the above. Firstly I am not a dispensationalist, and possibly fit in with those that differ from the dispensationalist in the above statement. I would like to know if a dispensationalist demands that swords and spears and ploughshares and scythes need to be literal in the following passage, or would he be content to view this in a general sense, that money and industry that has been spent in manufacturing weapons of war will be redirected into agriculture during the Kingdom of God upon earth when Christ returns to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem. Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. In other words, does a dispensationalist demand that the future warfare preceding Christ's return, which I believe is very soon, will be fought with swords and spears? Kind regards Trevor

Greetings RevJanine, I am reading two books at the moment and both have been of interest and one specifically has been very edifying. But if this thread also includes the Bible itself, I have been considering Isaiah 6 not only recently, but over the years. Many aspects are unique to this chapter and it appears to have many layers and at first difficult concepts. This chapter is also quoted in the NT a number of times and applied to the preaching by Christ. I would be interested if anyone has a perspective on this chapter and would like to discuss this here or in another dedicated thread. As a taster, please give a suggestion of what the three sets of wings represent, one pair covering the face, another the feet, and the other pair flying. I have a personal opinion on this last feature, and I have shared it with a friend who I respect as a thorough expositor, but he did not endorse my view on this. I will reserve my opinion until we progress. After writing the above I read the thread titled "Favourite scripture, Bible verses". Possibly I should have posted into that thread. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Waggles, What you have quoted appears difficult at first from a non-Trinitarian view. In brief summary, this shows the development of the Yahweh Name, from Yahweh God the Father to incorporate Jesus the Son of God. I believe that John 8:58 is part of a theme, and in the two previous occasions where “I Am” occurs the KJV has translated these as “I am he” in John 8:24,28. Note especially verse 28 where Jesus is claiming his complete dependence on God his Father. Neither of these refer back to Exodus 3:14, neither does John 8:58. The correct translation of “Ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14 is “I will be”, as per Tyndale, RV and RSV margins and KJV of Exodus 3:12. Have you had opportunity to consider Psalm 110:1, where Yahweh is distinguished from David’s Lord? Thus Yahweh in this passage refers to God the Father and not Jesus, who is David's Lord. Please also consider the numerous NT quotations of Psalm 110:1 where this distinction is maintained. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Waggles, Have you ever considered that the way Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom as a Wise Woman and is not a literal person here, is a precursor to the language of John 1 where the Word is personified, and is not a literal person? Wisdom and the Word pre-existed, not Jesus. Have you ever considered Psalm 110:1 where Yahweh, God the Father is distinguished from David's Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is now seated at the right hand of Yahweh, God the Father? Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Hazard, I said in my previous post, that I was taught from my youth, that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I also at the age of 19 onwards became more aware that local churches taught the Trinity, and I suggest that what you have stated in your latest Post is a typical example. I could answer most of what you have said, one portion, or one Scripture at a time, but a few may suffice. The most obvious one is that despite Waggles objection, and without addressing what he stated, you continue to quote 1 John 5:7 again. I suggest that you look at a few Trinitarian commentaries, and even they reject this verse. Barnes NT Notes for example gives a reasonable coverage. Please note that most modern translations simply exclude this verse. I suggest that some Trinitarians must feel desperate if they need to quote 1 John 5:7. Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Please note that there is a distinction made between Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, David’s Lord. In the Hebrew “LORD” and “Lord” here are two different words. The two “Lords” are only in English. Even the KJV translators distinguish the two words in Matthew 22:44. I suggest that the one Name is Yahweh, and that this not a Trinity formula. Yahweh God the Father worked in and through the Son of God partly by means of God’s power, the Holy Spirit to accomplish God’s purpose, revealed in His Name Yahweh. The three elements are found in the following: Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Yahweh’s salvation): for he shall save his people from their sins. Acts 2:22–23 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Neither of these quotations match the Trinity concept. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Your closest friendnt, I appreciate your interest and invitation. What I would like to present is what I would teach our children as a framework or basis to consider other aspects of this subject. This was my experience up to say the age of 19, when I then needed to consider additional concepts such as the meaning of Yahweh and Elohim and the subject of God manifestation and also compare other ideas, such as the strange teaching in a few local Churches, called the Trinity. Our Sunday School teaches at three levels, Junior, Intermediate and Senior, and subdivide the lessons into five years in each category, staring with Genesis and ending with the Apostles. This makes 15 years, and is suitable to cover all this from the age of 4 to 19. We are introduced to the one God as creator in Genesis 1-2, the promise concerning the seed of the woman who would overcome sin and its effects in Genesis 3:15. We learn of Abraham and his call to the land that he and his seed would receive for ever, and see in the offering of Isaac a pattern of greater things to come, in the offering up of God’s Son, in his crucifixion, death and resurrection. The Angel of Yahweh appeared to Moses, and revealed the Name of God as Yahweh, “He who will be or become”, and this Name was revealed to indicate that God would be active in delivering Israel out of Egypt. We read of the promises to David concerning his seed who would also be the Son of God. Coming to the NT, we read of the conception and birth of Jesus the Son of God in fulfilment of this promise to David in the following terms: Luke 1:30–35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. As a result Jesus was born as a human, a man child, a descendant of Adam through Mary his mother, and yet was the Son of God because God was his father in the conception / birth process. God is the Father, first because he is the father of Jesus the Son of God, in his conception and birth, and then also the Son of God in his character and in his resurrection. Luke then records that Jesus grew in wisdom and understanding: Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. At the time of his ministry, John records that they beheld the moral glory revealed in Jesus, the only begotten of the Father: John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. When Paul wrote his Letter to the Romans, he states that the Gospel is centred in the fact that Jesus is the son of David and Son of God by birth, and declared to be the Son of God by his moral character, and because he has now been raised from the dead, and he is now seated at the right hand of the One God, His Father Psalm 110:1: Romans 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Kind regards Trevor

Greetings, I have read many of your confusing explanations of the Trinity, a doctrine that was nearly fully developed by the 3rd and 4th Centuries by the Apostate Church. I am not sure when the Athanasian Creed was first written, but it is a most confusing document written on this subject. The Bible and Apostolic teaching is that there is One God, the Father, known in the OT as Yahweh, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Berean, One definition is found in Daniel 2:44, where it states that in the future Jesus will return and overthrow the present kingdoms of men and replace them with the Kingdom of God upon this earth, and from elsewhere this will last 1000 years. Many prophecies such as Isaiah 2:1-4 reveal the details, where Jesus sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem, and the remnants of the nations become subject and learn God's ways. Micah 4:1-8 uses the same language and reveals that the nation of Israel will be fully restored and converted and become the first dominion in the Kingdom of God. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Shiloh357, Your definition was the following: You say: “Elohim is what we refer to as a plural of majesty in divine terms.” This seems obscure to me. If I was to define Elohim, I would firstly note that part of the word has “El” and this is another title for God representing strength or power, indicating that God the Father is the source of power or strength. Then there is some suggestion that Elohim is the plural of Eloah, and this could be translated as the Strong or Powerful one. Thus as far as the derivation of the word and its meaning, then Elohim could be translated “Mighty Ones”. The question then is how is this word Elohim used? We find it is used for God Himself, but often also includes the Angels. Often Elohim is used with a singular verb such as in Genesis 1:1. One explanation of this is the same as your suggestion, but my previous definition also fits. I believe that it is the One God, the Father who works through numerous representatives, such as Angels, Judges and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. I suggest that Elohim in Genesis 17:22 and Exodus 3:6 is not God the Father, nor the second person of the Trinity, but an Angel representing God. You say: “It is an intensive plural that is not numerical when applied to God. So in reference to the God of the Bible, "Elohim" is not "Gods." You seem to make up the rule to suit your understanding. Yes there are instances of intensive plural in Hebrew, but I believe that there is a plurality in the word Elohim, and that plurality includes God the Father’s representatives, the Angels, Judges and the Lord Jesus Christ, depending on the context. Psalm 8:5 is one example where the best translation of Elohim is Angels. Also Psalm 8:5 is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 explaining who are the “Us” and “Our” of Genesis 1:26. I initially checked my interlinear NASB95 on Logos 7 and now after your response I have checked the interlinear on Bible Hub. Both these sources show John 10:30 and John 17:11 are the same. Please check your Greek references again. The NASB95 interlinear had two different Greek texts, and these differed from each other, but John 10:30 and John 17:11 were the same when each text was compared to the same text. Did you use two different texts or a text that differs from my references? Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Shiloh357, You have mainly asserted the Trinity and denied my belief that there is one God the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. I will briefly comment on the following: I certainly agree that Elohim is not "Gods" in the English sense of the word. I believe that Elohim can be defined as the One God who works through many agents, such as the Angels, the Judges and the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that in Genesis 1:26 God the Father is inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man. Psalm 8:5 supports this view, as this is David’s summary of Genesis 1:26-27. Elohim in Psalm 8:5 is translated Angels. Could you please check your Greek references as I found the occurrence in John 10:30 and the two occurrences in John 17:11 to be all the same. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Shiloh357 and patrickjane, What you say could be correct if the Trinity was true. But I suggest that the Trinity is not taught in the Bible. I was introduced to the concept that there is one God the Father and that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God when I was an infant, and we continue to teach our infants. I was introduced to an exposition of the Yahweh Name and understanding of OT use of Elohim when I was 19 at a YPs study weekend. My understanding of all of this has expanded over the years and I now have a better understanding of God the Father’s revelation of Himself and his character and purpose as it is centred in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. I appreciate your thorough treatment of Philippians 2. I suggest that it is a comparison with Adam. Note the RV mg “Gr. A thing to be grasped”. Jesus was born the Son of God, the greatest prince ever born, but he did not use this status and privilege in a proud way, but humbled himself as a servant, and was obedient unto death. That glory was in prospect before the creation. Notice the past tense of Psalm 8:5. It speaks as if it was an accomplished fact. Despite your claim to Hebrew, I would like to see your exposition of the plural “us” in Genesis 1:26-27 and the introduction and use of Elohim in Genesis 1-3. I suggest that this is Trinitarian double talk to reject the Biblical teaching that Jesus is the Son of God. How do you explain the same language “one” used in John 17 for the disciples? I view the Word in John 1:1-3 the same as Wisdom in Proverbs 8. It is speaking of how the character of God, the fullness of grace and truth came to be revealed in God’s begotten Son, the word made flesh. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Shiloh357 and patrickjane, That is why I do not accept the Trinity. My understanding is that there is the One God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. This can be explained and understood, from a children's level to an adult understanding. No need to go from light to darkness. I am conscious of “sons of thunder”, but Jesus is both the literal Son of God by birth and he is also the fullness of God by character. This is also why God is called the Father, as all things are derived from Him. When we bow before Jesus in worship it is to the glory of God the Father Philippians 2:9-11. God gave him the power Acts 2:22. I believe that Philippians 2:5-8 is speaking of the disposition of the mind of Jesus during his teenage years and leading up to and including his ministry. Nothing to do with pre-existence and incarnation. The language is in contrast with Adam who followed Eve who grasped at equality. Not sure if this was meant to be your answer to me, but not sure of your meaning. I believe that Elohim has a range of meaning, rather than a different meaning. I suggest that it could be defined as the One God, the Father who works in and through individuals, such as Angels, Judges and also through Jesus the Son of God. There are no distinguishing capitals in Hebrew. I suggest that Jesus’ comments in John 10:30-36 help to unlock the Biblical usage of Elohim, and Jesus uses Psalm 82:6 to explain his own role, not as God, but as the representative of God. Kind regards Trevor