Charlie744

Questioning..... I am not sure folks are afraid or not to consider other beliefs. But why would someone who has been transformed by the HOLY SPIRIT HAVE A DESIRE OR NEED TO LOOK ELSEWHERE? I believe the parable of the one who found a pearl and sold all of his possessions and...... I have found, since becoming a true believer, that the Scriptures are not only difficult at times to understand but they are deeper than the ocean. I have found some verses that, on their surface they are relatively "tame" and easily understood...... that is until another is kind enough to offer their interpretation and application.... There isn't enough time in our lives to extract the amount of "gold" in HIS WORDS ..... I have no interest in stop mining for HIS GOLD. There certainly is more than enough fools gold out there....... Just my thoughts, Charlie

At the second resurrection, there will be only two camps: those that have accepted HIS HOLY SPIRIT and those that have not. God will not be taking a survey as to whether you are Hindu, Buddhist, etc., or if you were born in India, China, Russia or even the US (since there are so many here that do not believe). No Jew or Greek only yes or no to the HOLY SPIRIT....... The way I look at it is that God has been quite kind and generous to say the least, HE has given us just two choices - just as it was in the Garden. Man has decided it will need more than these two options; believe in HIM or NOT..... but man himself has elected to create another XXXX ways to be saved. And remember, ALL OF MANKIND WAS ON THE EXACT SAME PAGE AFTER THE FLOOD - ALL 8 BELIEVED..... God never changed or changes so it is man who has moved away from HIM. Just my th0ughts, Charlie

Starwise, I believe that WAS covered in Gen. 2:7 where HE specifically told us the formula for HIS creation / formation of Adam. There are only 2 parts, the earth and the breath of HIS SPIRIT into that formed earth. This was to be a permanent / immortal creature but because of our disobedience, we lost HIS HOLY SPIRIT. Consequently, this is the time when our / HIS HOLY SPIRIT was taken back from us AND we lost our immortality. HE had to remove us from HIS presence and for the next 6,000 years we MUST BE RESTORED WITH HIS HOLY SPIRIT SO WE ONCE AGAIN MAY BE WITH HIM. As God told Adam, "if you eat of this fruit you will surely die". This of course meant we would PHYSICALLY DIE. When our HOLY SPIRIT was lost what remained is everything that is "man" - physical, emotional, reasoning, thinking, etc., but we lost the most important part of HIS creation, HIS HOLY SPIRIT. Now, when we die physically, as the Scriptures tell us, "... we return to dust" - there is nothing else to deal with.... Also, there are a small mountain of verses that tell us the dead (this physical part of us) knows nothing, there is no more love, awareness, pain, c0old, anything under the sun..... we are simply termed to be "as sleep". The ONLY way we are able to return into HIS PRESENCE is for HIM establish HIS PLAN OF SALVATION. This means HE will provide us with the ability (once again, AS WITH ADAM, HE will give us the choice to obey HIM AND BRING IN / ACCEPT THE HOLY SPIRIT into our life. Without our receiving HIS HOLY SPIRIT that was given to man at Pentecost, our sins can not be removed / forgiven. At the resurrection, HE will see us in only one of two ways - with or without HIS HOLY SPIRIT - NO MORE SECOND CHANCES and just like in the Garden, if we have HIS HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US, we can be in HIS PRESENCE. If not, just as in the Garden, we will not be able to be in HIS PRESENCE AND HIS GLORY AND HOLINESS WILL BE LIKE A BURNING FIRE AND WILL DESTROY US. Just my opinion, Charlie FULL CIRCLE!!!!!

John, I believe it says, “RATHER be absent from the body and present with the Lord”.... “the dead know nothing”... and there are many more verses (not parables) that tell us we are as asleep until the resurrection / judgement. Jesus will indeed return as HE left to take those who have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior, Charlie

Just saw this topic and thought I might make a comment..... I believe our disobedience in the Garden made us lose our HOLY SPIRIT which was breathed into Adam at his creation. And consequently, Adam was forced out of Eden and barred from returning. In order for mankind to once again be able / allowed in the presence of God we must be fully restored as HE formed / created us as a "living soul". We do not have the ability to restore ourselves as this "living soul" - no amount of obedience or good works would suffice....... we may be the best human we could possibly be but as the Scriptures say, "there is not one righteous ......, we are like filthy rags". But God does have a Plan of Salvation which will restore us ... If we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and accept / receive HIS HOLY SPIRIT, HE will no longer see our sins. While on earth we will never be "purified", the state we were in the beginning, but because our sins were paid by Jesus HE will again, at the second resurrection, place HIS HOLY SPIRIT within us and we will lose our mortality and take on immortality. The acceptance of HIS HOLY SPIRIT here on earth will bring us back with HIM - full circle..... Just my thoughts, Charlie

Ok, I am not sure if I have lost the interest of RM or not in requesting he might want to take this "slow walk" with me through Daniel - and specifically, attempting to identify the actors, kingdoms, etc., associated with the metal man image. This first image / symbol is absolutely critical (my opinion) in our understanding / interpretation since it "locks in" so much information that will serve us as the "base or standard" to be carried forward when we attempt to interpret the coming symbols and messages in the later chapters of Daniel. Chapter 2 is certainly interesting but we must be able and willing to "bounce" our coming interpretations in later chapters against it. It will keep us on track and prevent us from interpreting difficult verses that we believe has a message that goes against this "base" in chapter 2. This is why is impossible to address, compare, or argue with ALL the interpretations of the book of Daniel (all chapters) and also bring in Revelation, Matthew and Mark and other NT books. So, I have once again copied some of my thoughts / interpretations STRICTLY from chapter 2 and I would ask anyone / everyone to offer their thoughts / findings / interpretations on this metal man image. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, so we certainly agree there are 4 kingdoms and we agree on each with Rome appearing as a beast that can not be compared to any animal on earth because it will indeed be the final kingdom and exist until the end of time. However, as you state, it will be pagan Rome throughout this 2,000 year with the same terrible and worldly evil characteristics but NOT in that name. This beast will take on many names and powers but it represents mankind and their evil practices (it is composed of the previous 3 kingdoms PLUS). Now, I would like to add some things here regarding this metal man image that, in my opinion, causes so many to drive off the track, if you will later in Daniel. Daniel reveals only 4 kingdoms of metal which reveal NO separation between each metal type. He uses this metal image for many reasons but one is to tell us that this 4 metals come together one after another and almost "welding together like" --- God is not giving mankind an opportunity to add or subtract any other power or kingdom between them.... 4 means 4 and they ARE AND MUST STAY UNTIL THE END OF TIME.....and they are the 4 you identified. Further, God has "bracketed" this metal man so we also recognize the beginning and the end. The beginning of course is Babylon and the end is when this "Stone" is hurled down and destroys all of mankind's kingdoms, powers, practices, etc. This metal man image is now a "closed system" if you will; we have the beginning and the end; we have each of the 4 kingdoms between the "brackets" with NO possibility of being added or subtracted between them. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas! Unless I missed it, we are in agreement (too early to comment on church age and Revelation.... just want to study Daniel as though the two of us were doing this around the 1st century AD where we only have the OT on our desk. Now, I believe we might want to carve up these 4 kingdoms by time. We both agree it runs from Babylon to now but we have to try and identify the verses within each kingdom into their respective time slots. Since we agree that pagan Rome is the 4th kingdom after Greece we might want to identify the actors, events and characteristics given us in chapter 2 as best we can BUT JUST GIVEN THE INFORMATION IN CHAPTER 2 ONLY - WE CAN NOT PEAK AHEAD TO 7 OR 8... Do you find: 1) there is no gap between Greece and Rome and Greece, as a kingdom ended with Alexander? Certainly there was a dividing of HIS KINGDOM into 4 territories but they are not represented in the metal man image. 2) pagan Rome is symbolized by the legs of pure iron appropriately since it does reflect their "operating characteristics"; they welded the iron sword in a devastating manner, they had no heart or concern with any other group and they would use those powerful legs to travel the known world conquering any in their path..... totally ruthless and uncaring wherever they walked. 3) we now see the feet and toes change from pure iron to a mixture of iron and clay and, as you mentioned, it represents a breakdown of the pure iron; it is no longer as strong and is breaking apart, developing cracks and being mixed with clay. This clay may symbolize a few different things but I do agree with you that one of the most important is that clay = introduction of man into this metal image. 4) the 10 toes of iron and clay are noticed but at this time we can not identify who or what they are but their symbolism as 10 and toes is very important and must be identified later on. So, without leaving chapter 2 would you mind offering your thoughts on the above - whether you agree or not.... also, please add your findings to this keeping in mind we can not look further than chapter 2. I am not bringing attention to the "Stone" now because we all accept it represents HIS second coming and it is without controversy. Once again, sorry for the slow walk but I have found in my own studies just how easy it is to gloss over what seem like insignificant facts. Look forward to your comments and thoughts, Charlie

Well, hope you have a nice sleep! And thank you for all of your response. RM, there is a tremendous amount of thought, opinion and interpretation provided in your response BUT so much is generated from verses not only outside of chapter 2, but from other books in the NT (Revelation). You have presented your conclusions on Daniel through Revelation and there is no way we can or should be able to unpack that... If we are going to understand where, when and why we begin to depart in our interpretations (not overall conclusions), we need to take complicated verse or a chapter by itself. We need to identify those actors, events and/or message WITHIN JUST THESE SPECIFIC VERSES ONLY. We can not look forward and bring in our conclusions from later verses or books. This way we can identify each layer of interpretation that will form our conclusions. So, if you are willing can you go back to my last post, which is just concerned with chapter 2 and provide your thoughts on what these verses give us? Thank you, Charlie

Yes, if it were so true it would be funny. And thanks for providing this overall summary of Daniel! Ok, so we certainly agree there are 4 kingdoms and we agree on each with Rome appearing as a beast that can not be compared to any animal on earth because it will indeed be the final kingdom and exist until the end of time. However, as you state, it will be pagan Rome throughout this 2,000 year with the same terrible and worldly evil characteristics but NOT in that name. This beast will take on many names and powers but it represents mankind and their evil practices (it is composed of the previous 3 kingdoms PLUS). Now, I would like to add some things here regarding this metal man image that, in my opinion, causes so many to drive off the track, if you will later in Daniel. Daniel reveals only 4 kingdoms of metal which reveal NO separation between each metal type. He uses this metal image for many reasons but one is to tell us that this 4 metals come together one after another and almost "welding together like" --- God is not giving mankind an opportunity to add or subtract any other power or kingdom between them.... 4 means 4 and they ARE AND MUST STAY UNTIL THE END OF TIME.....and they are the 4 you identified. Further, God has "bracketed" this metal man so we also recognize the beginning and the end. The beginning of course is Babylon and the end is when this "Stone" is hurled down and destroys all of mankind's kingdoms, powers, practices, etc. This metal man image is now a "closed system" if you will; we have the beginning and the end; we have each of the 4 kingdoms between the "brackets" with NO possibility of being added or subtracted between them. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas! Unless I missed it, we are in agreement (too early to comment on church age and Revelation.... just want to study Daniel as though the two of us were doing this around the 1st century AD where we only have the OT on our desk. Now, I believe we might want to carve up these 4 kingdoms by time. We both agree it runs from Babylon to now but we have to try and identify the verses within each kingdom into their respective time slots. Since we agree that pagan Rome is the 4th kingdom after Greece we might want to identify the actors, events and characteristics given us in chapter 2 as best we can BUT JUST GIVEN THE INFORMATION IN CHAPTER 2 ONLY - WE CAN NOT PEAK AHEAD TO 7 OR 8... Do you find: 1) there is no gap between Greece and Rome and Greece, as a kingdom ended with Alexander? Certainly there was a dividing of HIS KINGDOM into 4 territories but they are not represented in the metal man image. 2) pagan Rome is symbolized by the legs of pure iron appropriately since it does reflect their "operating characteristics"; they welded the iron sword in a devastating manner, they had no heart or concern with any other group and they would use those powerful legs to travel the known world conquering any in their path..... totally ruthless and uncaring wherever they walked. 3) we now see the feet and toes change from pure iron to a mixture of iron and clay and, as you mentioned, it represents a breakdown of the pure iron; it is no longer as strong and is breaking apart, developing cracks and being mixed with clay. This clay may symbolize a few different things but I do agree with you that one of the most important is that clay = introduction of man into this metal image. 4) the 10 toes of iron and clay are noticed but at this time we can not identify who or what they are but their symbolism as 10 and toes is very important and must be identified later on. So, without leaving chapter 2 would you mind offering your thoughts on the above - whether you agree or not.... also, please add your findings to this keeping in mind we can not look further than chapter 2. I am not bringing attention to the "Stone" now because we all accept it represents HIS second coming and it is without controversy. Once again, sorry for the slow walk but I have found in my own studies just how easy it is to gloss over what seem like insignificant facts. Look forward to your comments and thoughts, Charlie

RM, thank you for all the consideration in preparing this response..... again, there is absolutely no way more than a few folks could generate or duplicate this level of detail...... I will CERTAINLY enjoy reading this and try and ask relevant questions but I would respectfully request that we might take this very slowly where we might be able to easily learn where our interpretations depart. If we simply had a disagreement on 11 that would be one thing and we could jump directly to this verse or that verse and discuss, but I honestly believe this is an "approach" issue that begins in the beginning = that would be chapter 2. Again, if you do not mind, if we take this slowly it should smooth out the demand on us and allow us to learn why we have come to our interpretations on a micro scale. I hope you don't mind, especially since you have obviously done all the heavy lifting in your Daniel study. Just to try and start this....... In Daniel chapter 2, Nebuchadnezzar is given a dream to be interpreted by Daniel. I believe he recognizes 4 kingdoms with each having a different metal covering for their respective parts of the metal man. Without moving on to chapter 7 or 8 where we are given additional information and symbols for those kingdoms, would you mind telling me your interpretations of these kingdoms and of course the feet and toes as well as the Stone that will be hurled down to destroy the entire image. I believe if we have any major differences they will begin in chapter 2. Thank you, Charlie

Thank you so much for taking the time and consideration to respond. Since I have come onto this forum I have seem more than a few folks who are absolutely certain they have the most correct and impressive understanding and interpretations of certain verses....... I believe, unfortunately, I now might have fallen into that category ....... well, I certainly have a foot in the door! But I do agree with you that these very complicated verses and chapters (double emphasise on 11) should be discussed and not forced on anyone. I look forward to hearing from you in the near future should you find the time, best wishes always, Charlie

not an echo, thank you very much for your thoughts... you certainly come across as a patient, knowledgeable student of the Scriptures, and unlike myself, have been at this for some time. First, I am NOT able to address any verses and their interpretations within Revelation as I have not studied this book at this time. Daniel is the first book that I have attempted to read, study and interpret. This was due to many folks recommending that I study Daniel before I attempted Revelation. Despite many comments and opinions (within this forum) to the contrary, Daniel MUST BE INTERPRETED ON ITS OWN. This means that ANY book in the OT is available and in many cases needed to understand Daniel, but absolutely NO NT Scripture is required or allowed. There is more than enough information within the OT and Daniel to properly interpret it. So, I apologize for not being able to address your Revelation to Daniel interpretations but unless and until we truly understand and interpret Daniel correctly there is no reason to compare them to anything. Here is one reason to support this: After studying Daniel (still in process to complete 11), most of today's interpretations have not only misinterpreted some of the most critical verses within Daniel but they have also flung them far into the future and have determined they STILL HAVE NOT OCCURRED.... And this is a good example of a Daniel misinterpretation being "matched" to a Revelation misinterpretation..... and then some / many scholarly views label this as proof of their success - here is my interpretation of Daniel XXXX and see, it fits perfectly with my interpretation of Revelation XXXX - it must be right.... Therefore, it becomes circular and where we find both interpretations are incorrect..... so we can not look to Revelation for confirmation UNLESS DANIEL IS INTERPRETED CORRECTLY. If we find within today's accepted interpretations of Daniel there are timing application issues, gross misinterpretations regarding identification of critical actors within his verses, lack of integrity in continuing the "storyline" within Daniel, an almost complete failure to see the Messiah within these prophetic verses, on and on........ they we can not and should not carry them forward to Revelation or any other book (Matthew and Mark when they reference Daniel). So, I will apologize for not being able to address your Revelation references. Once I complete Daniel I will move on to Revelation which I expect will be at least 1000 X's more difficult than Daniel 11.... Daniel was written for the JEWS FIRST....... the Book of Daniel is one complete and unbelievable story which if followed properly (and we have actual history to confirm this) it tells us the story as follows (this is the road map to stay on course in interpreting Daniel): 1) Jews once again sin against God, are disobedient and commit idolatry. God has given them a billion chances but now He must punish them. This will be a punishment unlike any other to this time; Many Jews will be killed, almost all will be taken captive to Babylon, the city and Temple will be destroyed. It is ALMOST a complete annihilation of HIs people.... 2) They complete their punishment from God for 70 years as prophesied in Jeremiah. (prior to the captivity, Jeremiah hides the ARK and it will never be seen again), 3) God's Plan of restoration: Daniel, although not a High Priest is allowed to pray for forgiveness for the Jews transgression as required by Leviticus (without this prayer, they could and would not be allowed to leave Babylon. This might seem rather unimportant within Daniel but it is meaningful when other chapters are interpreted and we find this is a major reason why Daniel MUST BE KEPT ALIVE BEFORE THEY ARE ALLOWED TO RETURN). The Jews are allowed to return and the "Restoration Process" begins. This "process" contains ALL the components necessary to restore them to their pre-Babylonian state: 1) the city and the building must be restored, 2) the land must be restored to them, 3) the Temple must be re-built, 4) the ARK of the covenant or the HOLINESS within the Temple must be restored, but Jeremiah had hidden the ARK and it will not be found, And all of this must have started after the prayer of forgiveness to God in chapter 9. . So Daniel reveals God's Plan of Restoration where ALL the above will be completed within the 70 weeks or 490 years.... period! Daniel is very specific in that the top 3 above will be completed / fulfilled within the 69 week period or 483 years. All the physical restoration is done and ready for the final and most important part of the restoration - the restoration of the ARK and the HOLY Sanctuary. But this is not possible since Jeremiah hid the ARK and without HIS PRESENCE it is simply a beautiful building. But God will address this as prophesied in Daniel where the "Anointed One" will come forth exactly on the first day of the 70 week when He is baptized by John. We now come to the remaining verses in chapter 9 where we find the 6 requirements the coming Messiah must fulfill - these are the individual missions HE must and will fulfill during the final week of the prophecy.....He will restore God's Presence within the Temple.... He is the ARK of the Covenant. So, from destruction of the Jews and their captivity to Babylon to their restoration in Jerusalem once again we come full circle - all is back to normal in the HOLY City. But of course, the Jews rejected their Messiah, the most important part of the restoration process. He claimed He was the Messiah and was ONE with God and they went absolutely crazy with anger and hate and they could not have found anyone or anything that was more blasphemous than to declare one is God. This was an "abomination" to them and they dealt with HIM as such. This most horrendous act that could not nor will not ever be duplicated is the "cause of their desolation". Once again, the Jews failed and this is right after their restoration. Once again, God would punish them and we find in 70 AD, God would use Titus to completely destroy all that He had allowed to be restored- full circle. If we believe this is the story in Daniel, and for me it is crystal clear, then we MUST interpret the verses in the latter chapters of Daniel accordingly - meaning they speak of this restoration process, the coming Messiah, their rejection and once again their punishment, etc. If we stay with this storyline, I an assure you there is absolutely NO place or space within Daniel's prophetic verses for unimportant characters like AE, or the Ptolemy's or Berenice or their conflicts. They don't have a part in HIS restoration process for the Jews nor HIS Plan of Salvation after the crucifixion. In a another post entitled, "Daniel 11 - the first 6 verses... Can we identify them? found under the Prophecy section, I have solicited everyone's thoughts and opinions on the identity of the actors within those verses. Perhaps you might take a look since this is certainly tied in with.... Thanks, Charlie

I don’t think this verse is meant to be interpreted as they will be enslaved ... Rather God had given Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon power to rule over all including animals, etc., until they themselves will be conquered/subjugated - which of course happened when the 2nd kingdom of Daniel arose, the Medes-Persians. This all happened to fulfill the Scriptures in Daniel chapter 2 - progression of the 4 kingdoms in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Charlie

Thanks for your response. Let me say what first comes to mind after reading your question: I think you MIGHT agree with me when I say that subsequent to the crucifixion, the Temple had absolutely no value, righteousness or purpose for or within God's Plan of Salvation. It and all the ceremonial laws have indeed had fulfilled their purpose.... no more lamb sacrifices since the Messiah IS THE PERFECT SACRIFICE, the Temple was now just a physical building of no more important to God. If that is so, and for me it certainly is, then there is NO MORE HOLY PLACE / TEMPLE where an "abomination" could possibly take place. When Jesus described the abomination of desolation, there was the presupposition of an operating temple in Jerusalem. You can’t have the abomination of desolation without a temple, and it can NOT be just the physical Temple. Now, I assure you some folks may try and argue that a 3rd Temple or even the remaining physical 2nd Temple still could be "interpreted" within this verse but for me, it does not matter what man or those who are committed to construct a 3rd Temple believe... The abomination of desolation is “the object of religious nausea and loathing who has to do with desolation.” “The Semitic expression used in Daniel describes an abomination so detestable it causes the Temple to be abandoned by the people of God and provokes desolation. . . Jesus’ use of this distinctive expression. This definition can not be attached to any Temple other than the restored Temple at the time of the Messiah. Now, without taking a step back, I certainly will acknowledge I have NO understanding of Greek or the translations to English, but I have noticed months earlier there may be at least one possible response to the Greek word "abomination", (but I am not using this as support for my opinion of just want this abomination that causes desolation truly refers to). It goes as follows: Looking at Greek, the masculine tense of the word "standing" adjusts the neutral "abomination;" in other words, this abomination is a man. So, for me, we have the requirement for the "restored Temple" along with the restoration of the Jews, the city and the land which was taken away when the Jews were punished and taken to Babylon. Not only did the Jews HAVE TO ask God for forgiveness but everything had to be restored once again in Jerusalem and be ready for the coming Messiah (and this is what is meant in 11:5, when Daniel gives us his phrase showing us everything is ready and once again complete in preparation for the Messiah - "The king of the south shall grow strong".....99% believe this must be referring to the southern king Ptolemy who would be the strongest general post Alexander....... but this is not a secular reference. It fits perfectly with the pattern of events that had occurred to the Jews: they continued to disobey God, sinned and committed idolatry and were taken captive to Babylon. No Jews, no city, no land and no Temple, AND no asking for forgiveness by the Jews until Daniel 9 when he spoke to God on behalf of the Jews. Now they could return and they did in 3 separate stages or carve out periods with the 3rd period (last week of Daniel) to serve as the restoration of the ARK - the HOLY of HOLIES to be fulfilled by the coming Messiah. So, everything was ready at the end of the 69th week.... and of course, we then see Jesus baptized by John to begin HIS ministry and fulfill HIS 6 requirements presented in Daniel 9. So 11:5 is meant to tell us that "all is ready for the restoration and the coming Messiah" - the KOS is strong once again and ready to receive their Messiah ----- and for me once again, this is a wonderful picture coming together. All the pieces of this puzzle fit perfectly - from their captivity to the coming Messiah, all these verses / pieces of this puzzle are in harmony and paint a consistent story leading up to the most important event EVER. Now if you look at just about all of today's accepted interpretations you might find this "abomination that causes desolation" IS a secular reference - whether it be AE who placed a pig on the Alter or Titus surrounding Jerusalem, etc. According to John Gill, one who is often quoted and reflects today's interpretations: But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,.... The Roman army encompassing Jerusalem, which was an abomination to the Jews, and an "impure sign" of their destruction, as the Syriac and Persic versions render it; and a desolating one to their nation, city, and temple: spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in Daniel 9:27. This clause is omitted in the Vulgate Latin, and was not found by Beza, in two of his copies, and is thought to be transcribed from Matthew: standing where it ought not; round about the city, in the midst of it, and even in the temple: in one of Beza's exemplars it is added, "in the holy place", as in Matthew; So today's interpretation of the "abomination" might be the Roman army, who is "standing where it ought not" ----- surrounding the city? THIS IS WHAT MOST FOLKS ARE ACCEPTING TO BE THE MESSAGE IN MARK AND MATTHEW AND REFERRING TO DANIEL AND THE COMING MESSIAH? NO, I believe the worse act that could ever take place is the rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah and this certainly caused those same things which HAD TO BE RESTORED AFTER THE JEWS WERE TAKEN TO BABYLON TO BE COMPLETELY DESOLATED / DESTROYED..... IT HAS ALL COMPLETED THE CIRCLE AND THERE IS NO PLACE OR PURPOSE TO INTERPRET CHAPTER 11 OR MARK 14 IN A SECULAR MANNER. Now I am not sure about the term "standing where it ought not" - does it mean that from the perspective of the Jews at the time that Jesus had absolutely NO right to claim He was the Messiah and they treated HIM as making the most egregious and most blasphemous claim possible and therefore worthy of being stoned to death under Jewish law, OR, this phrase means that Jesus the Messiah should have been recognized as their Messiah and should never have been treated in such a way.....and should not have been crucified! I will have to give this some real thought and study.... but this does NOT change the message, the complete story from Babylon to the Cross to the destruction of the Jews, the city, the land and the Temple - it is ONE story with all pieces coming together. Throw in some unimportant actors and conflicts such as AE or the Ptolemy's and the integrity of HIS prophetic message / story is corrupted...... If you interpret Daniel 9 and 11 in a secular manner, then you have to stay with Mark and Matthew and some other NT verses as secular and undoubtedly being flung into the far future some 2,000 years after Christ. I ask that you stand back and look at Daniel bringing us one complete and fulfilled prophetic story about the Jews, their falling away, their restoration, the coming Messiah, His rejection, the consequences of this rejection which is the destruction and desolation of all the events God put into place from Babylon .....on.... There is no place for AE, Ptolemy, Berenice, etc., God is interested in HIS people, HIS city, HIS land, HIS Temple and the coming Messiah.....look for HIM in Daniel 9 and 11 and you will also see HIM in Mark and Matthew..... Charlie

RM, to try and continue this discussion and if you might be agreeable, I believe one of the best approaches to understanding the message within Daniel 11 is to go back to the beginning of Daniel. This is where it all starts - Chapter 2 when Nebuchadnezzar is given the image of the metal man and Daniel is given the ability to interpret it..... This image symbolizes the rest of mankind AND how God will introduce HIMSELF to the world through the 4th kingdom and HIS PEOPLE. Consequently, the most important task would be to identify just who are these 4 kingdoms of the metal man. If you want to take this a step at a time and see if and when our interpretations might begin to move apart, that would be great.... but it must start at the beginning not with 11. Thanks, Charlie

Suzan, no one, and I do mean NO ONE has the right to mistreat or disrespect or harm you in ANY way! But that goes on each and every day and will continue to until His second coming. In the meantime you (yes YOU) must believe AND put into practice some things you may never have done in your life: 1) You have obviously found the Lord and have a relationship with Him so I would suggest you start asking Him for MORE of His help BUT you MUST believe AND expect He will !!!!!!! Take advantage of Your God and Savior- He really is looking forward to this... think about it, here is THE Creator, the God of everything, THE ONE who can do ANYTHING... He is just sitting there watching and waiting and He can not believe all these folks over the years are NOT taking advantage of His powers.... Hey, will somebody please give me a challenge here? I’m waiting....... Really, this is all your asking me to do? Hey, I can do LITERALLY ANYTHING... try me... please! That is what may it look like from His point of view... and that is sad! Suzan, go for it... ask Him for EVERYTHING/ANYTHING and if it in His Plans, expect He will do it..... 2) Regarding how we treat each other.... you are the only one that has the ability, authority and power over YOUR life. Only you can turn that power over to someone else- friend, husband, parents, boss, whoever. You must establish both physical and emotional boundaries with ALL the people you encounter and have any type of relationship with... Ot doesn’t have to be loud, or angry or physical or confrontational... just establish the boundaries YOU WILL want and need to continue having a relationship with this person or that person. Some people you will have to severely limit your exposure to because they will not be trusted to handle that kind of a safe and beneficial relationship with... some folks you have a certain relationship with you might be able to get closer with and loosen or reduce those boundaries- and only because they have proven you can trust them with your personal thoughts and feelings. Some people you will allow on your property and tell them to come on in and open the gate. Some you might want to chat with either on the other side of your fence or allow them to enter your gate but chat in your front yard. Some you may even invite up onto your porch and talk with and get to know them better - offer them a drink or something to eat. Some you may even invite inside your home and stay and meet other members of your family. Some you may become much more... whether they become family members or become such close friends they feel like family. For you the gates, your yard, your front door and your home may be entirely open to them because there is a mutual respect, concern and, enjoyable and beneficial relationship with... So YOU have two choices that make and these choices are ALWAYS subject to review and can be changed (by you): 1) YOU establish the kind of boundary for EACH relationship AND, 2) If those boundaries NEED or SHOULD be changed at ANY time in the relationship, THEN YOU CHANGE THEM!!!! I don’t know if you may have been as successful as you may have wanted to with some of your / these relationships, BUT these rules are NEVER too late to implement... especially when you find you are in a situation where you have that “someone” who you have allowed inside your home and he/she is no longer that he/she you want in your home... it is ALWAYS YOUR home and not their property! Sometimes, you have to have them removed from your home, change the locks and close the gate to them ... and pat yourself on your back and move on .... with God with you. Just a thought or two, Charlie

To both echo and RM: From my point of view this topic is abundantly clear! Yet out of 100 people interested in Daniel and Revelation (which I have not touched), perhaps 97 of them might agree with your interpretations on the 70th week. I believe Daniel have us 3 separate breakdowns for the 70 weeks (490 years). This was indeed purposeful because within each of this specific times there would be those events that would take place AND be fulfilled WITHIN their respective time periods ONLY. This allows us to move through this long period and see their fulfillment as milestones and identify what is yet to come and when. The two longest time periods amount to 483 years where the land, the city and the Temple were restored. That is the first 69 weeks of this prophecy. Daniel would them identify 6 fulfillment’s in chapter 9 that must also take place ..... and this is where our focus should be! Those 6 requirements can only be fulfilled in the one remaining week of the 7o weeks. Every one of the 6 will be a fulfillment of the coming Messiah who arrives on the first day of the 70th week. No gaps between these weeks- it is all one prophetic period where God is carving up to have us see those separate events that are necessary to restore HIS people once again. And where the most important component is revealed in this last week! The first two periods addressed the physical needs of the Jews - their land, Jerusalem and of course the Temple. But remember, the first Temple was destroyed AND where Jeremiah hid the ARK (never to be found or placed back into the Temple). So the entire 70 weeks is this restoration process WITH THE MOST IMPORTANT COMPONENT yet to be restored- the missing ARK HAD to be restored but it could ONLY be accomplished by the coming Messiah- HIS presence would complete and fulfill the restoration! That is what Daniel 9 is all about... Daniel was needed to act as a High Priest for God to accept the prayers of forgiveness of the Jews for their transgressions. This started the forgiveness requirements found in Leviticus. Then each of the physical restoration parts would be completed culminating in the restoration of the Holy One (ARK) THE Messiah in the restored Temple. Now we have the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel and where the Messiah MUST fulfill HIS part of the restoration process- those 6 requirements in chapter 9. And HE certainly did fulfill ALL 6 of them even though HE was “cut off” in the “midst of the week” by the crucifixion. The 70 week prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled in time and purpose - no gap theory, and ALL the gross and purposeful misinterpretations promulgated by the RCC in the 1500’s as a necessity to remove them from being identified as the “little horn” of Daniel 7 & 8. Unfortunately, they have been quite successful and after some 500 years their campaign has almost succeeded in making “their interpretations (to counter the Reformation) as gospel- as I mentioned above- maybe some 97 % or so accept this! Look forward to hearing from all - your thoughts and opinions, Charlie

RM, thank you very much for sending this! I can not imagine the knowledge and effort it must have taken to generate this work! But without offending you in ANY way I don’t believe chapter 11 speaks of the individuals and conflicts that took place post Alexander and pre-pagan Rome. If I were to try and sum up that thought it could NEVER be one that could refute your level of work but it would be based on only one point- 11 is a major prophetic chapter in one of the most prophetic books in the Bible. Prophetic not in an historical way where it is reveals those actors within your study but one that speaks / reveals the most important person (Messiah) and the events, both short and long term which focus solely on His Plan of Salvation. The 4th kingdom is where EVERYTHING happens - the beast comes to power (4th kingdom$, the 10 horns previously symbolizes as 10 toes will move on top or become prominent in this 4th kingdom, another “little horn” will emerge that gains power over this 4th kingdom by trying to mirror or assimilate with these 10 horns. He will succeed and then he (man) will dispose of 3 of them in order to gain even more power, authority and control over mankind. These actors and events do not relate to historical man but to the Messianic Man- to the coming Messiah. I don’ believe God is having Daniel write such a prophetic book without revealing His Plan of Salvation- 1st to and for the Jews, and then to and for all mankind. This is why it is so important to try and change the “approach”to interpreting the last 2 chapters of Daniel (along with chapter 9 which has also been completely corrupted by the RCC)- we have HIS last two chapters to see HIS revelation of things to come about HIM - not a few historical folks that happen to live after Alexander (3rd kingdom) and before the coming Messiah (since HE comes in the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome). Chapter 11 IS THE MOST difficult and complicated chapter perhaps in the Bible (have not attempted Revelation which I suspect will surpass 11), but even though I have not completed it, there is NO DOUBT IT MUST BE INTERPRETED IN A MESSIANIC way not a purely historical way NOT focused on God’s Plan of Salvation. Look forward to your thoughts and once again, your work on this is tremendous (but that really doesn’t mean too much since there are so many truly talented academics, theologians, scholars, etc., that would have the same opinion- I am none of the above). So, it is really a different “approach / focus” here regarding 11. Thanks for responding, Charlie

Okay and thanks for responding, Charlie

Diaste, just checking back with you to see if there might be any further thoughts on your part... Charlie

It is very difficult to read between those lines... and if you ever wanted to message me that would be fine. Charlie

Suzan, I don't think we can and should count anything out in these last days. For me, there is absolutely NO question that people have moved so far away from HIM during the past 10 years it is almost frightening. I honestly do feel the Good Lord had given us a brief reprieve in allowing Trump to defeat what I believe to be one of the worst godless human beings on the planet in Hillary Clinton...... but unfortunately, we are now right back onto this very steep and scary downslope. The most important comment I think I could possibly make is that all of this and more will happen but God is ALWAYS IN CONTROL, HE SEES AND KNOWS EVERYTHING AND THERE ARE NO SURPRISES FOR HIM.... HE HAS GOT THIS. He has told us these things must happen and they will but as He said, "I will never leave you not ever".... this is when our faith is tested.... and why He has given us HIS Holy Spirit - without the power of His Holy Spirit, we would have no power to fight..... you are in my prayers, Charlie

Peter, that is certainly truy and an excellent point. This maybe of some help and not new to this community, but perhaps you and Waggles might identify just one verse that speaks the most to your interpretation and then discuss just how you read it and interpret it (without bringing in 300 other verses to support it). Then others will also be able to understand both sides rather easily / quickly and provide their views and how they interpret this same verse...... just saying..... Hope you don't mind, Charlie.......... and regarding MY earlier post...... I will still have to get back to you on my expertise...... just wait for it, Charlie

And I too am an expert on... wait...... wait.... wait for it..... I’m going to have to get back to you on this..... wait.... wait for it...... never mind! Charlie

I believe the "buying and selling" aspect has nothing to do with the actual purchases of goods and services, although I would not put anything past mankind and their need for power and control! I liken this phrase to the parable of the 10 virgins where five of them had no time left to purchase oil for their lamps - oil being the Holy Spirit.... they failed to accept the gift of the Holy Spirit and time had indeed run out and toooooo late, Charlie

As I mentioned earlier, for this new concept / interpretation to be promoted by the Jesuits / RCC, they must address more than just one verse in Daniel. They have: 1) changed the focus of "he" in 9:24 to an AC figure rather than "HE" being the Messiah, 2) many also contend the 7 year period, Daniel's last week, is flung far into the future creating this "gap" theory, 3) others contend the 6 fulfillments were NOT completed by Christ at His first coming, 4) the "midst of the week" refers to some AC figure in the far future rather than it clearly (to me) identifies the crucifixion exactly 3.5 years into the 7 years of Daniel's last week, 5) they contend (somehow) this "he" and not "HE" is going to and ABLE to enter into a covenant with the Jews only to betray them in 3.5 years of this "gapped" 7 year period...... We can look throughout the OT and find how many times God has entered in another "Covenant" not only with the Jews but also man... Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Moses.... GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN ENTER INTO A COVENANT WITH HIS PEOPLE.... Satan or a AC figure is NO covenant maker! The most important covenant entered into by God is the NEW Covenant which is poured out by the Messiah... yet we are not willing to assign this precious covenant to HIS OWN PROPHECIES (AGAIN, thanks to the "little horn", but unfortunately, EACH of us will be held accountable for our beliefs - we will not be able to respond that to God that we were only following the church and your (supposedly) pope / leader of the Christian faith......no, only Jesus is our leader and the prophecies speak about HIM. So, Daniel 9 has indeed been grossly hi-jacked, if you will, in order to gain the power of HIS authority on earth.... they are and have been willing to speak blasphemies against God Himself (chapter 11), and to "think" to change "times and laws"). But you have isolated the Abomination of Desolation as a barrier, if you will, is still causing you a major concern....... and where you site Matthew 24 as a significant obstacle (and this is certainly understandable since this is a very important verse to contend with when discussing Daniel 9 and just who and when it is speaking to and about). So let's take that verse in Matthew and perhaps unpack it in a manner that speaks / is interpreted quite differently than today's accepted view (again, along with all the other misinterpretations of Daniel): Matthew 24:15-16: “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” a) the very first thing I see that conflicts with today's interpretation is "when you see standing in the holy place". Jesus is saying this of course while He is with His Disciples. Meaning this MUST take place BEFORE the 70 AD destruction by Titus. For me, this can only mean one of two time periods: either Jesus is referring to 70 AD where Titus completely destroys everything OR (here is where I place my money) at the time of Christ (and all of this verse must tie together or it will fail). I believe it refers to the time of Christ because AFTER the crucifixion, there IS NO HOLY PLACE -THE TEMPLE MAY STAND PHYSICALLY BUT THERE IS NO LONGER ANYTHING HOLY ABOUT IT AND I DON'T SEE JESUS REFERRING TO IT ANY LONGER AFTER HE BECOMES "THIS TEMPLE THAT WILL BE REBUILT IN 3 DAYS". But this interpretation is incomplete unless all other "pieces" fit together. So, WHO is "standing in the holy place the ABOMINATION THAT CAUSES DESOLATION"? If the holy place is the Temple at the time of the Messiah, then the Messiah is the one who will stand in the Temple..... He will be judged by the Pharisees and thrown out to be crucified OUTSIDE of the Temple at Calvary. His death IS THE ABOMINATION - THE MOST CRUEL, TERRIBLE, UNFATHOMABLE ACT THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.... THERE CAN BE NO GREATER ABOMINATION THAN TO CRUCIFY OUR GOD AND LORD!!! His death and the rejection of Him as their coming Messiah will indeed cause a complete desolation of the Jews, their city and their Temple later on in 70 AD. From this point on there is absolutely NO value or righteousness to be found in the Temple and this is also why it is of no concern to any Christian whether today's Jews contend and attempt to build a 3rd Temple.... Even if they are successful in constructing another Temple, I can assure you that Jesus would not refer to it as a "holy place".... The Temple, the Sanctuary, the High Priests, the Festivals, the Ceremonial laws (NO, NOT THE MORAL LAWS OF MOSES) WERE ALL A TYPE AND SHADOW OF BETTER THINGS TO COME -and Jesus fulfilled each and every one of them. So this is what Jesus is referring to in Daniel. b) another part of the verse in Matthew speaks about "let the reader understand". What does Jesus mean by this? Today's interpretation follows in line with all the other misinterpretations from Daniel 9. They contend it must speak of the readers in a time far in the future when this AC will arise (the "he" not "HE" in Daniel 9). But Jesus is telling HIS Disciples that those who "read" these things.... these things will be written by Matthew prior to the destruction in 70 AD. The killing of their Messiah will indeed cause complete destruction and one must not be in the path of this force (Titus)..... Jews, the City and the Temple will all be destroyed. Jesus does not give them a specific date but this does not take away from HIS prophecy. There are MANY examples of prophetic statements made that did not happen immediately - perfect example of course would be in the Garden when God told Adam "he will surely die".... well, Adam did not die that day (big picture here also). For me, when I started to read and study Daniel, I did what anyone would do... I had great access to all the scholars writings, opinions , commentaries, etc., They had already done the heavy lifting. All I had to do was take my time and try and learn it and take it all in..... and since just about everyone agreed on the major yet very difficult verses in Daniel, it should be relatively easy for me to absorb. Unfortunately, my mind kept telling me these most important verses (especially in Daniel 9 and all chapter 11) did not make sense. They seemed to refuse to be interpreted about the most important event and person in our history - the coming Messiah. And after much reading and thought I discovered (again for myself only), either these verses are speaking of Jesus ....... or the characters found in our history books or this boogeyman that will come at the end of time to make an agreement with the Jews (but where Jesus tells us there is no longer Jew or Greek), in a 3rd Temple (but where Jesus tells us the "Temple" will be rebuilt in 3 days and later on the physical Temple will be destroyed), etc..... So Jesus is referring to HIS crucifixion as THE ABOMINATION and the desolation is indeed is the destruction of the Jews, the Temple and the City BECAUSE they know not the timing of their Messiah. Diaste, this all goes completely against all the currently accepted interpretations.... but I am so good with these.... Charlie