Charlie744

No, that’s not fair! Despite so many that have readily expressed their opinion on this topic with some very strong voice, you are the only one who has responded! And your opinion is always enjoyable to read... This was / is my objective here- to learn what and why folks within this forum think about 11– once again, I would bet that 90% believe 11 speaks of AE or Ptolemy or the conflicts among them in the pre-pagan Rome period. Come on you guys... let’s discuss this!!! Charlie

Thank you! Well, we can think about how or when everything was created, but it is senseless (my opinion). There is absolutely no way we could possibly understand how God created matter, space or time. He simple told us that He spoke everything into existence... He simply had to say “be” and it was ! No need for a Big Bang where things took time moving billions of light years into place. That is our mind trying to understand how it could happen given our limited knowledge and ability. It might be like an ant attempting to consider how things work- never going to happen! God just told everything to “be”. He told Lazarus to come forth or “be” again and he was- that was it, nothing else was needed. He told the sea to “be still”, and it was. No need to wait around for the waves to slow down or calm down- it simply was! There was absolutely nothing that was outside of God and where He was / is. Then, He spoke and immediately, suddenly, completely everything was... including time. Nothing had to grow or travel or move billions of light years to “be” as it is ... He made it “be” and it was, and He gave everything its own characteristics and rules to obey at the same time. In the beginning... means trust me... don’t try to figure this out...I don’t need any scientists, or engineers or whatever! You will never need those things unless you choose to disobey me and you will have to leave me here in this place (Eden). Just my opinion, Charlie

I did not realize you were serious! Rather than talk about time / space / Big Bang / the buggy man / aliens / Santa Claus... you get my point, why don’t you believe in the Bible- especially, “In the beginning, God....”? Now that is something worthy of our time! Charlie

So right! I really don’t understand why folks don’t accept this ... I guess the only possible reason is they do not believe in God! Charlie

Well, it is ALWAYS good to hear from you! First, if you do not mind, can you tell me if you agree / disagree / want to change any of the identities of the 4 kingdoms? Secondly, why do you think Nassar is Actor #1? Your saying these verses in early 11 include no activity until the 20th century? Thank you, this is a nice start, Charlie

Wait a minute or maybe a few seconds, that can’t be- there was no time yet... so if there was a Big Bang (which of course there wasn’t and I hope everyone is being facetious here), it had to occur after time was made ... right? Big Bang could not create “ time”. It is time to put the Big Bang theory to rest... we just don’t have time for it! ? Charlie

Please note below the first 6 verses of Daniel 11 (verse 6 is partial). I believe it is very sage to say that at least 90% or so of those interested in Daniel - theologians, scholars (at least during the past few hundred years until now), almost all of today's evangelists (TV or print), religious professors / bible colleges, etc., and most importantly, just about everyone within this forum believe that chapter 11 is dominated by post Greek kingdom (Alexander) actors and events, at least up to the first 28 or so verses. I am very interested in determining the message behind chapter 11 and I believe it has been grossly misinterpreted; and this is mostly accomplished by having identified the "actors and events" in a worldly or physical manner as opposed to viewing or interpreting them in a more "spiritual" manner - where they are meant to reveal events that will take place AFTER AND WITHIN the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome and NOT between the 3rd and 4th kingdom which I believe may be called the "intertestamental period). I am sure there is enough interest and knowledge within this group where we will receive some tremendous thoughts and opinions. So, there are 11 ITEMS TO ADDRESS: We should confirm or address if these verses fall within their proper kingdom, or not, Then, or at the same time if you prefer, we should identify EACH one of the ACTORS #1 TO #7, Medes and Persian Kingdom (11:1 – 2) 11 “Also in the first year of Darius the Mede, I, even I, stood up to confirm and strengthen him.) 2 And now I will tell you the truth: Behold, three more kings will arise in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than them all; by his strength, through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece Alexander and the Greece Kingdom (11:3) . 3 Then a mighty king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. Greece is broken into 4 territories to be occupied by his generals (11:4) 4 And when he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not among his posterity nor according to his dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom shall be uprooted, even for others besides these. Beginning of Pagan Rome (11:5 – 6) (only identifying up to Actors #7) 5 “Also the king of the South shall become strong, (Actor #1) as well as one of his princes; (Actor #2) and he (Actor #3) shall gain power over him; (Actor 4) and have dominion. His (Actor 5) dominion shall be a great dominion. 6 And at the end of some years they shall join forces, (Actor #6) for the daughter of the king of the South (Actor #7) It might be more production or effective if we are able to take each ACTOR at a time so we can all learn and understand what each of us sees and thinks.... then move to the next. So, it is NOW SABBATH, and this just might be an appropriate topic for discussion! Thanks, Charlie

Great stuff! My interpretation of Daniel 8 through 11 and especially 11, is the battle is for mankind's salvation... That is what the Messiah came to provide. There will ALWAYS be wars and rumors of wars, and this will continue until the end of time... nothing new since the beginning and there is nothing in 11 that speaks to identifying any combatants..... RCC or Christians v Islam or Russia or China v US, etc. There are only two to consider in 11, those that go against God and His Plan and those that obey Him and will have to endure those like the little horn and those that are only concerned with worldly interests. On the religious side (and I don't really like using that word), from HIS point of view, it doesn't matter if one is an atheist, a Buddhist, a Muslim or New Age, etc., they are all in conflict with the One True God. On the secular level, God is not concerned or interested in whether we are Americans, Chinese, Muslims, Jew or Greek; if anyone is of the world they are not with Christ. People, countries, religions, governments, and so on are of no concern for God.... He had come for ALL and ANYONE who believes in Him. That is the battle of conflict for the last 2,000 years and is prophesied in Daniel 11..... but most have continued to interpret 11 right beside our history books. Once again, just my thoughts, Charlie

What part of the country are you living ?

Thank you William. Daniel 11:5 begins with the 4th kingdom and there is nothing in 11 that speaks of AE or the Ptolemy empire, etc. They are not a kingdom and although they do come me after Alexander and pre pagan Rome, they have no standing or relevance in Daniel.... although just about all contend these verses closely match with our history books of the post Alexander timeline. The 10 horns and the little horn come out of the beast - the 10 horns were already “in play”, if you will, prior to pagan Rome and the little horn arose out of this beast (pagan Rome) around 500 AD or so- that is the papacy. Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to disclose the 10 horns at this time nor the 3 that this little horn disposed of... Sorry, but chapter 11 has been grossly misinterpreted- the key to 11 is to identify those who had come to power (pagan Rome) and then the transition to papal Rome. The majority of 11 addresses the actions / activities this little horn will bring upon man and against God —- this is the message of the latter chapters of Daniel. God is not interested in simply reveal to us another history lesson on some very unimportant characters like AE. He is revealing to us those things that will take place over / during the 4th kingdom or the last 2,000 years. Charlie

Sorry William, I am not saying that the rough goat is anyone but Greece- it certainly is Alexander. This is the 3rd kingdom not Rome. Rome (pagan) is the beginning of the 4th kingdom. This is represented by the “beast” in Daniel 7. Also, and I UNDERSTAND that most believe or contend that chapter 11 is post Alexander but it is not . It is all about the transition from pagan to papal Rome and the “little horn” corrupting God’s Plan of Salvation - His Word. The “little horn” will attempt to change times and laws and do those things against the Word of God. This is the real battle- a spiritual battle ending when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked and evil... the stone in chapter 2. So, who is the beast, this 4th kingdom and who is the “little horn” and when do you believe they arrive? Thanks again, Charlie

Thank you William, and I certainly agree that the MAJORITY of folks believe as you do- they contend AE is spoken of in Daniel. But as you know, this is not my opinion! For me the 3rd kingdom is Greece and is appropriately symbolized by the brass belly and thighs. The 4th and final kingdom is of course the legs of iron and on down to the feet / toes. There is no space, if you will between the 3rd and 4th kingdoms. And pagan Rome is the beginning of the 4th. Pagan Rome came out of or from the NW territory of the 4 territories post Alexander. AE and others of that time were not represented by any one of the 4 images/animals in chapters 2, 7 or 8. But you are so right- there is a tremendous amount written about AE but this is because folks have grossly misinterpreted much of Daniel 8, 9 and definitely 11. Most contend 11 speaks very clearly of AE and his conflicts... but they are NOT looking for the Messiah and His Plan of Salvation in Daniel. They keep trying to identify the actors and events through our history books. The 4th kingdom is focused on: 1) the final kingdom on earth that begins with pagan Rome, 2) we have the coming of the Messiah early on and where He completes the 6 requirements of His mission in Daniel 9, 3) His Word and Plan are to be spread to both Jew and Gentiles BUT within a relatively short amount of time the “little horn” comes forward from out of this 4th kingdom and wants to claim to represent God on earth, he can forgive sins, etc. This is the focus and message found on the last chapters of Daniel. It focuses on those individuals and events that will take place over the next 2,000 years (regardless of the name of the power or group that come to power) - those who will believe in Jesus and obey His commandments OR choose another path - one of course is the following of the prophesied “ little horn”. There is a reason why God had Daniel reveal the 4 kingdoms and ALL their characteristics, timing and conquering features... IN 3 SEPARATE ways. Again, I do understand your thoughts on this because it IS the most accepted view... William, who do you believe is the 4th kingdom and who is the “little horn” that comes out of it? And just as important is the TIMING of these two - I expect you might contend they arrive on the scene in the still near future as opposed to them arriving in the time of either pagan or papal Rome... Thanks William, Charlie

Perhaps we can cut this possible answer / responses in haff----- If you believe in the flood, then ALL 8 of the world's survivors were God fearing people. Therefore, Noah, his wife, kids and sons in law ALL saw / witnessed the hand of God. What happened? Some chose to follow / obey the One True God, others went their own way. God took away any and all other possible reasons for man to worship after the flood - they were taught by Noah about God, there was no nature to fall back on - it was all destroyed, etc., it simply comes down to CHOICE - as it was in the beginning! Now, IF one agrees with that, then we might look for reasons why folks turned their own way prior tot he flood..... Adam certainly knew God on a personal level...... but he made his choice .... there doesn't seem to be ANY time on this earth when God was NOT known to mankind...... Just my thoughts, Charlie

Most importantly, if a Big Bang happened at the beginning of the universe does it make a sound? Charlie

I don’t believe there is or was a Big Bang... this is just one , maybe the most accepted view or theory from those who fail to accept the Scriptures, The God who created everything.... There are more than a few verses in Genesis where it is written, “ and God said...” For me it is quite simple, God just spoke everything into existence. “Let there be light” and it was. “Let the water”, and it was. “Let the land”, and it was.... That is it.. God simply called it into existence... that’s His story and He is sticking to it! Charlie

Uber, it is always nice to see a new face enter the forum and as you can see this topic is ONLY 53 pages long -- I suspect we may be only 1/2 finished. But it is a terrific topic and there is always room for another opinion, whichever side of the fence it lays. There are so many talented and knowledgeable folks that have been commenting on this topic and they seem to be quite able to pull up various verses from Scripture and then expound on them - clearly this is not their first rodeo! For me, not so much but this still does not discourage me from offering an opinion. My process on this subject was to first go back as early as possible within the Scriptures (Genesis) and try to define what God has given as His definition of a "soul". I believe this is in Gen.2:7 where God took the dust of the earth and breathed into it and it BECAME a "living soul". A + B = C, and without either A or B there can be no C. If this is the definition, then any and all comments, verses, parables, etc., MUST be interpreted within this definition even when it appears to show or mean otherwise. For me, the "parable" you mentioned above - Abraham's bosom is a good example. There maybe at least two (most likely many more than 2) takeaways from this story -1) it is a true parable speaking about how there is no second opportunity to change one's status after death, or, -2) there are in fact people - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and many more that ARE in fact alive in some fashion being contained or held is some place awaiting the final judgement. The second possibility seems to have a wider acceptance and treat this particular story, not as a parable but a real event. If so, this would seem to contradict the definition of a soul found in 2:7 (if that is in fact agreed with). So, if I may, would you be kind enough to offer your definition of a "soul" and this might be a good start for me to see another's POV.... Thanks, Charlie

I guess we are both locked into our own interpretation. But thanks for the discussion, Charlie

Ok Doug, I had a little time and I reread your comment on the 2300 days. First, if you do not mind I would like to start with the 70 weeks prophecy or the 490 years. As you know there are 3 separate periods carved out of the 490 years: 49 years (7 weeks), 434 years (62 weeks) and the final 7 years (1 week). Each of these sections or periods are identified and represents things that will be fulfilled or completed during their respective times. In chapter 9, Daniel lists 6 requirements that will / must be completed or fulfilled within the last week. They were certainly not addressed in or during the previous two periods or 483 years so they must be accomplished on the last 7 years. My contention is the Messiah fulfilled or completed ALL 6 of them! This was His mission, His part in fulfilling His covenant with Israel (and is as well). He doesn’t do almost, or I complete the rest of this most important covenant in another 2,000 years or so... no! The book of Daniel is written about our Messiah and His Plan of Salvation... However, I would estimate approximately 99% of today’s interpretations fall on your side of the fence - they push the focus of these prophecies away from the Messiah and out some 2,000 years. Now I think we can all agree that the Temple and the ceremonial practices and animal sacrifices, etc., were a “type and shadow” of the coming Messiah. They pointed to Him and as a result of His coming, He became the perfect sacrifice and this would eliminate any further need for this practice. Also, as a result of His coming there would no longer be a need for either a High Priest or a physical Temple. They have been done away with.. And just because today’s Jews (most) continue to reject Jesus as their Messiah AND they still expect Him to come (first time) they still want to construct a 3rd Temple with all the animal sacrifices again and all the Holy vessels, etc. But none of this matters AT ALL! Whether they try and re-do or recreate the old ceremonial system does not have any further meaning to God- The ONLY meaning is that they simply refuse to accept Jesus. How could we have any consideration or place any value on those who have rejected the Messiah and His crucifixion? So regardless of what anyone WANTS to do it (Temple/sacrifice system, etc. ) has absolutely no meaning any longer. Therefore, the 6 requirements can not belong to the end times. Any of these prophecies that have been thrown into the future are misplaced. In order for them to have any credibility it would require having a Temple, or a return of the Jews as was in the time of Christ (but there is no Jew or Greek... ), there would have to be a need for an end times covenant with the Jews... but that is all wrong ! Jesus accomplished all that was spoken of Him in Daniel and other Scriptures! There is nothing He left on the table! It is now up to EACH of us to accept the Cross and His resurrection and obey His commandments... He did His part of the final covenant! So, if the 6 things were not fulfilled in the first 69 weeks of Daniel and they don’t belong or have a meaning or purpose in the end times, they must belong and have meaning in the last 7 years! As you mentioned the Messiah would come and take away the daily sacrifice (ceremonial system). He would serve as the perfect and final sacrifice. This had to be accomplished in the last week of the 70 weeks! This means that there would be 7 final Passover’s within the last week. At the end of these Passover’s- no more sacrifices but unfortunately, Jesus, as predicted in Daniel, would be “cut off” in “the midst of the week”! To me, this is crystal clear how it speaks to our Messiah and what actually happened to Him. If we add up the number of days from the very first day of the last week (which happens to be the day He was baptized in the Jordan) until the day of the last Passover within the last week of the 70 week prophecy, we will arrive be at exactly 2,340 days! Meaning their will be no more sacrifices after this final Passover. As you know, for a Passover to occur WITHIN the Laws of Leviticus, not only must the Temple be declared clean but the High Priest must be declared clean! In this last week the Messiah will serve as our High Priest- But He would ALWAYS obey the Laws and even though He never sinned, He would follow His Fathers laws. Consequently, the very first thing Jesus did AFTER His baptism was to immediately go into the desert to be tempted by the devil. And of course He succeeded and then He fulfilled Leviticus and was now “cleansed”. He spent 40 days in the desert and these 40 days (not yet cleansed) could not be counted within the 7 Passover ceremonies. Therefore, the 2,340 total days from His baptism to the last Passover LESS the cleansing in the desert of 40 days gives us 2,300 days. Unfortunately, He was cut off in the midst of the 7 years and He was on earth for only 4 of the 7 Passover’s. However, as mentioned, He predicted His crucifixion in Daniel and Jeremiah and on the cross He said these two things which I believe speak to this issue: He said, “forgive them for they know not what they do”, meaning He came to forgive ALL sins and this through the last 7 Passover’s, and, He said, “it is finished”, meaning that despite His crucifixion and not able to complete all 7 Passover’s for the forgiveness of sins, He still declared FOR US that He indeed finished His mission and all 6 requirements in Daniel 9. If we look for Jesus in Daniel we will find Him! But I believe many verses in Daniel are purposely hidden until we are near the end times- and this also ties into the verses in Daniel speaking about knowledge increasing and made known near the end times. Please let me know your thoughts.. Charlie

Thanks Doug... This is NOT your fault but since I have witnessed many topics and responses within this site it is ALWAYS going to take multiple paths away from the beginning topic... In a relatively short period of time we have already opened at least 10 new subtopics... and a few books at least. Again, your response to the 2300 days is thrown out to Revelation... along with the other interpretations mentioned earlier. They all belong to the Messiah and His first coming not some AC.. God is not providing us with prophecies about an AC..he is not given any “ink” in His prophecies in Daniel. He is interested in revealing Himself to us! 1) 9:27 - people ascribe “he” to some AC figure out into the future so the little horn is no longer tied to the RCC, 2) chapter 9 provides us with 6 fulfillment’s of the coming Messiah ... the most important event in mankind’s history and we refuse to recognize what He has come for and what He accomplished by His crucifixion and resurrection... This I don’t understand!!! 3) there is ONLY One who can make a covenant with Israel- this happens to be the last of the covenants made by God (not some mythical AC). The Messiah entered into this final covenant in the last week of the 70 weeks. All 6 requirements were fulfilled in the last week.. despite His crucifixion He fulfilled all of them and on the cross He told us “It is finished”! 4) what was the purpose behind the prophecy of the 2300 days? Why doesn’t this speak to the Messiah? It does! It is not an end time prophecy! Jesus has already done what He came to do! Daniel is telling us when, who, why, what and how the Messiah would establish His last covenant with us! Except for sending us His Holy Spirit on Pentecost He has done everything He intended to do to save us.. we just don’t want to or know how to view Daniel.. but I assure you, the little horn is certainly guilty of creating and promoting these horrible misinterpretations- away from the Messiah to save themselves from being labeled (rightfully so) as the little horn, So, we have indeed went off the topic.. and we can certainly discuss ALL of these interesting verses in Daniel, but I would like to get back to the 4th kingdom—- who is this beast of the 4th kingdom in Daniel 2 & 7? If you want to first complete the 2300 days .. no problem but you might tell me what is it’s purpose or meaning for God to have Daniel include it in His prophecies (hint: it HAS to speak about the Messiah)! thanks again, Charlie

I am trying to remember that there are two times in Daniel where he is told he will be made to understand the vision- I think it is in 8(?) and 12 (?). The earlier refers to those events that will occur when the Messiah comes and in 12 the subject is for the end times... I have to go back and look at these two again- been awhile. Daniel 9 certainly is the required prayer he gives to God for His mercy on the Jewish people who disobeyed Him. The punishment would or could not be accepted without this prayer (Leviticus). Daniel is acting as the high priest and speaking this pray for Jews. I will get back to you on the “vision” issue. In the meantime what, why, how do you understand the 2300 days and it’s application? Thank you, Charlie

No, the vision is about the 70 weeks prophecy- all that the Messiah must fulfill and complete during the vision given Daniel. The 2300 days is ALL about the Messiah! People again throw this into the future with all the rest of the difficult verses in Daniel - they just became a very bad set of interpretations thrown into Revelation instead of them speaking to us about the then coming Messiah. What is your interpretation of the 2300 days and why / what period does it speak to? Charlie

Doug, I believe that your interpretation is certainly in keeping with the current majority view of today... Without responding at this time I will simply say that Daniel ALONE s writing about the Messiah and NOT some AC figure that is thrown into the future and also with this RCC counter reformation theory includes an this 7 last years and this covenant supposedly entered into by this AC.. Daniel is writing about Jesus. Around the 1500’s the RCC had the Jesuits construct a new interpretation using Daniel to ensure they (papacy) would no longer be viewed as the little horn (that was the consensus), they had to throw this little horn in the future to get this “off their back”. They succeeded wildly by asserting the “he” in 9:27 is the AC, this AC will arrive in the final week of the 70 weeks sometime in the distant future and then he will make a covenant with Israel in the midst of the 7 years! This is ALL RCC and also a perfect example of them being the little horn!!!! Again, Daniel is ALL about the Messiah... I will be back in touch with you and by the way, this is exactly why I NEED to have folks discuss Daniel WITHOUT Revelation... these misinterpretations corrupt Revelation. Charlie

So sorry Doug, I meant 9:27 but I believe you realized that anyway.....and thanks! So you do not find "he" as the AC who will make some covenant in the midst of the last week of the 70 weeks... correct? And while we are here, why don't you believe that the Messiah did not complete all 6 of these requirements? I believe He certainly did! Also, why do you (and most others I should say) contend the last week in Daniel's last week did not continue right after the 69th week? The Messiah arrived and was baptized exactly on the first day of the 70th week - He was crucified in the midst of that last week 3.5 years into the last week. Daniel 9 speaks about the Messiah and His Mission =why He came and what He had to accomplish before He returned to the Father. He did complete everything He revealed in Daniel and other books..... look forward to hearing back from you and the reason I am asking these questions is that they tie directly to the prophecies, actors and events in Daniel = chapters 9 to 12. Charlie

Doug, if you do not mind would you please tell me who Daniel is speaking about in 9:24? Is “he” He or a he? Thank you, Charlie

Thanks William But I have to disagree here. All 3 images, 2,7 & 8 are related and provide us with a progression between each kingdom and further characteristics for each kingdom as it moves through Daniel. AE is nothing more than a thug, a wannabe king who happens to come on the scene after a truly great king, Alexander passed on. He had nothing to add to Greece or the coming Roman Empire. He and others like Ptolemy were attempting to gain power over others after Alexander- between the last two kingdoms. He certainly mistreated the Jews and others and he was from one of the 4 territories but he amounted to a relatively unimportant military figure. Daniel 7 is primarily focused on the 4 kingdoms, while Daniel 8 focuses on the Kings or ruling power. Same entity in both but different focus. We all know the Lord is King of Kings and Lord of Lords but this little horn coming out of the beast in 7 is the same as the ruler / power (self proclaimed king if you will) in 8. The 4th kingdom in 7 is clearly pagan Rome and out FROM it will ARISE the 10 horns and then the little horn. Then in Daniel 8 the symbols focus on the king or power or ruler only and this is the same little horn. The most important point here is that Daniel is moving from the purely physical kingdoms to the last kingdom that will BRING FORTH a king / power that will attempt to go against Hod Himself. This is the most important message in later chapters of Daniel- the 4th kingdom and the coming little horn is all about this power corrupting His Plan of Salvation. There will ALWAYS be wars and conflicts among men- ALWAYS, but the last few chapters of Daniel reveals the true conflict- those powers that ARISE out of the final kingdom that desire to be worshipped like God.. the little horn (papacy) declares he (pope) is God on earth, forgive sins, must be a RC to be saved- on and on! God is having Daniel show us the progression from man’s ruling kingdoms (first 3 without God) and then within the final kingdom we have His first coming, He provided us with His Plan of Salvation and also He reveals those powers / rulers that are against His Plan. In the last few chapters of Daniel we should no longer interpret the verses as we have been doing- matching or trying to identify actors like AE or others from our history books! He is giving us milk in the early chapters and meat in the last chapters - they are ALL about Him! PS. EVERYONE thinks they have largely been successful in matching AE or the Ptolemy ‘s and their respective conflicts to the verses in chapter 11. In reality, chapter 11 is a tremendous summary of the events that take place after the crucifixion and reveal what will and has indeed taken place to corrupt His Plan.. Remember, this book was not written to be a simple history book where we marvel at how God can see into the future... That has been done and so much more in the Scriptures before Daniel was written... this book is meant to reveal mankind running the world and treating others without the presence, acknowledgement and obedience and worship of God (first 3 kingdoms). But the 4th kingdom is where God enters the world and reveals Himself. Daniel is symbolic of the Jews where he attempts to introduce the One True God to the Gentile world (first 3 kingdoms) but is not accepted- despite ALL the miracles they themselves witnessed. It is necessary for God to come down Himself within this 4th kingdom. He allows Daniel to reveal His coming, His crucifixion, His Plan and those things (actors and events) that will arise over the following 2,000 years that will go against Him. We have the beast representing the world- all coming powers even more ferocious than any of the individual previous 3 kingdoms. It is not important they are named or identified- they ALL will try and conquer and kill and destroy in whatever new killing method of its time. So with the little horn who also does not have to be named- the papacy will have many popes and will also try and conquer in whatever methods available at their time.... but this power is a focusing not on worldly goods and services but on the authority over man’s beliefs, their worship, their souls. This is what Daniel is trying to reveal to us as he moves from chapter 1 to 12.... from the physical to the spiritual wars and conflicts. We continue to turn Daniel into a almost 12 chapter history book. How can we possibly see His revelation when we can not identify the beast as pagan Rome and the little horn as the papacy... So once again, if anyone is interested in discussing each of the 3 separately without Revelation that would be great... Is the 4th kingdom or the “beast” pagan Rome? If not, why not and we can discuss! Charlie