David IoW

Having the mind of Christ 1) Truth and Transparency Search me, God, and know my heart. Test me and know my anxious thoughts. Point out anything in me that offends you, and lead me in the way everlasting. My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart which you love O God and will not despise. So that the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart will be acceptable in your sight; O Lord, my rock and my redeemer. Author’s prayer. Inspired by Psalms 139:23; 51;17 and 19:14. Wow! The magnitude of what I might be on the verge of undertaking is only just beginning to dawn on me. In all my years spent on this planet I can honestly say that I have never heard this topic being brought to my attention at all, let alone as it aught to be, (IMHO) high up there on the list of subjects to be discussed and taught as an essential aspect of the leading of the normal Christian life. I think I have read most of the works of the esteemed Watchman Nee, I think he wrote over 50, and although he has addressed many, if not all the issues addressed herein, I have never observed any of his works specifically addressed to the topic. So the prospect of trying to fill this void is daunting but I have been here before particularly with regard to the composing of the Dark Night, so I am filled with confidence in my Lord and adequately furnished with the faith to complete the mission. The first characteristic which comes to mind is ‘truth’ He is the truth "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14;6). N.B. I am inclined to quote a lot of scripture in pursuit of the said truth, for which I make no apologies.) I think that having the mind of Christ might be, primarily being truthful. After all “you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."(John 8;32) A corollary to this statement might be that if you have no love of the truth then you have no love of Christ. This is a challenge because how can we know what is truth? Truth is based on knowledge so it essential to consider ‘knowledge’; I propose that knowledge is acquired in three ways:- Firstly by empirical or experiential means. I know that I am sitting here typing because I am here doing it. I know that I went shopping yesterday because I went in my car and came back with a load of groceries. I know that I have had a bereavement recently because I was there with my family sharing grief. Secondly by definition, 2+2=4, lead is heavier than air, I am closer to Paris at the moment than anyone in the USA. These are all defined truths and nothing can change them; language, perception and interpretation are irrelevant. Nothing can alter the fact of these examples No amount of abuse, torture or denial can alter the truth of these facts. They are facts and always will be, whatever! The third concept of knowledge is knowledge by consensus, not long ago everyone ‘knew’ that the earth was the centre of the universe, everyone ‘knew’ that men could not travel through space. Everyone ‘knew’ that matter could not be destroyed. Get my point? So far as the human condition is concerned absolute truth can only be ascertained by the first method. What we have experienced becomes our testimony; if we have shared an experience with another person who was not present at, or part of the event then it is not part of their testimony. In many judicial systems this is referred to as hearsay and is inadmissible as evidence. Absolute truth is critical in having the mind of Christ. Part of my testimony is that I endeavour to be transparent, that is not to say that I am inclined to go about waving my dirty laundry in public but where and when it is appropriate I am quite willing to share any of my life, personal or public, with anyone. This becomes very important when counselling folk who are convinced that they are alone in trying to deal with trials and temptations. My willingness to be transparent means that I can share any of my testimony (the absolute truth about myself) and, hopefully help others become overcomers because “They have overcome him by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of the word of their testimony; and they have not loved their life unto death.” (Rev 12:11). N.B. This how important our testimony is!, doctrine achieves nothing, remember the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. Your testimony can only give life if it is absolutely true. “He will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14;7). Having the mind of Christ involves being aware of how vitally important absolute truth and transparency is. Remember that Jeshua was not only conceived by, but is totally the Holy Spirit; this is part of the mystery of the triune Godhead. Anything other than absolute truth is an anathema to Him so He allowed Himself to be transparent even during His trials and when He was anguishing at the prospect of being separated from His Father. (more on this later) I became aware of the dilemmas regarding truth at quite an early age, some of my natural attributes are an academic bent, particularly towards mathematics and systems of reasoned argument. (Argument is a mathematical term which means resolving a problem- nothing to do with violence or fisticuffs!) Logic is one of those systems and relies on absolute truth with which I became particularly fascinated. As I was still unsaved at the time I became engrossed in trying to determine what I could take to be absolutely true and turned to science for the answers. Of course I now know a whole lot better and enjoy the comical aspects of such an ambition. Eventually I married and had a family and developed other interests; I think I might have also realised the futility of such a quest but I learned a lot and had a wonderful time, one of the main benefits being that I learned how to study effectively, such an asset in the pursuit of systematic bible study of which I am a total adherent! Then He had to accept the truth about Himself, as must we! Yes we hopefully know about original sin, salvation through the blood of the Lamb and grace etc.etc. But this thread is to do with the meat of the Word not milk. “Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation” (1 Peter 2;2): “Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.” (Heb 5:13) I hope that if anyone is following this thread they are hungry and thirsting after righteousness so that you will be filled (Matt 5:6) So we shall reconvene about the matter of truth and being honest- starting with ourselves. I should like to refer you back to my prayer at the end of part1. If you can pray that prayer with integrity you will find yourself having the mind of Christ with regard to your own honesty and transparency. Imagine having to go through the early years of your life knowing what your destiny was not only to suffer the physical torture but having to face the prospect of being separated from His Father! Physical and emotional agonies which I, for one, would not dare to contemplate. He totally accepted the truth about Himself- Oh how I love Him!! For those who have gifts and ministries that are not as yet being utilised by God due to awareness on your part of the danger of falling into pride (among other sins) (been there and done that!) or any other hinderences of that sort I should like to refer you back to my prayer at the end of part1 again. It may take some time to get yourself to the place where you are certain that you can pray it with integrity this is serious heavy-duty stuff! For encouragement part of my testimony is that in my spiritually infantile days when I was slurrping milk for all I was worth I was given a challenge. I was full of ambition and selfish intent; I wanted to go out as a missionary, go to Bible College, become an evangelist- the list goes on. Once when I had calmed down a bit and was listening instead of shooting off my mouth Father said to me “If I asked you to become a toilet attendant would you do it?” I knew which toilet He had in mind, it was underground in Waterloo Station in London. It is a huge station but shall we say that the gentlemen’s toilet facilities was the last place on earth that I would have chosen as a place of work! Beloved, it took me over three days of continuous soul and heart searching before I could go back to God and say honestly that I would be willing to forego all that I desired and take the job. Those few days were days of agony and pain. Afterwards at some time the Lord said “Don’t worry you don’t have to go down there I just wanted you to know how much you are willing to sacrifice, if I had sent you down there you would have had an amazing prayer life because your duties would have been minimal and you would have all the time you wanted to spend in prayer.” God wants to use you but you need to have confidence in Him and be sure that you have honestly come to terms with the possibility that He will test you first so that you can be transparent and worthy of being a disciple. Shalom and agapé

Oh dear! All a bit complicated, how about this? God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. As for God, His way is blameless I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. Summary: God’s purpose is to procure a bride for His Son. FULLSTOP. Shalom and agapé

Oh dear! “not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."”Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen." Shalom and agapé

Michael, following some meditation regarding my recent post I am led to follow up with this addendum. Relationships: Particularly at this time of year there is a lot of drivel being cast about proclaiming that Christ has come to bring peace to all men! What is related in Luke's gospel is that (Jeshua came to bring) "peace to men on whom His favour rests" (2:14). Jeshua Himself made it quite clear in Luke 12;51 that He came to divide families! Note also Romans 9:19 "For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." He will make decisions according to His will and purposes, as I have already pointed out. Becoming a disciple and giving up everything includes blood relationships. There are a number of words translated from Greek into 'love', the vital one being agapé, the love of God which is beyond any understanding; another is 'philia' this includes blood (family) relationships and soul ties which are bonds between unrelated individuals which can be just as (or more) powerful such a between brothers in arms or members of a gang. It is a vital consideration of discipleship that these be surrendered to the will of the Father along with everything else. It is my testimony that He will often restore them once they have been sacrificed as was the case with Abram and Issac. But don't count on it else it will not qualify as a sacrifice! Some of these relationships, of both categories, are those that I have referred to in my testimony. Noticing your interest in human behaviour, I share it! The fall, original sin, sins of the fathers being borne by later generations, nature or/and nurture, cognitive bias, the process of decision-making. I love it all motivated by a desire to know what makes me (and consequently other people) tick. And I am convinced that spiritual wisdom in these areas is prerequisite to effective councelling. (N.B. I am not a professional, just a wise, old spiritual man. Shalom and agapé, David

Hello again Michael. Thank you for your response, I shall offer some prayer regarding the starting of another topic; I only do what I see the father doing, anything done in the flesh is filthy rags. Keep track though, I feel that this might well be an incentive via the auspices of the Holy Spirit. I think, to encourage you further with regard to your dilemma? The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2;15) I am certain that both of us are spiritual persons and led by Him, else we would not be here. I prefer to the translation 'assesses and evaluates' to 'judgement', other translators use 'appraises'. Anyway the essenece of it is (IMHO) that we have an obligation to appraise everything, starting with our own behaviour then moving on to the question of 'fruit-bearing' with regard to others. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." (Gal 5;22) N.B. love (agapé) is singular; like an apple is singular but incorporates peel, flesh, juice, pips etc.etc. However there are occasions when we are required to separate ourselves from others with due regard to the overriding principle of agapé, 1 cor chapter 4 for example. From my own testimony, partly shared already with you, even though I considered the behaviour of one of the 'offenders' as treacherous, agapé is, at least on my part, is cardinal. I must re-quote Ephesians 1;11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." And repeat when I asked of the Father what He was teaching me in this circumstance His reply was "I am teaching you about grace!" Shalom and agapé David

This thread appears to be a few years old but as a newbie I am intrigued by some of the posts. Not as bad as some of the other topics/threads I have looked into but I must point out that one important edict laid down in scripture is from Timothy 2:14:- "Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.". Bearing in mind the reminder from James:- "Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." (James 5;20) but remember the letter kills and the Spirit gives life and knowledge and wisdom are gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor 12;8). Back to topic:- The great commission is to make disciples of all nations- not followers! (Mat 28;19). The only scriptural definition of a disciple is in Luke 14;33 "In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.". This is, in essence demanding unconditional surrender to the will of God through Christ, this is dying and being born again! Many will not like it but it is a fact, that is why we have been warned that many call Him Lord, Lord but will not get into the kingdom because they do not do the will of the Father. ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt 7;21) You can only be born again and be filled with the Holy Spirit if you meet the requirements of discipleship. I did not say it Jeshua did! It would appear from Acts (1;22- 2;3) that those who were gathered were the eleven apostles and Matthias, I hope you will allow me the presumption that Matthias was a disciple otherwise he would not be counted among the apostles. This, I have to say, is true discipleship; anything else is as filthy rags and will be consigned to destruction. N.B. Matt 28;19 Yes I am a radical and pleased to be labelled so-just like Jeshua. Shalom and agapé, David

As a newbie on a voyage of discovery within the scope of this koinonia (fellowship), I am perusing a number of threads and am surprised at the lack of responses to the opportunity to contribute to this forum. I say this because I have enjoyed the observations made on other fora (plural of forum?) concerning what is, in essence, concern at the exponential (as it appears to me) degeneration regarding the preaching of the whole gospel in favour of concentrating on the 'tasty'bits. I have abandoned churchianity in favour of koinonia with a few fruit bearing believers. Jeshua told us thar we shall be known by our fruit. "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mat 7;20/21). "But the fruit of the Spirit is love;! joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." (Eph 5;22/23). N.B. the fruit is singular like an apple- it is an apple consisting of skin, core, pips, juice etc.etc. so is it with agapé (love)joy, peace etc. It is my testimony that, following the precept penned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2;15 "The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments". (Judgement might be better translated as 'assess and evaluate' or as in some translations 'appraise') Applying this precept I have concluded that most professing Christianity are not fruit-bearers and it is our obligation as spiritual souls to acknowledge this and to intercede on their behalf. It is the second part of the quote from Matthew that causes me some distress in my Spirit, how often do we hear people calling Jeshua 'Lord' who have no idea what the will of the Father, on a personal level, is? I pray that this might prove a stimulus for further discussion. Shalom and agapé David

I empathise with you brother. "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will." (Eph. 1;11) and "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Ro 8;28). We must understand that Father's plan is perfect and He has a reason for everything and that He deals with each of us at a personal level. Over the years I have experienced the despising and rejection of men which I expect as part of the fellowship of Christ's sufferings. "But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed." (1 Peter 4;13). I propose that this will entail emotional suffering apart from the physical, consider grief for instance. You will probably find that the source of this suffering is someone close, or even near and dear, to you. My testimony involves being suddenly told on a number of occasions by folk who have been ( and still are!) very close and dear to me that they no longer wished to continue in fellowship with me. These were all professing Christians. No reason or explanation was ever given. I have been around a long time and have acquired a few gems of wisdom, (one of my reasons for becoming part of this ministry was to have opportunities to share them) so here goes:- I have learnt that in the midst of any trial to ignore the actual circumstances and personalities involved and enquire of our Father "Father what are you trying to teach me in the midst of these circumstances?" on the basis of the scriptures quoted above. The answer following one heart-rending incident was "I am teaching you about grace!" Another relevant truth is the need to have the mind of Christ,"The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor 2;16) The mind of Christ involves being aware of the Father's will! "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." (John 5;39). It is vital for us to understand what the Father's will is for us as individuals and to act on it. Even if it involves severed relationships. If you would like me to share my thoughts on having the mind of Christ just let me know. Shalom and agapé