OldCoot

Far out. We make the same claim about each other.

Very good observation Shiloh!

At least there is no ambiguity in where you stand. We will see how that works out. But thanks for confirming that the time is near.

Ok. who are those who call themselves Jews but are not? That can work a number of ways.... people who claim a jewish ancestry as well as those who promote similar ideas as the church has replaced Israel. And given the events of the last 2000 years, it really boggles the mind as to why anyone would want to claim any kind of Jew status when they knew full well that it was a false.

There is nothing really wrong with calling out actions by Israel. There is nothing wrong with calling out individual Jewish actions, just like there is nothing wrong with pointing out when believers make major mistakes. There could be a problem in making the accusation that those who claim to be Jewish are not so. Actually, when Israel became a nation in 1948, 80% of the Jewish people living there were Sabras... long time generational Jews who had centuries long ties to the land. Israel as a nation might have been wiped out in 135AD, but there has always been a major Jewish presence in the land throughout the centuries. Major Jewish populations in Tiberias, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa, Caesarea, and even Jerusalem. So many that when the Crusaders marched thru the land, some would have contests to see how many Jewish babies they could get on a sword. In one instance, 20,000 Jews were rounded up into the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem and burned alive while the Crusaders marched around singing "Christ We Adore Thee". If one bases the "there are no Jews" thing on genetics, then there is not Messiah either. Boaz was 1/2 Hebrew, his mother was Rahab of Jericho. Boaz married Ruth, a Moabitess, and Obed their son was 1/4 Hebrew. Yet, that is the lineage of Messiah. Detailed genetics research done by Bennett Greenspan and his team of researchers have shown that there is a genetic marker regarding the Hebrew people. They have the largest databases of genetic research. On the Y-DNA side (father to son) they test to 500 short tandem repeats, and over 100,000 SNP's on the Y Chromosome. On the Mitochondrial DNA (mother side), they do MtDNA full sequencing. Both of these tracked with some of the most extensive of migrational pattern databases. Here is a video detailing much of this and destroys the nonsense that has been espoused by some who are not real DNA researchers on this issue....

Even many in Israel believe the original temple was NOT at the Antonia fortress on which the Al Aqsa Mosque is located. GS stated it right. Bob Cornuke and others have done detailed analysis of the area of the Gihon Spring and there is ample evidence of that is where the Temple originally stood, just down the hill from the Antonia fortress. The Romans wanted to be elevated above the Temple so that they could keep an eye on things. It is how they were able to respond so quickly to the goings on in Acts 21 when Paul went to the Temple area. When it comes right down to it, while there will always be protests from others no matter what Israel does, building the temple will not be any conflict with existing structures. The area of the old Temple is clear of housing, cemeteries, businesses, etc. Nothing to stop construction of the Temple to begin except the awareness by the leadership of where it is. The Antonia fortress area has been so ingrained in folks' minds that it is the Temple area. A falsehood, expressed often enough, eventually becomes viewed as the truth.

Maybe looking at this from a different angle helps. If I think that the speed of light is infinite, then find out it actually has a limited speed, and because of learning that I then change my mind, is that change considered a work or a mental response? Repentance is simply changing one's mind about who Jesus is. It is an acknowledgement of the truth of who He is and trusting in Him for redemption. Just that simple. No work, just a simple acknowledgement of who He is and trusting in Him.

Yeah, I can believe that. That is why many folks put stuff like this almost in the same category as the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, etc even though they are not. That is generally why major divisions between Christians occur. The position is well held. Go into any congregation and ask folks to explain what was really going on in Genesis 6 and how that relates to Yeshua's comments regarding "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be". Many folks will usually give you that deer in the headlight look. I not only talk with people in most eschatological camps, but I actually attend a congregation that has many folks who hold a wide range of eschatological positions. One of them, I helped organize a community outreach program with a year ago, he thinks we are in the tribulation period right now. I am solidly dispensational pre-trib. I know people in mid, post, pre-wrath, etc. There was a lot more going on than eating and drinking and giving in marriage. That alone would not be anything new. That has been going on for the entire existence of man. Why would the Lord destroy all of the earth with a flood except for 8 people because they were eating and drinking and giving in marriage? The idea that you used that as your only proof text exhibits a myopic understanding of the depth of what was going on back then to cause YHVH to destroy the earth. Who specifically were being "given in marriage" or rather, consummating relations in Genesis 6? The bene ha Elohim and the daughters of men. The sons of men aren't even mentioned. If we look at extra biblical accounts of this period, the "eating and drinking" has a more macabre meaning. Cannibalism and drinking blood. The Hebrew behind "perfect in his generations" regarding Noah has a more specific meaning of "perfect in his genetics". The terms used for Noah in Genesis 6 is the same terms used of an unblemished sacrifice. Genetically sound. Noah was far from a perfect man in character and action. See the post flood accounts of Noah. Yeshua did not go into more detail because He didn't need to. His Hebrew audience would have known exactly what He was talking about. If one thinks that those disciples were just rubes that Yeshua grabbed up along the way, they do not understand the Hebrew 1st century culture. Most Hebrew children could read and write Hebrew by age 5. they had the entire Torah memorized by age 10. They understood the traditions and legends of their culture. And you think that my statement that most of the folks today in all eschatological camps are woefully ignorant of these ideas is generalization? I am quite convinced the assertion is spot on. If the hostile takeover occurred in Genesis 3, then how is the claim of Satan to Yeshua that he would give all the nations of the world to Him if He would bow down and worship Satan a real temptation? Yet, scripture says that Satan was tempting Yeshua to sin. Satan got the title deed to this world after Adam sinned. The Lord and scripture recognizes that. Yeshua has not claimed His ownership yet that He paid for with His act of redemption. Even Psalms 110 brings that out. Psalms 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” Well, that hasn't happened yet. Take a look at the daily news for confirmation. And as of yet, I do not see Yeshua ruling from the holy hill of Zion per YHVH's statement in the Psalms, and in the authority of King David over the land, per the scripture and the affirmation by Gabriel when he visited Miriam to let her know she would be the mother of the Messiah. And if Satan is locked up, his chain is too long.

If there was ever a calling for the National Guard, this is it. Watching this caravan move along, I have lost what little sympathy I might have had. These folks, almost all young men and many of them recruited by the drug cartels, are clearly intent on crashing the U.S. party. And we need to hold Mexico equally accountable if they do not stop this rabble before they get to the border. As a veteran of the Viet Nam gig and wore the uniform for most of the 1970's, I am loathe to suggest any kind of military action. But there comes a time when the defense of the nation has come. This is, according to the Constitution, the primary job of the Government. Not to wipe our noses and provide for our wants, but to defend the nation against all enemies.... foreign and domestic.

I suggest anyone who is similar to the OP, read the stories of those who have been persecuted for their faith. Locked up for years, sometimes in solitary confinement for months and months. Sent to forced labor camps. Tortured. How do they still have joy in the Lord and worship Him even on their worse days. When we take our focus off of ourselves and focus on the Lord and others, things seem to come more into focus.

Decided to revive your post. I listened today to what the guy who shot up the Pittsburgh synagogue today said and had posted online and the quoted portion above regarding the Jews sounded came to mind. Hitler and the Nazis quoted Luther extensively regarding their justification for the holocaust against the Jews also. And much of it was the same Judaism is Satanic rant that was posted above. Kinda makes one wonder how this fits in "I will bless them that bless you and curse you that curse you" that YHVH promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all their descendants. Especially when one says they are Satanic or even goes so far as to try and use secular reasoning to suggest there are no real Jews anymore and all that make that claim are imposters. More and more I am made aware that the time is getting short.

Marv Rosenthal, one of the primary proponents of the pre-wrath position is a fine man and a committed Christian brother. But I still disagree with his analysis promoting the pre-wrath position. That's ok. We can disagree on a these sideline issues and still maintain Christian fellowship. That there is quite an assumption. Mostly that anyone can actually be "prepared" for what is coming down the pike. Most folks in all eschatological camps are woefully ignorant of what is going to transpire on the earth. Just imagine all the evil that has been done over the span of man's existence on this planet. And it will pale in comparison to what is coming. There is no real frame of reference to prepare for what is coming. Even Yeshua said that many would go into cardiac arrest just seeing what is coming upon the earth. There is a lot more to the meaning behind what Yeshua said regarding "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be" than many folks have any grasp off. What was going on there was bad enough to cause YHVH to destroy most of everything except 8 people. And Yeshua said that the GT period would be worse than that. How does anyone really prepare for that? I am not sure it is possible. The question then becomes, knowing that it will be the worse period of time in all history, why would Yeshua allow those He has already redeemed go thru that? What would be the purpose? To purify those He has redeemed? Well such an assertion would imply that Yeshua's redemption was not enough to get the job done. That is bordering on blasphemy, but at least an insult to YHVH. At the very least it doesn't make sense in regard to those already redeemed. So what would be the purpose of causing the redeemed to go thru that period? There really is no good answer to that without bordering on some sort of "purgatory" idea or some form of works righteousness concept. Either way, it implies that the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua just wasn't good enough to redeem anyone. And is the pre-trib "escapism"? You bet your life it is!! But no more so than turning to the Lord and trusting in Him is escapism from eternal punishment. What part of redemption is not essentially escapism?

Not really. See the post above. Specifically, the kingdom parables of Matthew 13 along with passages in Ezekiel and the Psalms don't paint the wonderful Kumbaya picture you do. You are individually spiritualizing the context when there is no reason to do so. When Yeshua has returned and is ruling from Jerusalem per the scripture, sin will still be a problem. Many confuse the millennial reign here on earth with some perfect idea of heaven. They are not the same entities. During the millennial reign on the earth of Yeshua, there will be sin, death, even rejection of His authority. This is why He will need to rule with a rod of iron as per the scripture. And discontent with Yeshua's running things will lead to Satan being able to foment one last major rebellion when he is released. Like I stated in the last post, if the Millennial Kingdom is so perfect, then why does it only last 1000 years and not forever? Just that fact alone lets us know that the Millennial Kingdom is far from perfection.

That would be true regarding the period after the millennial reign of Messiah, which is later than the period we are discussing, the period when Yeshua returns to this earth. Don't confuse different periods as being the same period. The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 paint a different picture than what you stated as happening at the coming of Yeshua to rule on this earth. Evil and sin remains even in the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom. If the "blackness of the darkness of this world of the Devil" is annihilated, then why does Yeshua need to rule with a rod of iron? (Psalms 2:9 and Revelation 2:26-27) Why is that those who refuse to come to Jerusalem at the feast of Tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land? (Ezekiel) And how is it that at the end of the 1000 years, when Satan is released, is he able foment a major rebellion against the Lord? (Psalm 2 and Revelation 20) And if the Millennial Reign of Yeshua is so perfect, why is it only lasting 1000 years and not forever? You claim that the war during Yeshua's return does away with all that. Scripture doesn't support that claim.

Well then how would you describe the Lord's return, when He decimates the armies that are arrayed against Him? And how is it that the scripture is replete that He will rule the world with a rod of iron? That sure sounds like a hostile takeover to me. I don't get the feeling that there will be an election and we vote Him in charge. And while the earth may be the Lord's, He has not come to claim it yet and it is still ruled by a psychotic super cherub bent on destroying all that God has created. Paul stated very clearly that Satan is the prince of the power of the air. He is not going to just side step and allow Yeshua to take charge. You advise others to look at the scripture, you might want to take a dose of your own medicine. In the temptations that were thrown at Yeshua, Satan stated he would give Yeshua all the nations of the world if He would bow down and worship him. That would not be a temptation if Satan didn't own and control the nations of this world. Satan has had total control of the nations and the world since the fall of Adam. Remember when the angel had to fight against the "prince of Persia" 21 days and only was able to get thru to Daniel when the angel Michael came to help him? Daniel 10. And after he talked with Daniel, he would have to go and fight against the prince of Greece. These "princes" are fallen angels that control the world nations and governments. They will have to be forcibly overthrown by Yeshua when He returns to set up His kingdom on this earth. And it still remains. Yeshua was quite clear in Hosea and Matthew that the Hebrew people (all the tribes) still have a purpose and calling. He is not going to return till they acknowledge their offense of rejection, turn to Him, and petition His return to rescue them. It has nothing to do with the Church or what we think about it. And by extension, it also means that the Church has not replaced the Hebrew people in the plan of God. YHVH can walk and chew gum at the same time. There is a called out redeemed group known as the Ekklesia or Church, but there is also a elect (see Isaiah) national group known as Hebrews that also have a purpose in the plan of God. You say that Judaism is a Satanic religion. How is following the Torah satanic? If you are basing it on their rejection of Yeshua, Paul makes it very clear that it is out of ignorance that they reject. And the Church has had a lot to do with that. The way the Church has historically treated the Hebrew people, it is no wonder why they are loathe to accept Yeshua. They see Yeshua as a pagan idol. They really have not been presented the true Yeshua, the promised Messiah. They are blind now, but their eyes will be opened, and in fact are opening now, to see that the one they have rejected is indeed the promised Messiah. Then the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham will be fully realized. But they had to be the way they have been for the last 2000 years, so that the gentiles could hear the gospel and accept Yeshua and so the prophecies in scripture will be fulfilled. You are calling something satanic that was predicted and known by YHVH all along. The Jewish belief system is what has kept the Hebrew people as a distinct identity thru the centuries to bring them to the this time to fulfill what the prophets said.

You see a boogeyman behind every tree don’t you? the Jewish man who will do a hostile takeover of the earth is none other than Yeshua Himself. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah. That you couldn’t make that distinction is telling. That is why I have that in my signature line. In many cases, it exposes who people truly are. Just like war. War doesn't bring out who we want to be, it exposes who we really are.

Oh... I get it now! The Gospel according to Shirley McLain and Oprah! The trees are God, The angaels are God, so all created things are God! Pantheism on steroids.

Well, that assumes that the return of Yeshua to the earth is the same thing as the removal of the redeemed to Him. But there is a lot of Tanakh (OT) passages that support the idea that the redeemed are hidden from all the calamities of the 70th week, and go so far as to allude that the redeemed are taken and hidden with the Lord while that is going on. Isaiah 26:19-21 for instance dovetails quite nicely with Yeshua's comments in John 14:2-3. And the same passage in Isaiah dovetails quite nicely with what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. And Psalms 27:5 also supports this. And that is only scratching the surface. And when combined with the child being born in Revelation 12, many OT passages that talk about Israel giving birth at the start or immediately before the end times calamities seems to match up. The child is indeed the Messiah, but as the body of Messiah, the redeemed. Yeshua Himself was never "caught up", "harpazo", "raptured" at His birth. But His body, the redeemed, which was conceived in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit came upon those in the room on Shavuot (Pentecost), will be born and immediately caught up / harpazo / raptured. And it is after this event that the woman, Israel, flees to the wilderness and Satan is cast down.

Quite probably!

No, you are just ill informed. Victorinus 240AD, Ephraim 373AD, Shepherd 150AD, Cyprian 250AD are all documented and clear examples. No ambiguity on what they taught. There are example all thru AD history. And Isaiah 26, Zephaniah 2, Psalms 27 for instance all have allusions to the righteous being hidden from that period of time, going so far as to suggest being hidden where the Lord is. So these are references that suggest a pre-trib idea even before Yeshua came on the scene the first time. I would say that is pre-Darby. That's ok that you don't see it. Olaf Roemer discovered light had a finite speed and the scientific community thought he was a crack pot for over 50 years until it was finally shown by other scientists to be true. Until then, they said Roemer was dreaming. But there are probably still some hold outs that still think light speed is infinite. And is the Latin Vulgate revisionist? And wouldn't you think that a translation of the Greek made into Latin at a time when Greek was still in common usage might stand a pretty good chance of getting the meaning of the Greek in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 correct as opposed to some translators on the Greek over 1000 years later? The Latin Vulgate uses dicessio in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which means a departure in a physical sense not a spiritual one. But, there are many Greek scholars that support the meaning in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as being a physical departure as opposed to a spiritual one. Dr. Andy Woods, Dr. Kenneth Wuest, et al. All supporting the translation of the text that many English translations did prior to the KJV. That someone on a forum claiming that the opposite is apparent to even an eighth grader can see it does not make is sound exegesis. I am more inclined to go with what I stated based on the examples I gave above. It probably would be very difficult to produce an 8th grader who understands the nuances of Koine Greek today.

That comment would make sense if Darby had originated the idea. The pre-trib notion has its roots clear back to when the ink was still wet on the New Testament. So, Newton couldn't have been referring to the pre-tribbers. There is more than ample evidence that dispensational pre-trib doctrine was around long before Darby. Some folks just seem to have an obsession with Darby. That is not healthy. Virtually every English translation of the NT (up till the KJV) and the Latin Vulgate almost stated categorically the pre-trib position in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. They majority of these essentially implied that there would be a physical departure before the antichrist could be revealed. The Latin Vulgate used dicessio, which has a general meaning of physical departure. At least 8 English translations all used "the departure" or simply "departure" where the KJV (and subsequent translations except the recent ISV) used "falling away". So it would seem that prior to the KJV coming on the scene in 1611, the general consensus implied a pre-trib idea in the translation. Before Darby was even conceived. Yet everyone wants to dump on John. When it could have been the amillenial theology of the KJV translators leaking thru. Even if dispensational pre-trib is an error of interpretation, I am always amazed how those that claim to have a total lock on the truth will claim pre-trib is a lie, evil, demonic, etc. That would be saying that those who do see support for a pre-trib position in scripture are intentionally lying to deceive others. They may be in error, but to say they are intentionally lying..... that is making a judgement call that is outside of their pay grade. Why is it that any eschatological position is placed on virtually the same shelf as salvation itself? Some folks will make eschatological positions almost the standard of whether one is a true believer. And, generally, those that elevate eschatology to almost a condition of salvation are tend to be anti pre-trib adherents. It is very rare to hear a pre-tribber go to such lengths to say that the other positions are evil, lies, demonic, from the pit of hell, etc. Which actually makes me think..... that since the pre-trib position catches so much vitriol compared to the other positions, it actually may be the correct one. If indeed the pre-trib position was a total lie, then Satan would be doing everything possible to protect that concept. Yet, dispensational pre-trib eschatology seems to be the minority position in Christianity. And it seems to catch more rancor than even the cults do. While the cults are all growing adherents, dispensational pre-trib is declining in adherents. It would seem that if the key to the end times is deception, then if dispensational pre-trib is a lie and demonic, it should be exploding on the landscape of theology. All leading me to snicker that maybe Shakespeare was on to something in Hamlet that should be applied to the anti pre-trib crowd..... Ye doest protest too much, me thinks. And one thing the dispensational pre-trib idea has going, it is a pretty good evangelist tool. While we can all agree the final tribulation period can be terrible, those that do love the Lord and hold a pre-trib position tend to also have a stronger desire to reach out to others with the Gospel with the intent of not wanting anyone to have to endure the tribulation period. Whereas the other positions seem to suggest that folks can just wait and when things start happening, then turn to the Lord. Causes one to wonder how many souls have been lost to eternity because of that waiting. Pre-trib implies an immanency that suggests now is the time for those who hear the Gospel to respond to it. Boy... it is quite a reach to suggest that the pre-trib is a lie or evil.

Sounds like a old twilight zone episode.

I did forget to mention that there is some scriptural support that these Matthew 27:52-53 saints were taken to the Father. Yeshua was continually referencing the harvest in His discourses. Leviticus 23 gives us the prescription of the details surrounding the harvest. The first fruits of the harvest are waved as a group before the Father. Yeshua was the first fruit of the resurrection, but He was not the first fruits of the harvest. He is the High Priest, not a bundle or a sheaf. On the morning of His resurrection, when Mary saw Him, He told her not to cling/hold/handle Him since He had not yet ascended to the Father. As the High Priest, He would be required to remain ceremonially pure to present the first fruits of the harvest to the Father. We know He was handled and touched later that day, which had to have been after He had delivered those resurrected saints to the Father. Leviticus 23 teaches that there is the first fruits harvest, the main full harvest, and the remaining corners of the field which is the gleanings harvest that occurs over a longer period. These actually seem to correspond to the Matthew 27 resurrection and removal, the future major pre-trib resurrection and removal, and the prolonged resurrection and removal of the GT period saints during that period. One cannot be dogmatic about this match up, but it does exhibit a correlation.

the text doesn't say. Doesn't say they pulled a Lazarus either. But the guys who were early church writers who knew the Apostles and some of their students did write that those resurrected saints were taken to the Father by Yeshua. Dr. Norman Geisler did a major article on it a couple of years ago, complete with quotes from the early church writers on the topic. So since the text is silent, we can only rely on what they said.

Have to throw in one more. The resurrection of the saints of Matthew 27. Many of the early Church writers who knew the apostles or students of them claim that they were taken to the Father by Yeshua.