listener24

Aren't angels created directly in Heaven? "Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

I agree it should be not a Christian belief. (didn't know mormons believe this) Unfortunately, I had the impression that some Christians, without being aware of that, believe in some sentences that logically implies the "necessity" of original sin. So even if they don't state it explicitly, this is what they believe. That's why I used the example of sentence A. If someone believes sentence A, for instance, he implicitly believes B. In the same way there are other sentences that could imply B. So we should be aware of always seeking coherence in what we believe. it is like saying that since I believe that the earth is a sphere, then I also implicitly believe that if I go always in the same direction, I'll arrive back to where I started (and not reaching the "end" of the earth). I can't say that I believe the earth is a sphere, but NOT that if I go in the same direction I'll not arrive back to where I started. Because the first logically implies the second.

Can you tell me what is Scripturally wrong in: We know from Scriptures that God creates angels directly in Heaven. We also know that the corrupted state of the world is due to original sin from Scriptures. We know original sin was a men's decision. Can you tell me what's not Scriptural above?

I agree that A,B that you are mentioning are not Scriptural positions. Just to clarify, they are not mine, and I'm reporting them to discuss. Yet you can easily find them stated often. For instance, some people quote Revelation to affirm that God is waiting "the right number of elects" to born before the other things in Revelation can happen, therefore before coming back.

also, original sin is either "necessary" or "not necessary". Can't be both. Can you tell me in your opinion, which one is Scriptural? Necessary or not necessary in God's plan.

I've heard both from Christians. Can you clarify your position on that specific point? Possibly, in a non-contradictory way (like people who believes in A and B2 at the same time, which are 2 contradictory sentences when taken together)

I've heard some assertions from many siblings in Christ. One of this is like: A - "God can only create new souls in this world, in its current state. He is waiting to reach the right number of souls before coming back." Even if it is not always stated this way, many sentences of some siblings imply this belief. But if we remember that the world is in the current state because of original sin, then A implies: B - original sin was "necessary" to God for creating new souls and reaching the number of souls he wanted. (or necessary for other purposes) An alternative to the above sentences A and B would be: A2: - "God could create souls directly in Heaven or other dimensions, he has no need of the world in its current corrupted state for creating new souls and the only reasons we are here in the world in its corrupted state is original sin, chosen by men." In this case, A2 is compatible with B2 - original sin was NOT necessary, but a mistake. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- So to recap, A is compatible with B, but not with B2, because to state A and B2 makes no logical sense. In the same way, A2 is compatible with B2 but not with B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you think? Are you more oriented on the "necessity" sentences (A,B), or the "mistake" sentences (A2,B2)? Feel free to add alternatives and describe your position with more details!

thanks for the graceful reminder The quote in the picture is amazing as well. Moving nearer to God is always the answer, even when it's hard to see the light.

Hi brakelite! I agree with a lot of things you have written, especially this conclusion. I agree that "unity" is not a goal in itself, and I'm not interested at all in "union of denominations". I think as you said that the union each true Christian should seek is the one with Jesus. I also believe like you that many are and will be deceived in their denominations, if they don't put Christ above all and obey His words, instead of doctrines of men. Let me know if it's not clear that this thread is not about "unity" of denominations at all, it's not even about unity of Christians. Instead, it is about focusing on the most important prayer taught us by Jesus, the Lord's prayer, and understand the clear intention expressed: hastening the Return of Jesus, the Coming of the Kingdom, the Delivery from evil. Few are now aware that we can hasten it, as Peter said in 2Peter 3:12. But some are, indeed if you read the sources in my starting thread there is plenty of articles and Scriptures. If we are not aware of this intention, as millions of Christians today, the Lord's prayer become "vain repetition". If we don't take responsibility of what we ask, if our heart is not pure about the intention, the prayer is just "babbling". This is the topic of the thread. But thanks for your digression on unity, it was still helpful And let me know if I can make the thread starter more clear by improving something.

Thank you @Retrobyter for your detailed explanation of your position! I find it very interesting, I definitely see some truths in it, and I have to recognize that you used many Scriptures. There are also few things I find weird in my opinion. For instance: Let's remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being, who can create and destroy UNIVERSES with a blink of an eye, who can mutate the laws of physics without any effort and create new physics and new universes with the same effort that it takes us to breathe. We are talking about a pre-existent being that can look at universe as we look at a grain of sand, who "saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."(Luke 10:18). And now we are saying that Him, the almighty, needs to "grab" some human beings to make them flying in the air before sending them to a battlefield, to fight a tribal battle like a cavemen idol against other insignificant creatures? I find it exactly like saying that to fight against few ants, the biggest army you can ever imagine needs to "grab" other ants, throw them into the air, then grab them again and put them on the battlefield in this ants' spectacule. Do we remember just how huge is this galaxy? How much power is there in a single star? So much power to make all nuclear arsenals look like a candle? And that is nothing compared to God's power. Would such God need to "fight" with human armies, and maybe horses? I think that we'll laugh that day when we'll see our literal interpretation of Revelation fading at the feet of an omnipotent being who doesn't fight like a cavemen idol, but in a blink of an eye, like an instantaneous thunder, can cast satan an his followers to the Hell. But that's my opinion, I respect yours. I based this opinion on the simplicity of Matthew 24, by thinking that that Day will come like a thunder, and God in a blink of an eye will cast the evil in the eternal hell without needing to put on Bollywood spectacules. As you can imagine, like many respected scholars I take most of Revelation symbolically, as it really seems to be, while I take the Gospel absolutely literally. But I know there are also respected Christians who take Revelation literally, and I respect that. But we'll see that Day, I'm ready to admit that I was wrong if the spectacle you described will happen. And as said before, we don't need to agree on this to pray together "Maranatha". Cause we ask for the end result, not the intermediate events on which we may disagree and that we can't know with certainty. God bless you

Thank you brother! Are you praying like the widow in Luke 18:1-8 our Lord to come? I am! Maranatha

You are right, in Revelation there is not the original "Maranatha", but its meaning: "Come, Jesus Lord!" The original word is only in 1 Corinthians 16:22 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maranatha), and these are the words that Paul uses to conclude his letter. So Paul was the first to conclude a work with that words, before Thomas Ice, PhD. I think we can use the term as a salutation and even opening a thread about it without Thomas Ice suing us God bless you

I thought it was what the Holy Spirit ( PhD? ) says at the end of Revelation, so it was of public domain

Dear brother, your empathy is not to blame, but to appreciate. We all need to keep our own empathy strong. Even if it costs suffering. There are things going on in this world that are sad beyond any imagination. And there have always been, sadly. It's easy to close our eyes. We, as Christians, often forget that we are here because of the original sin. We forget this, and then we say that everything that happens under this sun is decided by God, or some other similar sentences. We forget this because we think we can preach the good novel from our couches, grabbing another beer and forgetting about all the evil going on in the world. Therefore, we CAN'T understand the good novel of the Kingdom. We CAN'T understand Jesus prayer "thy Kingdom come", or the cry of the Spirit "Maranatha". The one who have empathy about things going on like the one you described, he would understand some Word of Jesus: "Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." "But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world." How can His Kingdom be of this world if we are here because of the original sin? Unfortunately, death penalty won't fix that sufferings of the victims. Human authorities needs to put people in jails, so that they won't hurt other people anymore (and we shouldn't rejoice in the penalties, because the penalty won't fix sufferings of the victims. Rejoicing in "vengeance" is a cavemen concept that Jesus wiped out.) But we should just see prison for what it is: a way to prevent other evil to be done. Meanwhile, as Christians, Jesus taught us to pray for another form of justice: the coming of His Kingdom. "Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’ 4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’” 6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” What you can desire and ask for, as a Christian, is the coming of the Kingdom. That will wipe out all the tears, and nothing as bad as what you have described will happen anymore, because all the results of the original sin in this world will be wiped out, and satan will be cast off. "Deliver us from evil". Are we praying for this as Christians, while meanwhile spreading the Gospel? If not, then we should stop to remain shocked by the evil that happens, because we are missing the opportunity Jesus gave us to speed up the end of evil. (2Peter 3:12, Luke 18:1-8, Lord's prayer, Last prayer in the Bible)

Oh I understand now, didn't spot the ambiguity last time. The meaning of the sentence was the latter, like "all-inclusive". But I don't have any strong position on "how" it will happen, i.e. don't have a position on the pre/post/a/multi etc. trib topic. I've analyzed all of them, and all of them have interesting arguments and Scriptures in favor. I don't think is even needed to have a position on that for asking "thy Kingdom come", with the intention and responsibility of actively hastening His coming, because other events like tribulations are things that happens in CORRELATION with Jesus coming, not as CAUSATION. But I think it is needed the intention and understanding and fully responsibility of what we ask, otherwise is vain repetition, it's just babbling. We know from science and elementary logic that correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. So the fact that when He talks about the last days Jesus speak about a tribulation, doesn't mean that it will be tribulation to CAUSE his Coming, but just that there is a correlation of a tribulation happening in the last days, and the Second Coming. What's your position on this?

Completely agree. As it was in early times. Why don't you open a thread on this subject? A thread on making Maranatha Christian official greeting again.

LOL let's close the thread, we have a winner!

Dedicated by an atheist friend of mine:

Just wanted to put an exclamation mark on this post. Brilliant, and should cover the doubt completely, nothing to add.

What do you think about the Sayre's law? "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake."

This is a very good reminder about the consequences of our choices!

Amen, brakelite. I think that the question is more than legit, since the risk to mindlessly use a source or another as a source of truth other than the Word of Christ, being it a person, a group, a website or whatever. It would be like graduating, by always using an "help" at the exams instead of studying by oneself, and even worse because in this case the help may be wrong. Of course, as many other sources, a good use of GQ can be done too, if one keeps in mind what brakelite brilliantly suggested. Never risk to say "that person/organization/church/website is truthful", or "yeah he/she is really a man/woman of God/trusted source, let's believe everything he/she/it says", but always analyze every word of a speech and not who said them, except for the Word of Christ. That way, from time to time we may find ourselves learning a correct interpretation from a child, or an unexpected person. As you mentioned, it takes hard work, but it also saves a lot of time by avoiding deceptions, and it gives the opportunity to the Spirit to blow in us.

You reminded me one verse I forgot above: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Only one who is aware he doesn't see, can wake up: "Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

Yeah not particularly into them either, but this is a masterpiece Hi Annette, you are welcome Loved from when they published it too! Thank you, waiting for you to post one ---------- Btw, don't know about you but "If you can calm the raging sea, You can calm the storm in me " I think is the best comment I've ever heard about Matthew 8:23-27

Wonderful! Music, lyrics and video!