OldCoot

Well, I will. The first seal seems to match up with being the revealing of the antichrist / false messiah / son of perdition character. The "bow" he has is not defined in the passage. So when one runs into that problem, it is wise to fall back on a concept in Hermeneutics called "expositional constancy" which involves a principle called "the law of first mention". The first mention of a "bow" in scripture is in Genesis 9 where the Lord confirms the covenant He is making with Noah and the earth by setting the "bow" in the clouds. The "bow" is representative of that covenant. Fast forward to Revelation and the rider on the white horse of the first seal has a "bow". It is reasonable and hermeneutically proper to equate that "bow" with being a covenant. And when one combines that with Daniel 9:27 where a covenant is confirmed for one week, and each week in the 70 week prophecy equates to 7 years, then it would seem the 1st seal is what starts the final 7 year period. That doesn't mean the great tribulation is 7 years. Actually, the GT technically begins at the mid point and lasts for 3.5 years / 42 months.

Well it is fun to speculate on this sort of issue. Sometimes it is interesting to see how the enemy views such things. And from the various writings of New Age channelers and such, they claim there will be a removal of many from the earth so that the earth can "cleanse" itself and move to higher vibration. And buried within that view of things, they say that the children will also be removed since they are not able to endure the changes that will occur. It would seem the enemy is quite aware that he needs to explain away the disappearance of a significant number of people. And he has even included explaining away how all the children are missing. I wouldn't just dismiss these things because they are ideas from the enemy. Satan knows as much about the details of what the scripture says than any theologian ever has. He even knew it well enough and could quote it in confrontation with the Messiah. If you watch this video clip from Dr. Mark Eastman, a Christian, he shows quotes and readings from many of these New Age types, Channelers, Extraterrestial adherents, etc and in that video you can see in more detail what I outlined above, including the topic of this thread regarding the children.

Are you then saying I am speaking lies and hypocrisy? Be careful. You are walking on thin ice. I may make mistakes about these things, but lying and hypocrisy implies willful intent to deceive. To make such accusations of others without proof of intent is a violation of the 9th commandment. Now that would qualify as Terrible; Terrible. Very Terrible. I sure hope you are not implying what I seemed to pick up from your response. This is an instance where I hope I am wrong.

I'll have to disagree with your analysis of Galatians 2. Just to make sure I wasn't taking things out of line, always a good thing before letting my fingers wack away on a keyboard, I re-read and the context seems Paul is berating Peter and the others of the circumcision we separating themselves from the Gentiles (a Torah observance) and goes on to say that no one is justified by the works of the Law. Has nothing to do with traditions. Torah observance was never required of gentiles who lived in Israel... before, during, and after Yeshua's coming. It was understood that it is a covenant with the Hebrew people. There were basic legal prescriptions for gentiles living in Hebrew society, but those same gentiles were not accountable to the Torah as the Hebrew people were. The 10 Commandments were basic legal tenets of living in Hebrew society, even as they are in many societies today, and set legal precedence for people dealing with other people. Paul, being a master theologian and master Rabbinical scholar understood this. Peter being a lay person of theological training would flow back and forth. Paul did observe Torah as exampled in Acts 21 by attempting to sacrifice at the Temple for the Nazarite vow. He was accused of telling Jews who lived among gentiles to forsake the Torah, but that was not true. However, as a premier Rabbinical scholar, he understood that those who were not of the Sinai Covenant (gentiles) were not required to observe Torah. The Covenant that is the foundation of the Torah was made with the Hebrew people with Moshe at Sinai. Gentiles, even as believers, were and never have been part of that Sinai Covenant. While all are justified thru Messiah only, that is all the similarity there is. Even the Centurion of Luke 7 was considered a righteous Gentile, but was also not required to be Torah observant as the Hebrews. Yeshua was not going to help heal the Centruion's servant until the Hebrews of that local synagogue pleaded with Yeshua to do so. Gentiles are grafted in and of Abraham because by accepting Yeshua, they have the faith of Abraham. But the Sinai covenant was not made with Abraham. Abraham was never under the Torah covenant that came out of the Sinai Covenant. So while gentiles are justified thru the Hebrew Messiah, that does not make them Hebrews. A cat can have kittens in the oven, but that doesn't make them biscuits.

Well, to some extent. When Peter was around gentiles with Paul, he was not so much Torah observant. That is, until the guys showed up who were promoting adherence to the Torah of the Gentiles, then Peter would cow tow to them and be all observant. And that hypocrisy was pointed out rather virulently by Paul and caused a rift in their relationship for some time. And Paul was a Pharisee and probably the most learned of all the Apostles. He did study under Gamliel, who is even today considered a great sage in Judaism. And Paul took on the Jerusalem Council headed by James, the brother of Yeshua (Jesus), who later ruled that adherence to the Torah by the gentiles was a burden that even their ancestors could not bear. James ruled that the only requirement of the Gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua was that they abstain from blood and meat sacrificed to idols. There was no requirement they follow the Leviticus 11 dietary laws. Rather, they follow the Noahic dietary laws. Genesis 9:3-4 (NKJV) Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Something that doesn't seem to get mentioned is the details of.... 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NKJV) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, The Greek apostasia in that passage, many Greek scholars feel is simply "departure", "the departing", "the departure", "a departure", etc. The text of the 1599 Geneva Bible shows that.... 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. In fact, virtually every English translation prior to the KJV did virtually the same thing. "falling away" did not come into the text until the KJV showed up. Without a direct object of what is being departed from, it is taking commentary license to demand that it be viewed as the "falling away", "departure from the faith", etc. The apostasia only appears twice, and in the other occurrence, Acts 21:21, what is being departed from is mentioned. To impute that the the same meaning of a spiritual departure is in view in 2 Thessalonians is taking unsupported liberty in translation because nothing in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 shows what is being departed from. Apostasia and its equivalent, aphistemi, the uses in many other passages have in view a physical departure over a spiritual departure. For instance Luke 2:37, 4:13, 13:27, Acts 5:37-38, 15:38, 19:9, 22:29, 2 Corinthians 12:8. Thus, it is not outside the bounds to view 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as showing a physical departure must occur before the beast / antichrist / son of perdition comes on the scene since apostasia in that passage stands alone. There are many Greek scholars who concur. When we look at the context laid out.... 2 Thessalonians 2:1 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, The context of the passage is our gathering to the Lord, not a departing from Him. And if 2 Thessalonians 2:3 simply means "departure" then based on the context of verse 1 it would mean a physical departure / removal / rapture...... our gathering to Him. And if that is true, then Paul wrote that the departure / removal / rapture must occur before the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist / beast is revealed. I suppose that even would qualify as pre-wrath.

Missler and Heiser... now that is a couple of guys that really delved into this. Too bad Chuck has passed on, but I can only imagine the conversations he is having now! One has to take in to account, what would be going on that Yahweh felt was so bad that He needed to wipe the slate clean except for 8 people and pairs of animals (7 each of the "clean" animals) and start over. It sure had to be more than just evil. A look at the last 20 centuries would have to rank in the top for atrocities man has done to man. And what would the animals have to do with evil? It seems this genetic mischief extended even into the animal realm. Can anyone say "Tyrannosaurus Rex"? How about Brontosaurus or Velociraptor? And what of the half human half animal paintings and carvings on pieces of antiquity? Virtually every ancient civilization has descriptions of such things. Even the American Indians have carvings and traditions that speak of such things. The cliff dwellings of the Mesa Verde Pueblo, the native American traditions speak of them needing to live in these dwellings to protect them from cannibalistic giants that came out of the ground, but even then they were eventually wiped out by the "six fingers on each hand, six toes on each foot cannibal giants". And many just snicker and view it as the speculations of low intelligence, spiritually immature people. The extra-biblical texts of The Giants, Enoch, etc all speak of the cannibalistic nature of the Nephilim Giants. And there is also textual evidence and traditions in writings of Peru, Bolivia, etc that these Giants were also Sodomites. Compare that to what Yeshua said that end would need to come else there would be no one left alive. The UFO stuff, I think that is just leaks of extra dimensional stuff. Even the major UFO researchers, J. Allen Hynek, Jaques Vallee, etc, have concluded they are inter dimensional occurrences and not beings from other planets or worlds. Imagine when the restraint of the Holy Spirit is removed. I am more convinced than ever before that the majority of the Messianic community has no clue what is going to be unleashed upon this planet. Many just bury their head in the sand and proclaim that there is no such thing. Certainly those that are not in union with the Messiah are in for a tremendous shock and there will be nothing to fall back on for support and protection from this nonsense. Even with all the psychological indoctrination that has gone on in the media, movies, etc. As Bob Dylan sang... there is a slow train coming up around the bend.

The Sethite view rests solely on Matt 22:30 and Mark 12:25 where the angels in heaven do not marry. Well that all sounds neat and tidy, but that myopic view discounts that fallen angelic beings are far more willing to do mischief than angels that remain loyal to Yahweh. They are multi-dimensional creatures that have capabilities that far exceed anything most folks can imagine. And screwing up genetics is probably one of the easier ones. Folks really need to look at what angels, both fallen and not, are capable of in scripture. They are some very powerful entities. One angel alone killed 185,000 of the Assyrian army in one night without breaking a sweat. 2 Kings 19. Singular angels control entire empires, Daniel 10, and angels war with each other over those empires. If it were not for the Holy Spirit restraining the fallen ones, the planet would probably be a wasteland a long time ago. Well, one day the Holy Spirit is going to step aside and allow all hell to come forth upon the earth. And so many are woefully ignorant of even the most basic elements of what fallen angels will unleash once their hands are no longer tied. It seems almost the entire population will follow after the antichrist / false messiah / son of perdition / dragon / beast character and wonder at who can make war with him. Revelation 13:4. The outline of the current war was laid out in Genesis 3:15. The seed of the woman vs the seed of the serpent. This is why the fallen angels corrupted the genetics of humans on the earth which led to the flood. Screw up the genetics and the Messiah cannot come. Simple warfare tactics. And to prevent as many as possible from salvation at the time fo the end, what better way than to screw up their genetics so they are no longer eligible for salvation. Including those of the Hebrew people since it states in Hosea and Matthew that Messiah will not come again until they acknowledge their sin of rejecting Him the first time and petition for His return. And it will happen again. Daniel 2:43 and the final empire on the earth..... "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men". For that passage to have any meaning it implies that what is mingling with the seed of men is something other than the seed of men. The very same thing of Genesis 6. That is why I am convinced that the "mark of the beast" will be a genetic sort of thing that will include a change to the genetics of those who take it and therefore makes them ineligible for salvation. All who take the mark are doomed and not a hint in scripture that they can reverse the decision. Matthew 24:37 (NKJV) But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:21 (NKJV) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be Spooky, nasty, evil stuff for sure.

The Lord said that in the end, the giants would come forth from the earth to accomplish God's wrath upon the world. The primary aspect of the days of Noah. When Yeshua talked about the last days being like the the days of Noah, it involves a lot more than bad people. This is especially brought out in the translation of the Septuagint. Isaiah 13:3 (NETS) It is I who instruct, and I lead them; and it is I who summon them. Mighty ones [giants] come to fulfill my wrath, at the same time rejoicing and reviling. Some argue from the post trib or similar portion that the believers must prepare to go thru the climatic times coming upon the earth. I really don't think folks have any perception of what really is coming upon the earth. I see the idea of UFO, Extraterrestrials, corrupt genetics, Nephilim (giants), etc and even I have to realize that I probably have not even scratched the surface on what is going to unleashed upon this planet. The fear will be so great that, as Yeshua said, men's hearts would fail them. Many folks will literally go into cardiac arrest when they see what is coming upon the earth.

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It is interesting to see how the opposition (those that are deceived by Satan) view what happens to little children when a great "disappearance" will occur when rescue ships come close to the earth to beam out those who are to be protected in the "mother ships" that will circle the earth while the earth undergoes a purging of the bad vibrations and ushers in a new order. Many in the UFO / Channelling / Occult sector have written extensively on this. Follow the quotes that this guy presents from their own writings and he shows where they talk about the children being unaccoutable and will are removed for their protection. Satan's way to explain a mass disappearance of people that will occur. Notice in the context of what is quoted from these occultists by a Christian doctor, they waste no time writing about events that would pertain to a post trib scenario. Satan, it would seem from these writings, is in some sort of pre-trib type or at most a mid trib sort of camp. I don't know, I just show this as an interesting side note to the discussion showing how the enemy perceives what is coming. Satan knows scripture as much as anyone and he is non denominational. He is going to try to explain a lot of stuff away in his attempt to deceive the world during the final climatic period of the tribulation and wrath.

Yes, I would agree that those who make it thru the upheaval of the tribulation period and enter into the millennial kingdom will likely all be believers, but they will have children during the millennial kingdom, and those children will have children, and so on. Towards the end of the millennial kingdom, a major repopulation of the earth will have happened and there will be a major rebellion once again. So while all those who enter into the kingdom probably are believers, there is no supporting evidence that all in the millennial kingdom will be believers and accepting of the rule of Messiah. At least Revelation 20, Psalm 2, etc seem to suggest that. And Revelation 2:26-27 which shows Psalm 2 again. If Messiah and the overcomers are having to rule with a rod of iron during the millennial kingdom, by default that means there will be those who get out of line. And towards the end of that period, there will be enough discontent and rejection of Messiah that when Satan is released, he is able to foment another world wide rebellion against Messiah. Not a pretty picture, but even the kingdom parables of Matthew 13 allude to the same thing. The heart of mortal man is still motivated to sin and rebel against the Messiah.

But what constitutes a "day", "hour", etc depends on the location of the observer. Time is a physical dimension that changes with acceleration, gravity, velocity, etc. We tend to think that time is linear and absolute. Time in a weaker gravitational force runs faster. We can measure that if we have an atomic clock. If we raise the atomic clock 100 meters above the surface of the earth, the frequency will decrease from 10^16th to 10^14th. In terms of velocity, If an astronaut is sent to the nearest star, Alpha Centauri 4.5 light years away, at half the speed of light, when he returns, he will be 2 years younger than his brother. Is Yahweh subject to Gravity? Hardly. He is not. He is outside the domain of time altogether. And that is how he authenticates His message to us, the scripture, by writing history in advance. There is far more to what is going on than we in our 4 dimensional physical existence realize. While it is indeed true that the Lord created in 6 days as measured form His perspective, that doesn't mean that it was what we understand as a 24 hr day from our perspective. Just as has been determined by modern physics that there are actually 10 dimensions to the known universe, the Rabbi Nachmanides in the 1200's determined just from the structure of Genesis 1 that there are 10 dimensions to the created universe. And the wording of the text suggests that more went on than a casual reading supposes. The "let there be light" of day one of V3 followed the earth "became without form and void" in V2. For something to become void, by default it must have initially not been void. Just like for something to become dead it, by default, had to have been living. Within the text it still appears like the 6 days creation as outlined from Genesis 1:3 onward was a creation reboot as a response to something that happened to make the earth "became without form and void" in Genesis 1:2 which followed the "in the beginning" of V1. And there is no way to ascertain the time involved between "in the beginning" and "the earth became without form an void". There is no real conflict. The earth as we know it was created in 6 days.

It becomes a real stretch to assume that the heavens were created, the earth was created, the angles rebelled, and the earth became without form and void and it all got a reboot as part of the first 24 hour day as expounded on in Genesis 1:5. Physicist Gerald Schroeder, in his book "The Science of God" shows that due to the physics in the stretching of space, the dimensionality of time, and other aspects, what would seem to be 13 billion years at the surface of earth would be only 6 days at the edge of the known universe. I am not suggesting that what he states is true, but that if we only look at these things from narrow experience and limitations and not realize that time is a proven physical dimension that literally can change based on acceleration, gravity, the warping and stretching of space, etc, we risk not having a proper perspective on these things. I do believe the creation account from Genesis 1:3 onward was indeed a literal six 24 hour days. But that it also was the reboot from what happened in verses 1 and 2 which we have no ability to ascertain the amount of time those two verses covered. But we do know that at verse 3, "then" ( a point after the time covered in verses 1 and 2) the Lord started the reboot creation process we believe in.

You are combining verse 1 and verse 2 as being one in the same event. How then does the Hebrew ( haya ) at the start of verse 2 state that the earth became void? That becoming / to become / became void, by implication stating that the earth was previously not void? Nothing in the text states or even implies the earth was initially created without form and void. That would impune the character of the Lord by implying He does not create perfectly.

The sequence in Genesis 1:1 is that the heavens and the earth. Since there is a distinction between them, the order in verse 1 implies the foundations of the earth was formed after the Heavens. So it is indeed still plausible that the heavens were created, the angels were created, and the earth was created. The text of Job 38 does not say the morning stars and the sons of God shouted for joy at the foundations of the heavens being laid, only the earth. One would think if they were there, they would also shout for joy over the heavens being formed. So that implies a gap of time between the heavens being laid out and the earth being laid out. And that interval of time could be when the angels were formed. Sometimes it helps to think sequentially like a detective, attorney, or rabbi. Angels, just like humans, are subject to the dimensionality of time. Like humans, they can look backward in time, but they cannot look forward and predict the future. They only know what has been revealed to them just like us. Only the sovereign Lord has that capability of knowing the end from the beginning because He is outside the constraints of time. Angels have limitations within the dimensionality of the created universe. That would imply they were created after the universe (heavens) was created. Even the angel that gave the Revelation to John was given that Revelation from Yeshua Himself. The angel did not know the future events laid out in the Revelation prior to that. Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, And I find it difficult to believe the Lord created the earth without form and void, especially since the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2 claims that the earth "became" without form and void after it was created in Genesis 1:1. The Lord only creates perfection. Something else messes it up. And only evil defiles the perfect creation of God. So evil entered creation at some point between the heavens being created in Gen 1:1, and the earth becoming without form and void in Gen 1:2.

There has been much debate that there is a break between V1 and V2 of Genesis 1. That instead of "the earth was without form and void", the literal of the Hebrew is "the earth became without form and void". Haya Tohu va Bohu. It is debated that the heavens and the earth were created and then the rebellion of Satan and the angels occurred, which left the earth void. Then we have the 6 days of creation we know and are familiar with. It can effectively argued that the angels, being created beings, were created when the Heavens and the earth were created. They have a limited dimensionality just as humans have their own limited dimensionality. The angels must live within the dimensionality of the created universe. But it is obvious that they rebelled at some point before the 6 days of Genesis which is the world we know now. So it is not outside of a reasoned assumption that the Haya (became, to become, etc) without form and void was a result of that rebellion. How long of a period of time was involved between V1 and V2 can only be speculated. And I don't adhere to any singular idea on what that period of time was. On a more humorous note, of all the days in Genesis in which Yahweh was creating the existence we know now, there is one day that He did not declare was "good". The second day, which we consider as Monday. So as a bit of humor, it can be said that Monday was not a good day to Yahweh just like many think that Monday is a bad day of work. So it is ok to think Mondays are the worse day of the week.... even Yahweh did not say it was good. Just a way to lighten things up and try to see a bit of humor in the account. A little levity never hurts. After all, humor is one of His creations also.

I have felt that this impeachment thing would backfire on those pursuing it. It could bring a certain victory for the Trump reelection effort. Many who have been sitting on the fence have had enough of the sore loser nonsense going on.

I see in the original posting that the main focus is on the redeemed and Hebrew people. What of the nations? Matthew 25 and Joel 3 seem to address that. And since the redeemed will be ruling along with Messiah with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-27), why would the redeemed body not be with Him when He returns to have the Hebrew people "pass under the rod" (sounds like a reference to "rod of iron" to me) and separate out the rebels (Ezekiel 20:37-38)? And also when the nations are judged by Messiah as per Matthew 25:31-46 which is expositional commentary from Him regarding Joel 3. And to do these things, the body must be joined with Messiah prior to the two above events starting. I think it is much more simple. When Paul says in 1st letter to the Thessalonians that we will always be with the Lord, I see no reason to see it any other way than taking it for what it literally says. That would be wherever the Messiah is.... in Heaven or on Earth. Why would the head of the body, Messiah, be separate from the Body of Messiah at any time after they are joined as one in the future? The goal is to have the head and the body joined as one. And as one, they will judge both the Hebrew people and the nations. I would agree there is no "two second comings". There is the catching up to meet the Lord in the air and to forever be with Him, which is not a literal "return" or "second coming", and then later there is the actual return of the Lord to the earth to subdue it and rule. It really is just that simple. And the catching up of the redeemed must happen at some period before the Lord returns since, when He does return, He and the body judge the Hebrew people and the nations.

But in that passage.. who is being taken? Not the redeemed but those who are condemned. Context is everything. Matthew 24:38-41 (NASB) For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. the "they" of verse 39 refers to the "they" of verse 38 which is not Noah. Noah already had entered the Ark prior anyone being "taken" in the flood. The context says that those who are taken will be those who are condemned at the time Yeshua sets up shop on earth. Those in Noah's day that were taken were those who were condemned. Noah and his family were not taken. In the latter time, those that will be taken will be those who are condemned also. It ties into Matthew 25 and Joel 3. It is not the same as those who are redeemed that are "caught up" or Harpazo which is a separate event than what Matthew 24 and 25 are laying out. The redeemed were already caught up prior to the nations being judged at the end of the tribulation period and those condemned are "taken" away, leaving those who were not "taken" to enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. Just like Noah and his family repopulated the earth.

The problem I see with some folks is viewing Torah as a rigid set of commandments, like say, the speed limit laws. Torah has its root in yara, which is more close to "teaching" or instruction. And when it comes to the commandments, there are 613. Not all of them apply to everyone. Torah is guidance and instruction. And within it, it teaches us of the Messiah, just as He said.... the Torah is written of Him. One can see that applied even in what Yeshua (Jesus) said when on the cross. He applied the Torah to each and every one of us. When Yeshua on the cross said "Father forgive them for they know to what they do", He was referring to Numbers 35. If a person is guilty of murder, he is executed by the next of kin, the avenger of blood. But If that person is guilty of unintended murder, what we would call manslaughter, he could flee to a city of refuge and be protected from the avenger of blood. He would remain there until the death of the high priest and was free to go. Though we are all guilty of the murder of Yeshua because of our sin, He declared the we are only guilty of manslaughter in that we didn't know what we were doing..... it was unintentional. Therefore to be protected from the Avenger of Blood (the Father) we flee to our city of refuge (the Messiah) and we are forever protected from the wrath of the Father. Yeshua is our High Priest and never will die again, so we are forever protected. This is how the Torah should be viewed. It teaches us of the Messiah. The Torah is freedom when properly applied. When improperly applied, it becomes a weight on our backs that will crush us. This is why Peter at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, and James later affirmed, said what he did regarding the Torah. That putting a set of rigid commandments on people is a burden that even they and their ancestors could not bear. They understood the difference between the Torah being instruction and guidance, teaching of the Messiah, and a rigid set of commandments that gets twisted into a burden on people. It is why David could extol the Torah and talk about how he delighted in the Torah. How the Torah is greater than gold or silver. He didn't see it as rigid set of rules like government regulations.... LAW. He saw it as guidance and instruction of a loving God. But some still see the Torah as a set of rigid conditions.

I just don't care for birthdays, at least mine, because it reminds me I am getting older. Just that simple. I never had any concern for where the practice came from or why. Some like birthdays, some think they are a pain. I never saw the need to dig into it any further. Then there is the argument as to who has the birthday of Yeshua correct. Was it in the Fall around the Feast of Tabernacles or was it in the winter around the feast of Hannukah? I am pretty convinced in my mind when it was, but I don't focus my attention on the actual day to an extreme. But that it is the only birthday that matters, irregardless of who has the correct day.

Different English word, not a different Greek word. Using departure as opposed to falling away. I have as much license to put a different English word that applies to the Greek word as anyone who has done any translation of the text. Again, translators, dictionary writers, and anyone else has no greater authority in the body than anyone else, except the Apostles themselves when it comes to the scripture. I did stay quite focused. That you have problems with grammar and literary style is not my problem. I am not responsible for what others learned or didn't learn in school. The topic is about the pre-trib. You had referred to proof of it happening before the man of sin being revealed. I showed how the the text says it does and how the OT supports that as well in earlier posts. You are just playing the "death by a thousand conditions" methodology along with trying to turn the tables in an attempt to make any opposition look like a rube. Highly disingenuous on your part.

The word apostasia is the noun form of the combination apo and histemi. Aphistemi is the verb form. It is similar to me saying "John went on a run". Run is a noun in that sentence. "See John run." Run is verb in that sentence. Yet both have the equivalent meaning of the exercise of running. Apostasia is only used in the NT twice. In Acts 21:21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3. But Aphistemi is used 15 times in the NT, and in only 3 instances does it mean a spiritual departure. 75% of the time it refers to a physical/spatial/distance departure. Translations of aphistemi highlighted in red, and all these are a literal, physical, spatial departure..... Luke 2:37 (NKJV) and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. Luke 4:13 (NKJV) Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time. Luke 13:27 (NKJV) But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity. Acts 5:38 (NKJV) And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; Acts 12:10 (NKJV) When they were past the first and the second guard posts, they came to the iron gate that leads to the city, which opened to them of its own accord; and they went out and went down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him. Acts 15:38 (NKJV) But Paul insisted that they should not take with them the one who had departed from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work. Acts 19:9 (NKJV) But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 2 Corinthians 12:8 (NKJV) Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And the list goes on, but this makes the point. The vast majority of passages that use the aphistemi verb form of apostasia reflect a physical, spatial departure. It is no different than using the word "run" as a noun or a verb. It can have similar meaning. Aphistemi and Aspostasia, combined for a total of 17 times in the NT, 4 times have an illustration of a spiritual departure and 13 times as a physical, spatial departure. Over 3 to 1 ratio in favor of a physical, spatial departure. Also in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, there is a definite article that suggests that what is being talked about is a singular, one time event expounded by the use of the noun apostasia... "the departure". And the only other use of the noun apostasia, what is being departed from is clearly outlined in the passage. But it 2 Thessalonians 2, it stands alone. Even if one views the passage as "falling away", there has been many departures or "falling away" from the faith over the centuries. Falling away is a not a singular event that one can point to that definitively is a marker to show the next phase is the revealing of the man of sin. There really is no definitive, unique, one time event that one can identify as "the" falling away. And regarding "man of sin", that has the definite article "the" also. "the" man of sin. Not a generic men of sin if one maintains a consistent interpretation in the verse by using "falling away" in a general sense. This is further evidence that the verse is speaking of a one time singular event of the departure. Again, given the context and the examples of the word forms of apostasia and aphistemi used, the reasoned assertion is that it is speaking of the physical departing of the redeemed before the man of sin is revealed. The verse says this will happen first, the man of sin will be revealed. The Greek "kai" in the verse has a meaning of a secondary conjunction. It could very well have been translated as "then" in the passage to more definitively show that the man of sin is revealed after the departure. The "and" usage in KJV, NKJV, and others can have the same intent. For instance, let's say I was speeding and I got a ticket. Obviously, the actual speeding and receiving the ticket were not in the same instance. The LEO does not hand me the ticket while I am speeding. They are separate events joined by "and", but in a 1-2 fashion. One had to happen first before the other did. If the one didn't happen first, then the second one would never have. The very same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The departure will happen first as a singular, definitive, unique event and (then) the man of sin as a singular, definitive, unique individual will be revealed. Nothing wild eyed here. Just using simple grammatical and literary principles to make the case. Paul's letter to the Romans is studied even in secular literary classes in college for its profound structure and style. Paul was a extremely learned man that wrote with a precision that is still being emulated today. I am just applying the same principles in viewing his letters to the Thessalonians.