tatwo

Greetings @Vine Abider... Is this that you speak of...here today in your opinion? Tatwo...:)

Bro...you could put together a fantastic "forum and OP" on this subject...I know it! May God's favor continue to strengthen you Marathoner...you are an inspiration! Tatwo...:)

"what if falling church numbers is a good thing?" Well that is a matter of perspective...@Ghostdog...most won't even realize it and few actually care, for reasons they believe are just. Some do it to escape the pure foolery that their church has become as it tries to attain relevance in their culture. Other's...those who are looking for the "Body of Christ" and they will find it...they must leave...they are being "called out." A large portion of "Christianity" as a whole...referencing the entire "denominational empire"...sees this as something that happens to "the others"...the heretics, rebellious, unbelieving...largely after "they" are "gone?" Perhaps an accurate definition of "church" may be in order here? On top of that...Paul made it prophetically clear that some element of this "must" happen...so it will happen...and it is happening and will continue yet for a while. I am referencing the "falling away"...the "departure." For some...it will be like the Jews who departed from the law and Moses...which had become "anáthema"...and came to Yahshua Christ. "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?" 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-5 NASB This could be an eye opening discussion? Tatwo...:)

Greetings to the house! Curiously...it seems like you @Vine Abider answered the question of the title of this forum as "yes" and then sort of backed off that statement? Perhaps it is just the way I am reading it...no worries. I however will answer it this way...No...the Lord Yahshua Christ “did not” come “just” to go to the cross. As for the “What was He after ultimately?” As Brother @Cntrysner stated in his post on page 3 of this forum...” I would say, to make man in His image...Gen_1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:” is likely a more revealing place to start this inquiry than at the cross...right? Considering that the “cross” as invaluable as it was/is...that is not the “beginning of His” journey. This discussion will not be had in its fullness if we limit it to this our understanding of “creation” and the “temporal reality” that is here...this was never merely a “flesh and blood” issue. Yahshua existed long before He robed Himself in the flesh of a man...He is eternal. That then always makes a number of believers uneasy. It would seem that Isaiah framed this truth in this manner...in chapter 9 verse 6...“For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” So...prior to being...a “child who is born” and becoming a “Son that is given”...He exists as the “Mighty God” and the “Everlasting Father” upon whose shoulders the “government of God in creation” will rest...He is. And...because He is! He is alive...living an active...sharper than a two edged sword...so...we must inquire of Him directly...yes? This is how He will reveal...His...reasons and purposes for Him putting creation in place to begin with...as the foremost consideration in this discussion. Consider something Paul touches on in Colossians 1, speaking of Yahshua Christ...“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.” So then...with Yahshua established in this discussion as the “creator” who “is before all things” as stated by Paul...and given the fact that “All things were created through Him and for Him”...understanding “His purpose”...for establishing creation within His eternal self...becomes paramount in answering @Vine Abiders question of...“What was He after ultimately?” The Father of creation takes the first 5 days to establish an abundant plush “creation” to support what He will do on the 6th day...create Adam His first Son...the first living soul...and put him on the earth in the garden...to rule. The scripture that Cntrysner brought up...which I referenced earlier...helps us to understand God’s purpose. Genesis 1:26-27...“Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” This is likely a much better place to start...than the cross...to explore the important questions...“Did Christ come to just go to the Cross?”...and...“What was He after ultimately?” I read the forum a couple of times...save a mention or two of the “eternal pre-creation Christ” much of the discussion bounces around in the “temporal realm” with some connection to the Holy Spirit on the earth in man. What the Lord Yahshua Christ was/is after has its roots in the eternal...one must begin this journey there. Tatwo...:)

Greetings @biblelesson... I would agree with that...however the Holy Spirit filled Sons of God are not merely human. They are a “new being” like no other in creation...they embody the eternal “Royal Priesthood” of the New Covenant. They are eternal and that have the mind of Christ to boot. They can and do understand Ezekiel 1:17-20...that’s not the problem as you suggest...no. The problem is that if I were to attempt to “deconstruct” passages like Ezekiel 1:17-20...most of the people who would read it are of the same opinion as you biblelesson...which is..."no human can understand the passages...especially not you." This undermines their faith to begin with...simply because of the “doubt and unbelief” that anyone can know these things. If someone does interpret them...that causes pride to assault those who do not believe...because they never knew it...it makes people feel ignorant...and they are...but that is understandable...spiritual truths like this must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. On top of that it is a "mystery hidden in God for long ages past" and they are time sensitive I'll grant that...but that time has come. Why would anything written in the scriptures be completely out of reach to the mind of Christ...in His Sons...outside of timeing...as you seem to be saying? There are those who are called by the Lord and gifted to interpret these passages and have...apparently you and many others don’t actually know anyone who can. It requires “revelation” directly from the Lord Yahshua Christ so an opinion will not suffice to reveal the mystery. The revelation from the Lord concerning these "heavenly creatures" comes from the scriptures themselves...and...because of it's eternal character and nature...it will consume most of modern evangelical Christianity's doctrines with the fire of the "Word." We know they won't tolerate that type of thing. Tatwo...:)

Greetings @Figure of eighty... I am going to assume that you are a child of God in my response, since I do not know better. Take stock in what you have posted here...are you being honest? It’s not that I think otherwise...it’s just a place to start...often times in troublesome situations our emotions cause us to “over think, over state, over play or over react” to the issues. I am not suggesting that you are...only offering a “next step of remediation” beginning with your thought process. Now...perhaps you can look back at the “pathway” into the “current situation” as you see it. I know that can be difficult...what you are looking for is the thought process that guided your emotions, actions and words on the journey to where you are...in other words...whats the condition of your condition” and why? Consider any potential impact upon the others around you...do this in the light of why you are there and whose place is it? Look for places where perhaps you were offended and you may have responded in an offensive manner...reason is...you may have “ruffled some feathers” or stirred up another’s emotions. Did you confront the others in love and understanding...for example? You’re looking at why relationships are toxic for you in your hour of need. Consider any emotionally charged responses or interactions toward or with the people you mentioned in your post...if any...warranted or otherwise. I am simply encouraging you to consider walking back through the journey to now...and to consider your own behavior in a greater detail. I am not saying you are at fault, I am not saying that others have always acted in a respectful manner...I don’t know those things...but. If you were to “honestly” do those things as I am suggesting you may be able to see where you could have done better...and do better moving forward...maybe? Why would this be important? Well...you really cannot mandate the attitude or behavior of others around you...but you do have the ability to take full responsibility for your attitudes and behaviors. The reason this is important is...because it may create a greater sense of “humility in you”...this then will draw the grace of the Lord Yahshua to you and your situation. That is what you need more than anything...He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. I am not suggesting that you are “proud” my primary focus is upon “His grace to you” in your time of need...He is faithful. His grace consists of great things that you need but cannot supply for yourself...and He will reveal Himself to you in your situation. As He does this...you will be able to experience a deeper sense of thankfulness that can produce an attitude of forgiveness...and we all know how powerful and contagious forgiveness really is. Perhaps for now you cannot change the environment you are in...but look for the Lord’s leading as I have suggested. I am sure you are a loving mother...so continue to find ways to put those children in the best environment available...maybe the one you’re in for now. We are all in the process of being transformed by the renewing of our minds...and the principals of God are our best options May His awesome strength come to you in Love... Tatwo...:)

Greetings @truth7t7... The physical city of Jerusalem, Israel? It that what you are saying? Tatwo...:)

Greetings @Marilyn C... Here is what I am “saying”...in order for something to be “eternal” it had to have existed before creation and time. For example...“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” The only thing that I am aware of that existed before the creation of the heavens and the earth is...God...who is a “Spirit.” When there was no creation and all that comes with it in the heavens and on the earth...there was the eternal Spirit of God the Father. Marilyn, from what I think I know...about that which exists eternally...can accurately be defined and qualified as “no beginning and no ending” and I would cite the “Spirit of God”...as both my proof and example. So...any connection to an eternal existence must be defined this way...the Spirit of God. So as it would seem...the only way for something to exist eternally is...to be of the same substance that God the eternal Spirit Himself “is.” I am speaking of that which “He” allots via Christ...and is realized and recognized as an endowment [of Spirit] out of His own person...which is Spirit. He does this...and rest assured that it is Him and only Him that can do this. “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father [eternal Spirit] but through Me.” This is the Lords personal and only...authenticated access to God...His eternal Spirit Father...and it is only offered to humans as He calls them to it. For those who respond to His call...in faith and obedience...they will then be...“reconciled”...meaning to...“reestablish a close relationship”...in this case a spiritual “likeness, oneness, or unity” with the eternal Spirit of God. This should tie my entire thought together for you Sister...the connection that a human has to the eternal Spirit of God is our human spirit...which came from God to begin with? When He indwells the human spirit with His Holy Spirit...that human spirit is then “reanimated and reconnected” to its pre-creation, preordained, predestined eternal existence. This eternal life only exists...in or as the Spirit of God. I quoted you Paul’s teaching on this very subject in an earlier post...here it is once again... Ephesians 1... “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him...also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will” Romans 8...“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son...and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Ephesians 2... “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” This is why Paul also teaches things like... “from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.” “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female” “For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek” “a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew” The Lord Himself put it this way... “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Jews and gentiles are separate independent human flesh and blood definitions applied to those who can exist in creation only. For those of us who are born of God’s eternal Spirit...we are no longer merely carnal temporal human beings that can only exist in creation. We are “Spirit beings” whose spirits exist eternally in Christ...though some of us are yet clothed upon by flesh. Our spiritual existence is in the invisible Kingdom of God where Yahshua is...and we are eternally alive in the Spirit. This is why “in the Spirit realm of eternity” there are no distinctions between “Jew and Greek.” There is only one Kingdom in the eternal Spirit...the Kingdom of God...there is only one priesthood in eternity and it is the Royal Priesthood and the only nation in eternity is a Holy Nation and it is made up of “the spirits of the righteous made perfect.” Here I’ll leave you with a quote from Peter in regards to the matter Sister Marilyn C... “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1st Peter 2:9-10 KJV Tatwo...:)

Of course and I agree...with some exceptions...things that I have already presented to you. Marilyn C I understand your “eschatological world view” to an acceptable degree...I have been reading you for years. Everything that was created...was created by intention and for purpose by the Lord and for Him only. The Kingdom of Heaven [Holy Spirit Realm in creation] and the Kingdom of God [All authority and Power in creation] is presently an invisible eternal spiritual Kingdom...spanning both the heavens and the earth? It supports a completely different “citizenry”...an invisible yet real “spiritual citizenry”...they are the Spirit born Sons of God...known as “the spirits of the righteous made perfect.” The classifications you are using “nations – gentiles” and “Israel – Jews” have merit when speaking to a flesh and blood “earthly creature and existence.” It seems that you routinely conflate the eternal spiritual and temporally created realms...you may not see that...it is apparent to me...I understand that doctrinal stance also. For whatever it’s worth...I urge you to reconsider that position...and talk to the Holy Spirit about these things I am presenting you. May God strengthen you...via revelation? The former is eternal and spiritual...it is timeless, ageless unending ages, no beginning and no ending...Holy Spirit in character and nature...Yahshua. These are the ones who have passed through death into life...though some of them are yet clothed upon by flesh. All flesh will cease and yet...the Spirit that abides in Christ...within that dying flesh...cannot cease...it is this life that we are to pursue. The other...is temporal and physical...that which is created...has a beginning and has an ending just as everything that God created...will cease to exist when they have fulfilled God’s divine purposes. This includes all nations and peoples...for it is from them...the Father has granted to His Son...that He may reap a people for His name...those created in His image and likeness...Spirit...not flesh. The separation my Sister is happening as you read this...perhaps you might consider the “priesthood” and its role in the administration of its attendant covenant. With the Old Covenant you had the priesthood of “Aaron” aka the “Levitical priesthood” made up of finite men from Israel...who administered the elements of God for them...as a promised nation in order to bring forth...the seed of promise. This “Levitical priesthood”...was never intended as an eternal priesthood...and it is not Marilyn. With the New Covenant you have a “Royal priesthood” after the eternal order of Melchisedek remember? This Royal priesthood is not made up of finite men...but rather of righteous eternal spirits of men. Additionally its designation as “Royal” comes from the fact that the King of kings is upon the throne of God...and He is also the High Priest of the eternal priesthood...which existed long before creation...the nations or the Jews...no beginning no ending...eternal! All elements of the Old Covenant are fulfilled in and by the Lord Yahshua Christ...as He has instituted the New Covenant in His blood. Those in Christ whose lives are already eternal in their nature and in their pursuit...do so via their spirit. It is this order of “Royal Priests – Yahshua and His Spirit breathed Sons of God” who administer the elements of the New Covenant...this includes the entirety of the eschaton...of which in part they will be ordering forth God’s judgment. In order to partake of the New Covenant Truths, promises and prophecies...one must be a Spirit son of God. A spiritual nation of eternal Kings and Priests...eternity can only be inhabited by Spirit...the Holy Spirit of the living God to be precise. A place where there are no “free and slave...male or female...Jew or gentile” this place is here...now...today. All the “Sons of God” are like their Father who is Spirit...if you are a son of God it is by His Spirit that you are His offspring...so you are Spirit. Some of us are yet in these fleshly bodies...however I should think that most of us are already with Him...by Spirit. Outside of the “remnant” of “Spirit Sons to God” from Israel...as it is with any and all other nations...there will be no earthly nations or flesh and blood people in the “Royal Priesthood” Sister. This simply cannot happen...Scripture makes the point emphatically...those who believe and try...will fail. It will take that for many to see the error in false doctrines...if they have been born again. Tatwo...:)

Scripturally...and working from my last post to you Marilyn...in terms of the “Kingdom of God”...that eternal spiritual realm of the Living God...is here now. For the “sons of God” who have “entered into the Kingdom of God”...are already in heaven...by the Spirit. There are a number of passages that support this truth...I’ll include only one of them. “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ [Spirit] (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” Ephesians 2:4-7 NASB This is an “invisible Spirit reality”...its known as being “in Christ”...this does not include flesh and blood. Hence...in that way He [Holy Spirit] has already “raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”...in other words we are on the throne of God in Christ. Seems like a straight forward concept...as I have encountered...either one believes it or they do not...that depends upon their faith...and perhaps humility...but there can be no mixture of the two realities. So based upon what Paul said...the Spirit Sons of God are “already in glory” with the Lord...while I can agree that the ages will change...I am not waiting for some future event to “get into heaven or to glory” spiritually...because I am already here in Christ...great is the mystery of godliness Sister? Not only that...but I know what it is that I am to be doing in this life “specifically”...as I am God’s workmanship...created in Christ Yahshua for good works which my Father planned for me to walk in before He put creation in place. This is actually what I am being reconciled to in this life today! I am...as any maturing son of God is...learning how to live out of an eternal life here and now in this present creation...that I might be fully prepared for the utter end of this age...and to rule in the age to come. To miss this may not cost one their salvation...however it will make things much more complicated than they need to be moving forward in time. Tatwo...:)

So if I understand your question...you are asking this in the light of your list...”The Nations, Israel, The Body of Christ”...and where each group is appointed to rule in eternity...this is what I am working from. Now based upon your question...it appears to me that you believe...“each group [has] been appointed to rule in Gods great kingdom in eternity”...so it does appear that you are separating their existence by these three designations and this...in eternity. At a glance...you and I may have a different understanding of eternity...and Spirit life. That means...that it is likely that we are not in the same “mindset” concerning “Spirit life in Christ” as well. I am thankful to discuss this matter with you @Marilyn C...in as much as you so desire. And I am honored that you would ask me this question...so thank you. Today is fresh...your question is “Worthy”...you are “Worthy” my Sister...here is how I will respond. My answer to the question you asked of me and in your “OP” in this forum... “where has each group been appointed to rule in Gods great kingdom in eternity?” is this. The “Jews and the nations” have no place in the eternal spiritual Kingdom of God as you have listed. The Body of Christ...which includes its glorious Head is a completely different reality and person...a Spirit. The designation of “Jew and gentile” is a direct reference to a “flesh and blood” humanity which cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. The Son of God known as Christ is not flesh and blood...He is Spirit. If a Jew becomes a son of God...”Spirit” he is in the Kingdom of God...the same goes for the “nations” or the “Greek” or the “gentile” or the “heathen” and all the others Paul has listed. My explanation is below...if you or any others care to read it...do not be surprised if you hear some Truth you may have never heard or perhaps simply have not pieced together yet? And I am open for discussion in the matter. Christ...the many membered “Spirit Man” [Christ – Head and Body as one eternal Spirit being] is the basis and the purpose of creation...I think I made my point patently in my earlier post. You may not agree with my interpretation...fine. Christ then...being eternal...existed prior to creations [heaven and earth] actual existence...scripture supports this well. If “Christ” existed prior to our God and Father installing this creation within Himself...which He did...then the “pre-creation Christ” had to have been “Spirit and eternal” in nature...like God....not flesh and blood...and of course...He is. Perhaps you are following me here...you may disagree...but at least follow me as I chase this out some? The term “nations – ethnos” is generally describing heathens and gentiles...people, humans, flesh and blood beings. The term “Israel – Israél” is used in the New Testament to refer to the people of Israel, the nation of Israel, and sometimes symbolically to denote the spiritual descendants of Jacob....again we see clear reference to...people, humans, flesh and blood beings. The term “Body of Christ” – as I have posted above...is not “flesh and blood” He is “Spirit.” On the earth He...the Holy Spirit of Christ...indwells people, humans...“flesh and blood” beings. He however...is not flesh and blood...He is not human...He is the eternal Spirit...which is a completely independent life...from the biological flesh and blood existence of the human body. The life of the Spirit is an endowment out of the person of God Himself who is “Spirit.” For example...think Yahshua post baptism...where the Spirit of God descended and remained upon Him...which was a sign to John the Baptist...designating the One who is the “Lamb of God” and “would baptize in the Holy Spirit.” In this event...the Holy Spirit revealed Himself as “real, alive and living” in the Lord Yahshua Christ...the son of man [flesh]...making Him The Son of God [Spirit]...while walking the earth in His flesh and blood. Paul told us that...“from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.” Christ Yahshua is...since at least His ascension to glory...Spirit...and the Sons of God have...His Spirit which is Him...indwelling us...and His Spirit is eternal...no beginning no end...all flesh will parish. That’s why the Lord told Nicodemus...“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Yahshua is openly telling Nicodemus a Pharisee and a leader of the Jews...there is a “significant” difference between “flesh and Spirit”...the number one issue is...the flesh will die...and the Spirit can never die. If you are “not” born again...you remain in “your flesh” and you do not have the “eternal life of Christ” in you...the Holy Spirit. Yahshua makes it emphatically clear...“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” He is saying that...you must have the “Holy Spirit” dwelling within your members...in your “human spirit” in order to be “in Christ” and to enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God...having existed prior to creations actual existence...this Spirit...is not flesh and blood. “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the eternal Kingdom of God” because...they are not “Spirit”...only Spirit can inherit the spiritual Kingdom of God. Paul wrote in Galatians 3 “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. [Holy Spirit] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; [all 6 designations are in reference to flesh and blood] for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” There is no flesh and blood in Christ...one is in Christ as a Spirit and an eternal Spirit at that. To apply your question to me Marilyn...I am led at this point to tell you this...working from Paul who said...neither...“Jew nor Greek”...in other words there is neither...“Israel nor nations”...in Christ...it is a one to one correlation. “Israel and nations” are the designations of the “flesh and blood” of humans...flesh and blood humans are not in the Kingdom of God. Only those who have the Holy Spirit are in the Kingdom of God because this is a “Spirit Kingdom” and you must have God’s “Spirit”...in your “spirit” to be assembled into it. In Romans 10 Paul tells the family of God...“For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; [Once again Israel & Nations] for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him.” Those “in Christ” are no longer seen by Yahshua and Paul as “Jews and gentiles”...the Lord is a Spirit...this is reference to “the spirits of the righteous made perfect” which Paul acknowledges as the “general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven” from Hebrews 12. Only Spirits can be in heaven...right...and by virtue of being in Christ...we are already there? It is a spiritual reality...not a physical reality...I think people forget that. Do not forget the earlier reference I listed for you...“from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; [because in Christ we are recognized as a Spirit] even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, [when He was alive on the earth] yet now we know Him in this way no longer.” [Since His ascension and glorification] we now recognize Him as the eternal Holy Spirit. Those who are in Christ are so...as a Spirit...we are a totally new being...and “the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-- a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, [the “nations and Israel”] circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.” Here in Colossians 3 Paul lists 8 designations applied to the “flesh and blood” of all humanity and states that whosoever is in Christ is no longer set apart by the distinctions of flesh and blood designations...though while in their flesh and blood existence “other humans” may recognize them by these designations. I will leave you with this from Ephesians 2...“For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups [Jews - Israel and gentiles - nations] into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, [there is now “no distinction” between the two] by abolishing in His flesh [The sacrifice of His flesh] the enmity, [the disparity and angst] which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, [The law of Moses as given to Israel] so that in Himself [this is what it means to be “in Christ”] He might make the two into one new man, [a “Spirit Man” named Christ] thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body [the “Spirit” Body of Christ] to God [who is a Spirit] through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.” In Christ...there is no difference between the Jew and the gentile...Israel and the nations because the Body of Christy has become “One New [Spirit] Man”...known as Christ...the Son of the living God. Tatwo...:)

I think He would have been pleased with that! The plan of God however...was set and in place prior to anything in creation coming forth. The pre-creation covenant the Father made with His Son always had things going the way they did/are...we all know that. Besides Israel rejected God's offer to come into the eternal Royal Priesthood..."Melchisedek" who existed well prior to Israel...so it had to be the human based priesthood of the Levites...and them not going the way God would have preferred it to go for them...ever. None the less...God’s eternal and ultimate purpose was to bring forth those “He predestined as His sons...which have been conformed to Christ.” We have become His poetry, a “re-created” people...if you will...that will fulfill the destiny He has given each of us, for we are joined to Yahshua, the Anointed Eternal One. Even before we were born, God planned in advance “our destiny” and the good works we would do to “live it out” in obedience to Him! So in the “big picture” you know a thing we call “eternity”...no beginning no end...it was always about the bringing forth of the fully matured and spiritual “Royal Priesthood” comprised of the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Yahshua, the mediator of a New Covenant. It was is going to be about the “invisible Spirit Man known as Christ” and it was/is never going to be about whether one is free or slave...male or female...Jew or Greek...these are designations that pertain only to the humanness of creation. As eternal beings we are no longer relegated to or identified by the Lord Yahshua...as mere human naming conventions. We are One New Spirit Man...One in Christ...One in God...eternal in our existence. Tatwo...:)

Greetings @Marilyn C and all... I can and would love too...I was beginning to think that no one would ask. "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Gen 1:27 NASB This is "God's original intent" and the "entire purpose" for an "abundant creation" being put in place to begin with...to support this "Man." God is an invisible Spirit...He wants to reveal Himself and His love to His creation as Father...but He is "so big" that there is no vantage point where one could go and say..."over there...yeh it's God I can see God"...no...creation exists within Him and comes forth from Him. He desires to "dwell" among His creation as Himself...an eternal Spirit...so He made a "man of flesh"...Adam the first human and son of God. Adam failed...God knew this was going to happen which is why the "first Adam" was not the "man in the image and likeness of God." Adam did however accomplish the bringing forth the family of humans in a fleshly body...in which God the Father placed a spirit of life...an impartation of Himself...and a soul. All of carnal humanity springs forth from Adam and Eve...that's how the entirety of humanity was set in motion and why. This includes all the nations, Israel and Body of Christ...God simply wants to dwell among His creation...specifically and only in people who are in His image...God has always wanted to be experienced by mankind. We know that the Lord Yahshua Christ was in view prior to creation being established...many scriptures reveal this...so Yahshua...the “second Adam” was always God the Fathers perfect intention and the fulfillment of God’s original "pre-creation" intention...“the man created in His image and likeness.” He...the Lord Yahshua comes forth then...as the "perfect Son of God”...He is “the man in the image and likeness of God...Himself"...Yahshua came forth to show us His Father...whose eternal “Spirit” was now on the earth in a human being...Him. Whoever qualifies as a son of God in this creation...is in Christ...and is becoming “the man in the image and likeness of Christ”...who is God. When He is fully matured...according to the Holy Spirits judgment, which time has been set prophetically...He will begin to be revealed upon the earth...as the “Son of God.” His nature is an invisible Spirit...housed in human bodies...exactly like our Lord Yahshua Christ...for exactly the same purpose...to reconcile man to God and to destroy the works of the devil...and this will be right here on this present earth...unto the revealing of creations King and High Priest. The “Spirit to spirit” interaction that humanity can have with the eternal God...is what connects the “spirit mind of man” to the “Spirit mind of God”...where they “commune as an eternal One.” The man was given a soul so that he would be able to interact or connect with the physical world around him. So this “man in the image and likeness of God” is capable of interacting with the Spirit of the eternal living God in Christ...while also and simultaneously being able to interact with the physical world and its people around him...by the five senses of the soul. This “Mans” body is how the “man” exists in the world...visible and experiential to the world...all the while by his spirit...being able to exist “in” the Spirit of the eternal invisible person of Christ. This man is both divine and eternal because He is Spirit...no free man, no slave...no male, no female...no Jew, no gentile. He is an entirely new creation and is not known after the human designations...even though humans are. This then is how the mighty God interacts, loves and is loved and worshipped in His creation. This “Man” and “this man only” the “Son of God...Christ...Head and Body”...becomes “the Son who is the dazzling radiance of God’s splendor, the exact expression of God’s true nature—His mirror image!” In other words...”the Man in the image and likeness of God”...for which creation was abundantly "sown and purposed"...to bring forth...so that God the Father would have many Spirit sons in His only begotten Son the Lord Yahshua Christ...by His Spirit. It is these that He will “harvest from creation” and take into eternity to rule and reign as Christ the Son of the living God! This Marilyn...covers the “purpose of God making the...nations, Israel, the Body of Christ.” I would be remiss if I did not include here that the mature members of Christ...are so...because they are living out the exact purpose in the Body of Christ that the Father “predestined...before creation” and desires them to live...and they know it. They have been reconciled to their “eternal purpose in Christ”...it is these who will reveal the supremacy of Christ to His enemies...so...we are nearly prepared for and end of the age show down with darkness...and the judgment has already been awarded to the “Man in the image and likeness of God”...known as the Son of the living God and Father of creation...Christ. Tatwo...:)

Brother...I am not familiar with "your style" but I am learning. This post made me LoL...please don't be offended...I wish I could have put it so neat and succinctly...with a touch of humor...unless I missed you then forgive me. Tatwo...:)

Yeh...well you said a mouthful there brother...yes we can see that Israel was reconstituted as a nation as you suggest...and the spiritual ramifications of this event does include a remnant...it is no different than any other nation tribe tongue or people. The enemy is using that fact...that Israel is once again a nation and that it somehow fits into the eschaton in its own unique and special way...however this is all deception on the part of the dragon...which does lead to skepticism as to their importance...so I am with you "Brother D. Adrian" and at the very least skeptical of its significance myself. It is because those who see a national ethnic people as being included in the citizenship of the Kingdom of Heaven do not realize that the citizenship of the Kingdom of heaven is not physical nor is it ethnic...it is purely Spirit...Paul teaches this explicitly. We are a new creation...we are eternal...not an old physical geographical ethnic reality that has been done away with. So some folks will be unhappy that I said that...I know...yet when this all plays out...the truth will be known. The issue in view here is the priesthood that administers the covenant. There is very little if any pertinent conversation about priesthoods on any of these forums that I have seen...but I have not seen them all. I'll put this in play here...it is not a secret...the covenant God made with Himself before creation...before there were men...was always going to be administered by the "Royal Priesthood." The priesthood of Aaron also know as the "Levitical Priesthood" was a priesthood of men...finite humans...it was a type of "workaround" to keep a mostly rebellious Israel in the game to bring forth the "seed of promise"...God is merciful and gracious in the eternal way we must never forget that. Abraham himself encountered "Melchisedek" the "Royal Priest - of the eternal Priesthood" long before Jacob was born and had any sons. This "Royal Priesthood" was in play then...and was always going to be the way God would administer His Kingdom...aka..."the Government of God"...on the earth. The Levitical Priesthood was for Israel...for a time...it was they who administered the standing covenant of their day...the "Old Covenant"...that time is over for like 2000 years. That priesthood is gone and will never again be of any consequence in terms of what the Lord Yahshua Christ in doing to bring about the revelation of His authority at the end of this age. The Royal Priesthood is not made up of men...it is purely a spiritual priesthood and it is eternal...and is not in any way reliant upon man or anything in creation for that matter. The "Royal Priesthood" is such...because when you are both the King of kings who sits upon the throne of God you are "Royalty." When that "Royal King" who sits on the throne is also God's "High Priest" in the eternal order of Melchisedek...you have a "Royal Priesthood." A prophetic type of this is found in Zechariah 6... This eternal Royal Priesthood is bringing the administration of "all authority"...given to our Lord Christ Yahshua by His Father "in heaven and on the earth"...making Him the "plenary source of all authority"...and He is bringing the "government of God" into play here on the earth as you read this. Those who constitute this "Royal Priesthood"...the "Body of Christ" under the immutable leadership of its glorious Head...is not presently waiting, watching and praying for the secret second coming of the Lord Yahshua Christ...that will not happen in that way. They...the "Sons of God...the Body of Christ" are being prepared to reveal the glory of our God and Father of creation...in the exact manner in which the "first born of many sons"...the "only begotten Himself" did. As a result...they...Head and Body have begun to establish the Truth that the Lord Yahshua Christ...the Son of the living God...is in fact the King of kings. Something that Israel and Rome rejected. His Father promised Him all the nations and the ends of the earth...and He is going to get them! He is Christ...Head and Body...alive and well on the earth and in the heavens today. He is eternal...no beginning and no end...there is nothing that can threaten Him. Perhaps you have not heard this have you? And many of you who do...will reject this...fine go back to your creature comforts and trust in them to secure you...I have no issue with that...the Lord Himself warned us against that. If you are "born again" we will meet again...hopefully in this age...I say that because the next age is going to be quite different for the rebellious children of God. Prophetically D. Adrian...Christ the Son of the living God is being revealed to creation now...as the fulfillment of God the Father's original desire and intent in the putting forth of creation itself...to bring about "a man in His image and likeness." Such a man is "Spirit" not flesh...and He is called Christ. Tatwo...:)

May I explain it like this...? In the day time...when one can see the sky above...you can see the storm clouds forming in the distance and moving towards you. You are then granted the time and space to prepare as necessary for its arrival...what ever that might be for you. Then exactly as expected it gets to your location...you are prepared and the storm does it's thing while you watch it. At night however...things playout completely different...in terms of our perception. As for the storm...it operates virtually the same as the storm in the daylight...the difference being...the storm at night is not easily seen. So folks go to sleep and often times are unaware of the approaching storm and thereby generally less prepared...so...when the storm hit's it seems so sudden and to have come out of nowhere. Now...for the "spiritually immature, unexperienced or those dull of hearing" as the apostle Paul put it...eschatological events are often like the storm at night. The dragon and his beast are invisible because they are spirits. Invisible spirits cannot be seen with the human eye...but they are here and they are doing their destructive thing. The work they have been doing is millennia in the making...taking place over many decades and centuries making it hard to identify because when you are able to spread your plans over many decades and generations of mankind...humanity has a hard time following it and recognizing it. Being that these actions are taking place in the invisible spiritual realm...where mere humanity cannot see them...like the storm at night...it comes forth as the darkness has planned and is undetectable to the 5 human senses. In addition to invisibility due to the cloak of deception and darkness...when the dragons plans do actually come forth on the earth...because most people by far have not recognized the invisible foundational work that took place over time...to one day manifest the evil acts of darkness, people generally do not recognize it as the works of the devil...it looks like the works of humanity to most...and there is that as well. In other words...they do not have a "spiritual basis of reasoning" for what they are seeing and do not understand the spiritual cause of these evil and destructive events...so they do not understand what is "actually" happening...they believe in a different cause...one more plausible to the human mind. So my answer to your question is...it is a slow steady plodding in most cases...that is undetectable to the carnal and immature spiritual mind and often cases has been spread across the centuries...so that when it is time for the the dragons plans to be enacted on the earth...it can be experienced as a seemingly "quick slide" event out of nowhere...of which...mankind has no knowledge or understanding in regards to that which brings these events forth. There's that for now... Tatwo...:)

Greetings Bro... There are definitely "specific sign posts" as you call them...but they are spiritual and thereby invisible. The outward appearing of the invisible realm of darkness...is present in abundance...few are recognizing them. This is because the dragon is so skilled in his ability to deceive the mind of mans soul...people all around me and on the Worthy forum are definitely not recognizing the "sign posts" for what they are. So your ask might be difficult to answer...buy that I mean...if I were to tell you what I see...I believe that "you - D. Adrian" may be able to understand...yet the scoffers will come. They are the ones who flock to truth to dispel it...much like the Judaizers followed around behind Paul feverishly dispelling Paul's revelation of the Lord Yahshua Christ. I have followed what I call the "attack on humanity" looking for the ways the devil seduces the human soul via deception. My two primary research efforts are..."food and finance" simply because they are generally the most impactful upon humanity. The entire food production capabilities have been drastically and systematically reduced in the U.S. over the last 10 years with most of it in the 5-6 years. This is something I have followed closely for nearly 20 years. I have been in the food production effort for all those years...albeit via affiliations with Local Community Supported Agriculture and our modest 1 acre garden. There is and will be food insecurity in the U.S. increasingly from this point forward. This will be significantly skewed and hidden for a time yet...primarily due to a propagandized media structure...the gullibility of humanity and the increase of "lab grown food" so to speak.. Along with this comes the ever "ultra processed food like substance" and the new Genetically Modified Organism style of food. These are more likely to administer a pharmaceutical payload verses nutrition...seriously. This definitely has connections to the "Black horse and horseman of scarcity and famine"...which already has shown itself to use "food as a weapon" which is causing increased level of sickness due to a lack of nutrition leading to starvation and death. That's where I can see the work of the pale horse and it's riders taking place. This will likely mean nothing to most...so...I will stop here for now. Tatwo...:)

Here's an example of the kind of AI surveillance I was referencing in one or two of my posts. https://newrepublic.com/post/195904/trump-palantir-data-americans It's literally a 3 minute read. This is coming out in the open now but the normies - "those fascinated with their own realities" - have no idea what is happening so to them there is no need to think about it. The guy Peter Thiel...who owns the company whose software is used by intelligence agencies around the world...both the U.S. and Israel for example. He is the same guy who invested in and empowered Vice President J.D. Vance to his present role. He and his company are now officially hired by the present administration to carry out the executive order instructing government agencies to share data with each other. Among other things...the shear multitude of information related to the American public...is included in this "data sharing." The administration’s efforts to compile data began under Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency initiative, which sought Americans’ personal data from multiple agencies including the IRS, the SSA, Selective Service, Medicare, and many others. In some cases, court orders hindered these efforts, but not in all of them. Thiel has multiple ties to DOGE, both through Musk and through many of his former employees working for the effort or taking other jobs in the Trump administration. Imagine what this data collection effort could give Thiel, Musk, and Trump? Perhaps an unprecedented power over anyone who might present a threat to them and more? And certainly a live AI data set on millions of American citizens? I am not fearing you or anyone...this is happening...I saw this being set up years ago. What does this mean? It likely means that much of the U.S. Government data...including US citizens is in the possession of a few men...and their AI software...this is very likely not by accident. If you think these billionaires are benevolent...you are in for a rude awakening. You are here. Tatwo...:)

Great points...I too have listed these points and others like them...numerous times. With few exceptions not to many “believers” seem to be concerned about these issues and issues like them. I agree...things will get progressively worse...to use your words...exactly as the Lord said. No you’re not being pessimistic...this truth just bothers some folks around here that’s all...the continual and increasing destruction of the “human existence” is a prevailing reality today Starise. It is an invisible spiritual and progressive decline...a skillful deception...only those who can see this...can see this...the rest are not worried. The question I have for you @Starise is...how deep into the descent of darkness are you prepared to go? Tatwo...:)

If...“agreeing to disagree” is “a” measure of “maturity” what are we to do with Paul’s words from Ephesians 4...where he says we are to...“attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ...? Isn’t a primary mandate in the Kingdom of God...“speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ?” Where do we see the Christ making or leaving room for “agreeing to disagree” when it comes to His instruction for His Body and this...directly in regards to our understanding of the last days? If these are the last days...and I tend to think that this is so...if it shakes out like Yahshua said it will...I am convinced of no other possibility. One either agrees with His desire or they are mistaken in their judgment. Where does He compromise? Oh I understand how mankind is into compromises...but not the Christ. In order for any agreement or even a realistic discussion on the matter...someone has got to know the mind of the Lord at least in part...for the last days that lead to the end of this age. I am sure we could do that...but that is where true maturity would have to be put on display. The “me against you” reality I often see here in the Worthy Forum adds a layer of complication on top of the fact that many people have not actually encountered each other personally...which I understand. They have built an “online presence & relational persona” amongst themselves and they value them. However we must admit that...ones image can be managed to anything one desires...and no one will ever know the difference. There is actually little person to person accountability here on these forums in general. Sometimes that is so disappointing because without accountability to each other...there is virtually no accountability to the Lord either. This in part is what leads to the “angst, discomfort and disagreement” of which you speak. It would seem to me that it is difficult maybe impossible in an environment that lacks any real “hermano a hermano” spiritual accountability...for there to also be a pureness of humility amongst the brethren? Without accountability, humility...and a pure loving of the Christ in each other...what are you left with in terms of the Kingdom of God? Well whatever it is...it will not be Christ. I would like to share about something’s I have learned in regards to the end of the age...but I would be hard pressed to do so in such a hostile and divided environment. That does not mean I wouldn’t...but in that environment it feels like unnecessary pain. No I am not so jaded as to think everyone will or must agree on everything...however the spiritual and scriptural indications are...that the Body of Christ will unify...this is the work of the Holy Spirit. Wherever we see that unity the Holy Spirit is at work among the family...everything else is anti-christ. Tatwo...:)

I would say that your assessment is spot on bro...and I think that some of the responses on this forum, alone would explain this patently. Things like “all is quiet”...”wait a while longer”...”nobody can understand”...”we occupy”...and I am not criticizing nor confronting these attitudes...here...really. These are however some of the words used by some of the “brothers” that you have referenced in this forum @Starise. I just do not see a lot of interest towards understanding the “last days” in those words and attitudes. For those of you who posses this mindset...so be it...as you wish of course. Additionally, other brothers have said the following in response to your inquiry...” I reside in a similar environment and view it as the deceitfulness of sin.”...“the following of witchcraft is more common today than at any other point in history”...“The Bible is very clear that there will be Church but it will only be a form of Godliness and no longer the real thing.”...“39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”...“Northeast of this city lies a placid suburbia-ville. Everything is peaceful there, and the police are swift to respond to calls. That's where most churches are located.”...“There is no emphasis on fellowshipping with the one who is in the midst,” Again I am not being critical of these words either...I am only trying to bring front and center the reasons for a sensed “discomfort” Starise. And it may not be discomfort due to the subject matter alone. It is possible that in part...the discomfort lies in dealing with the vast degree of disparity between those who have responded to you here...and the attitudes of the personages involved? Some may feel like...“what’s the point of the discussion if we are not working to a common spiritual truth”...which is where the Lord will be found. We have had great and laborious dialogues concerning this matter of the “last days” many times...what more is there to say when we once again find ourselves at the same impasse? I can assure you of this...that behavior is not likely what the Lord is leading His family through here in these “last days.” Tatwo...:)

I am not completely clear as to what you are defining as the “two main camps”...would you mind defining them for me? Does the “we” in your “we are”...agree...as to what it is that constitutes “doing the work of the Lord?” “we are still to be doing the work of the Lord”...what do you mean @Starise? Care to elaborate in a specific way perhaps? What does the Body under its glorious Head look like to you...and what is He doing on the earth...today? Tatwo...:)

Greetings @Starise...and any others... The topic of the “last days” has come up a number of times over the last few months. I am sure that not everyone really “understands” what this actually means...which is...as I suspect...why this faithful Brother...Starise...has brought it up again? It is a “Worthy” discussion...it is not a religious or worldly discussion however. If this discussion once again becomes an argument of “ones subjective opinion against another’s”...what will be the gain? The answer is...worse than “nothing”...it will continue to divide the house. Is the Lord not glorified enough to reveal all that we need? Of course He is...is He not speaking to His sons on the earth today? Of course He is...will He not tell us all that we need to know? Of course He will. Briefly let’s consider something the Lord said... “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” John 16:13 NASB If we believe that Yahshua meant what He said then...we can know anything He wants show us and that which we require...He is our provider and protector. Some will get this and others will not...some will agree to agree...while opposition is always available...that was by God’s own design. I have some thoughts...and questions... Tatwo...:)

Greetings @jswauto... The song has me in tears Bro...I totally believe her! Thank you for sharing... At the risk of offending the over-sensitive folks who may read this...I must say your sentence above made me laugh out loud. Not that what you said is funny...no its not that. I just felt an overwhelming sense of pure "child like" not "childish" faith coming at me from your words...yeh...thanks brother. There are what constitutes a rather large constituency of Christians that believe now that the Scriptures have been canonized...in the form of the "Holy Bible"...that the Holy Spirit of God no longer really communicates directly to our human spirits. With these folks I have experienced...that when our Lord Yahshua "speaks"...they have concocted elaborate ways of disregarding His patently obvious presence and Word...these deny Him. This is in their assertion of "Scriptural and biblical superiority" they because they practice something called "Sola Scriptura." Translated it means "Scripture only or Scripture alone." In the way I interpreted your above statement...you just so thoroughly contrasted that position in a few words...nice job! The Word of God is living and active...of course...He is alive...remember? He is alive in those of us that have encountered Him personally...He did that...He put Himself in us...who He is...as the Holy Spirit of the living God. He loves us eternally...He obediently sacrificed His human life as a strong young man...to open up to us yet in the flesh...more specifically in our spirit...to His off the charts presence as the eternal God and Father of creation... Tatwo...:)

Yes...I understand and agree...what is somewhat surprising to me is that for those who "do not know" about the matter I am referencing...they will remain in a state of "ignorance" in regards to the enemies ever so subtle efforts to conceal his hidden desires and agenda. Which is characterized as "kill steal and destroy"...this "digital panopticon" realm and all of its trappings has and will continue to enslave humanity. I have been seeking the Lord about these and other dragonistic schemes for more than twenty years...as I am called to do. Following them prophetically...meaning before they come forth on this earth and upon a largely unsuspecting humanity. My vantage point is the throne of God...with the Holy Spirit who is guiding my spiritual growth and discernment. In scenarios where this type of surveillance exists people should not merely accept it! And at the same time there is very little that can be done about it...yes I am fully aware of that as well...so what am I suggesting? Concepts like "network state or netstate, smart city, 15 minute city, freedom city, digital nation" and there may be more...are variations of the same concept of herding humanity...and these realities are not very well understood by the typical human. These "freedom cities" as President Trump references them...will employ technology such as "geo fencing" and its big brother the "digital panopticon" which are being used already today. This targeted surveillance and data collection is being used to...as I said in another post...predict and shape individual's behavior's. I am not kidding here...many are coopted already and being "nudged" psychologically which can very subtly alter people's behavior...and thinking. This concept has been around for at least 30 years and may be defined in it's covert operation as..."Influencing decisions through subtle interventions." It is nothing less than a psychological operation. They sell us on the convenience of the connected device by making it compatible with anything and everything connected...the "internet of things - IoT" and/or "the internet of bodies - IoB." The former is just that "devices" connected...the latter is just that as well..."human bodies" connected. Is the latter actually doable? I am not sure...but the transhumanism/eugenics reality and its subsidiaries do exist and it is extremely heavily funded and has been in research and development for nearly 100 years as I have encountered it. Patrick Wood in his article entitled..."AI's Prime Directive: Stunning Realization From ChatGPT Itself" which unfortunately is behind a pay wall...stated that DOGE either has or may still be feeding all the data from 17 major U.S. governmental agencies...into AI...why? Well if it is true...and I do believe that in some form it is...then what could the operators of this AI tech do with a significant portion of America's governmental and her citizens personal information? DHS, FEMA, HHS,CFPB, SSA, DOE, USAID, DOD, USIP, IRS, USDA, SEC, DOJ, TSA, HUD, DOI, GSA, NEH are the departments and agencies he listed. If AI is in partial or full control of all the data in these agencies...just how educated is this advanced AI? Additionally...the strength of AI is it ability to deal with and control the inputs and outputs of "live data streams"...of which the U.S. government is the mother of all live data streams. Just how close to some type of AI control over government are we...if it is not already happening? This was all only going to be the future until it became the present anyways...right? As a maturing son of God...who is not a movie buff nor have I ever been one...yet I think it appropriate to quote Morpheus for context here. “The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you’re inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.” Interestingly that statement is eerily similar to something the Lord Yahshua is reported to have said..."Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." I'll just leave this here... Tatwo...:)