Tigger56

I'm not wanting to debate the trinity but you clearly exclude a "Christian" if they do not accept a doctrine that wasn't fully embraced until the 3rd century. Does that make all the ones that followed Jesus after his death... non christians, or simply the ignorant? I found one definition of another word not used by you... Monarchianism is a Christian theology that emphasizes God as one, in direct contrast to Trinitarianism which defines God as three persons coexisting consubstantially as one in being. Note that it still refers to this as a Christian theology. My point is once again. I am not so quick to judge others as being cults or not Christian. If someone declares their belief in the Son of God, and follow him as they believe, with a difference of doctrines, why are they then non Christian, and why a cult? Another example is heaven... some believe that you go to heaven right when you die, others belief that your spirit goes to heaven but that you are as one asleep and you do not awake until the resurrection when the spirit is joined back to a spiritual body when the trumpet sounds or to a physical body depended upon which resurrection. Would this also make them a non Christian and a cult? I hold my beliefs dear, but I don't want to force them upon others or be quick to declare a brother or sister in Christ as a non-christian simply because of a difference of belief, even if that difference incorporates some of the main doctrines of mainstream Christianity beliefs.

Why isn't the main doctrine... simply the belief in the Lord Jesus. The belief in his life, his death, his teachings, the belief that he is the Son of God. Why must it incorporate all other doctrines? This meaning that there can be a variance of beliefs in what his teachings were. Isn't Jesus the root of it all? Christian... one who follows Christ. Can it be that simple or must there be "main doctrines"? I agree with the Bible mention. Too many liberties have been taken with so many variations of the Bible. I realize that the KJV isn't perfect and has a very added verses and Some words deliberately changed by the translators, but all in all, I have found it to be the most accurate and at least most added or changed things are in italics to show you that it varies from the original Hebrew and Greek.

I see some of your definition includes "Mormons". I tend to agree with you. Glad you don't include OSAS. I agree that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. You did quote the trinity. There are Christians that believe in God the Father and God the Son, but believe the holy spirit is their spirit and power but not an individual God. Would that make them a cult? If so, Why? Just curious. I am just very slow to label things. So I am slow to label "cults", etc... So many use labels as condemnations to make themselves feel more secure. I always use caution in such things. I declare Christ by uplifting, not by attacking. The term "cult" is definitely attacking. Much like what I see in politics.... if your point is valid what can't politicians state it without attacking the individual that disagrees? When it comes to beliefs in the Lord Jesus (which has to be the central belief), then why does water baptism, sprinkling, OSAS, etc... have to be so vehemently defended or attacked or labeled of a "cult"? It is just an open question, you clearly did not state that. I liked the humor of your last sentence. Ahhh... heaven. The Lord did say he was going to prepare a place for us... perhaps he is having many separate rooms built?

Actually they come from a local Methodist college.

Your definition leaves much open. The true gospel of Jesus... according to who's interpretation? Your explanation of personal works indicates that all who don't believe in OSAS is a cult (unless I misunderstand you). You appear to have a very narrow interpretation of who is a Christian. Sorry, just as it appears in your post. Don't mean to misinterpret.

Pretty good definition. Thanks. But I meet some of that criteria.... oops! Such as... mainstream Christianity keeps Sunday and holidays such as Christmas and Easter. I keep the weekly Sabbath and Holy Days and not the quote Christian holidays. But I believe in and worship the Lord God and the Lord Jesus. Can't claim the second one. We are very open about our beliefs and invite people to church on our sign outside the church building, etc... No members are exploited by the leaders ... so we are good there. We are centered around one leader: Jesus... but don't think that is a problem. When someone starts keeping the Sabbath and Holy Days instead of Sunday, etc... many times family members get very upset and ostracize the one trying to keep the Sabbath and quickly refer to our church as a cult. In my area, you can't throw a rock without hitting a Baptist church so our beliefs are very foreign to many around us. So having been called a cult on numerous occasions it is nice to get the definition or explanation as to what people believe it is. Thanks for sharing.

That also sounds like the Muslims, or in one of the criteria the Jewish as they believe Jesus perhaps was a prophet but not the Son of God.

Thanks for sharing this. I found the story to be humorous and does show a good point of the problems sometimes with communication. I remember in college one professor stressing to me the term "semantics". In fact, he wanted to be sure we totally understood and remembered the concept that he discussed the same topic for an entire week. So dealing with different backgrounds and different lifestyles, semantics deals not only with interpretation or misinterpretation of words but also even in how we dress, etc... I was told once that in some cultures that it was polite to belch after a meal to show your approval, this would be considered rude in other cultures. Sometimes "communication" can be a difficult thing. I am amazed sometimes at how people can read the same thing and come away with different ideas of what they just read. I accuse people of not reading my emails thoroughly because of questions sometimes asked, of some things missed. Reading comprehension can be a problem but also perception as you mentioned can be a problem. In emails or online sometime it may appear that you are shouting or showing an attitude when that it isn't the case at all. Sometime in communication I feel people can be as the story of 3 blind men that went to "see" an elephant. One of them grabbed the elephant by the trunk, one pressed against the elephant's side, and one grabbed it's tail. All left with different perspectives. One claimed the elephant was as a large serpent, one said it was like a large wall, and the other that it seemed to be close to a pig. It is all a matter of perspective and if you are truly trying to see the all of the picture instead of having a very narrow perspective... Thanks again for sharing the story.

"Cult"! I have, in my lifetime, heard this term used at various times whenever one believer of one denomination disagreed with the beliefs of another who was of another denomination that perhaps had very different beliefs on certain subjects. I have heard the term "cult" used when the person doesn't understand what another group may believe but feel threatened by the their beliefs. So, if I could, what is your definition of a cult?

I use to have Jw's visit my door quite often. I was always polite and kind to them but would refuse their brochures. Once I told them that I would take their material if they would take some of mine. They refused and I was told that I would have to deliver it to their door just as they were delivering their material to mine. I then asked for their addresses so that I could come and visit them, they refused to give this information. I stated that I would like to talk with one of their ministers. I was told simply that someone else would visit me. A few days later a man and woman came to my home and said they understood I had questions. I told them that I wanted to know why they wouldn't allow me to share my materials at their doors and have an open discussion of our beliefs? The man and woman talked to me for a few minutes more and decided what I was sharing was "too dangerous". They left my home and dusted off their feet. I didn't have another visitor from the JW's for several years.... even though up to that time, I was seeing them at least once a month. I discovered that my home had been quote "banned" and they had been warned not to come to my home. This, of course, didn't bother me but found great humor in this. I don't know a lot about all that the JW's believe, but do have a problem that they can quote "dish it out" but "not take it". I admit that I do admire at least their dedication of attempting to evangelize, as misguided as it is. We have a bible college within 15 miles of us and sometimes young men on bicycles wearing ties will come by (not Jw's) and they are greeted kindly just as I will to the JW's. All people who come to my door with proper intentions are welcomed and invited in, But if the sharing of the gospel is their intention then they best be ready to discuss these beliefs. I noticed Debp that you did label the Jehovah Witnesses as a cult. What is your definition of a cult? I am curious as many times it seems that the term is used very randomly. Perhaps it could come under another subject under this forum and I may proceed with that but what exactly is a cult? Perhaps you can address that under the separate topic.

I believe BS under this topic stands for "Bullheaded Self-righteousness"

I would say that we are to be lights unto the world, and speak if necessary. Some here appear to have the desire to preach to the ones who already believe in the Lord Jesus. Discussion is fine and the sharing of beliefs and new ideas are good. Sharing concepts, intriguing thoughts or challenging questions can be iron sharpening iron. But there is something wrong with the concept that within this forum some feel it necessary to enlighten the rest of us in their own pride. Some become angry, some become so self righteous and puffed up with their own "rightness" that they attempt to browbeat others and desire to have heated debate rather than discussion. I found myself pulled into that when I posted the definition of legalism and still so many will not let it go. They have to quote "win" the argument and can never accept "let's agree to disagree". I am not here to convert others. I have hope that my posts strengthen and help others, not to correct everyone's path. If correction needs to be done, I believe the Lord is quite capable of this. Even today, I noticed another post under theology about legalism and the person made their own definition of what legalism is and probably felt really good about it. I am saddened by these to me arrogant posts and do find myself with Border Cowboy of being about ready to stop.

A number of years ago I was on a spiritual journey and I met two ministers in a coffee shop in Tennessee. They were excited about my spiritual journey and wanted me to explain it to them. While talking together we discussed revival and being spiritual on fire, etc... One man was a pastor of a church in the town and he stated that he would love to get his church to be filled with spiritual zeal. He said his congregation was simply "treading water" and he felt almost insignificant as their pastor since he couldn't get them moving from where they were. My father was traveling with me. I remember him telling this man that revival had to begin within the individual's heart. He told him that it is impossible for a man to get his congregation to be spiritually on fire that it would take God's holy spirit moving in them. He told them that the Lord would stir hearts as we draw closer to his return. I believe in a mighty revival that will happen in this world. I believe the Lord will move in people's hearts and minds to bring them to unified prayer, unified purpose with a unified calling. My friend at this point you need to pray for the unity of spirit within God's people, then and only then will there be a unified desire joined in united prayer. Then there will be a unified desire for the quick return of our Lord. I hope this doesn't discourage you but as men, we must pray and seek. Continue knocking on the door and wait upon the Lord to move.

I agree this has been partially fulfilled. I feel there will be a time of revival and a lot of it will be due to the hard times that lie ahead. Israel means far more than just the nation of Israel today. Israel (all twelve tribes) are scattered throughout the nations. There will be a time of repentance. We see the events on the horizon. As stated many Christians will worship in church and then do things they shouldn't the rest of the week. Many believe in "situational ethics" and do not stand for absolute truths. Many don't even know what truth is. The message of our Lord will go forth and it will be accompanied with miracles. But the original question... when then happens (not if) will you automatically refuse it because it doesn't fit to your set opinions or if it comes from a church other than your own? If you don't believe any of it will happen then the questions don't apply to you.

Obedience is important. The Pharisees were being obedient unto God's law, but they were closed minded to anything else. They knew they were right and had no room for anything else and were defiant to anything that threatened the status quo. As far as "we don't need dreams, visions, etc...." Don't we? Joel is a prophesy and is going to be for mankind. The Lord can speak to us in dreams, visions and in other ways as well such as from the Bible. I am not at the point where I don't need this.

Our Lord Jesus used miracles to confirm his words. But you are correct in faith.... people shouldn't require miracles to have faith, to have faith is to see miracles.

I didn't say adding to the Bible. But you wouldn't believe. That's okay, was curious. I know in scripture I believe we are to test the spirit, we are to see the fruits to know if someone is of God. In Joel when it talks of visions, dreams, and prophesy.... it appears this will come from God and will be far different from God guiding, speaking and leading us individually. The Pharisees had "all the answers" and totally missed the coming of the Messiah. I don't believe we are to simply accept anybody's claim without proving it, but will we even try? Will we be so caught up in our own great knowledge or our doctrinal grids, or absolute surety that something amazing will only happen in our church that we will fail to believe as the Pharisees?

In Joel 2:28 - 29, If this happened somewhere other than your own church? If this happened within a church of different doctrinal beliefs than yours but still believed in Jesus? Is this happened in your lifetime along with other signs... If God started to speak once more through an unknown person to you? Would you believe? I pray Jeremiah 33:3, when you become aware of mighty things.... what would it take for you to believe? What will it take for me to believe? I hope people will truly think about this... what would the barriers be? What would our tests be to see if it is of God? Would we even think about it if it came from a church other than our own? I believe we are in the end time, but when all of it starts and let's say it starts first through one man or one church other than our own ..... would we believe?

I find this verse very interesting. The whole Psalm is beautiful and is of David's repentance after being with Bathsheba. But verse 4 stands out to me because David says it is only against God that he has sinned. He committed adultery and took Bathsheba, an act he could do because he was king. He caused her husband to be killed. He lied and tried to cover his sin. Yet he states he only committed sin against God. Then what did he do against Uriah, Bathsheba's husband? Perhaps we can trespass against another person but can only sin against God as he is the law giver and because he is holy? Perhaps the same Hebrew and Greek words are used for both terms, I haven't done a complete study. But if so, why did the translators translate the words as they did? Many times I have heard leprosy used as a way to describe sin. It is and was a terrible disease but in the Bible when you had leprosy you didn't seek a physician, you sought a priest, for it was something only God could remove.

I do agree. Prayer is powerful, united prayer even more so.

Close enough, I will have to find another guinea pig.

Yes.... my kindness overflows.... however, I have always wondered what locust and honey tastes like.... so maybe you could be the guinea pig for that.....after all neither are white!

Sorry, I don't know the lady you quoted and haven't read the article yet. I believe our society is breeding loneliness. That may seem strange with facebook, twitter, cell phones, and forums like this... but families, neighbors and yes church members aren't as close as they once were. I miss the times of a front porch here in the south. There was a time in our nation when neighbors came by to visit or you visited them and spent time talking. I remember sitting with an elderly gentleman a number of years ago on his front porch and he had his grandchildren playing in the yard. I took a moment and showed a boy how to tie a string around the back legs of a junebug and have it fly over his head like a spinning top. The older gentleman just sat back and smiled and said he hadn't seen that in years. It was just the spending of time in visiting. Our world has gotten too busy, to much noise and too many things to do. It breeds loneliness. I do believe our churches have failed to meet the needs of spiritually strengthening and feeding the community. I feel too many churches have blended too much into society and have failed to maintain the high moral road many need to strengthen them and this also causes a lack of fellowship and bonding which also breeds loneliness.

Ah.... Well, I will give you what I feel is the correct answer. But I won't ask you to eat the banana sandwich. Too much against you truly enjoying it. I'm not sure even eating it in the dark will compensate for all the whiteness of it all! To me the key sentence is the last one: Because I go unto my Father. I believe that this verse is a promise and a prophecy. It was only partially fulfilled within the time of the early church. There is no denying there were mighty miracles at that time. Yet, I believe that the Lord is going to be very Mighty for man as we draw near to his return. There will be a great revival and many will turn their hearts to the Lord. Mankind is going to see mighty things that man has never seen before. We are living in the most exciting times of mankind and so much is going to happen. I pray Jeremiah 33:3 and claim that promise and know I will see it come to fruition. Thanks for reminding me.

Sonshine, you are going to make me bribe YOU. How could you ask such a thing! Now that you have been severely reprimanded.... what do you want? As far as the white banana, white mayonnaise and white bread..... eat it in the dark.