BlindSeeker

Verses for the seven year trib... not what you believe it will be.

Is there another witnessing verse tot the seven years tribulation? Without it, all you done is submitted an opinion.

I believe Washington was a deist and not a true Christian, as well as a freemason. Regardless, freemasonry and Christianity are of different spirits. Therefore, on that I view his vision as a false hope, contrary to the truth. The land will somewhat be there, but that's all. Just smothering ruins is that...

Is there anyone who can prove WilliamL wrong???? If you believe in it, why? What is the scriptural foundation for it?

I am looking for your scriptural support please...

Any Bible references?

Simple, what is your support scriptural for the SEVEN YEARS of tribulation?

Personally, I think anyone who thinks Israel and Jerusalem is mystery Babylon has taken a serious wrong turn. No wanting to debate it, that's a labor of the flesh and an effort of futility. Just wanting to be on record my perspective of that concept. Also, I don't believe there will be a USA when the 2 witnesses are killed, that is why the other nations are emboldened.

Feel free to expound and further define your position. FYI, while I recognize the apostate of Israel and Judaism without Christ, I do not see her as this harlot in chapter 18.

Amen, very well said. I often view it as if we are all spokes on a rim connected to the axle, the polestar of all truth. From our various starting points we all begin with a different perspective, often blinded to the view of another, as they are to ours. Yet as life begins to rotate the wheel of life, the attentive will take notice of the change, new perspectives formed, and with time and maturity under the assistance of the Holy Spirit, we all converge more into a harmony of heart and mind towards the Truth. I believe it is this process, a form of sanctification and perfection of holiness, that causes us to put on Christ, and to come to the that measure and fulness of Him. Romans 13:14 - But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts [or pride] thereof. Ephesians 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind [or whim] of doctrine, by the sleight [or ignorance] of men, or cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow up into Him in all things, which is our head, even Jesus Christ, 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted [or pressed into humility in order to receive from others] that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working [of the Spirit] in the measure of every part, thereby making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Amen, and amen. Who are we and what have we that we have not received? If we figured it our, we will only be proven wrong in the in. No one wants to be a Harold Camping, twice wrong, in predicting the the start of the apocalypse and the date of the rapture. However, the arrogant will run ahead. Hence, knowledge puffs up and give vain confidence, but true understanding from the Lord brings humility. Proverbs 4:7 - Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 16:16 - How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver! Jesus said they were indeed blessed to whom "it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God." Even Daniel, a very humble man, was told by the angel, "I am come forth to give you both skill and understanding" of the things he had heard and saw. True. Some are like drive by shooters, never stopping to listen, only constantly shooting of the scripture gun, and that not to bring unity or understanding, but to defend the high ground from which they are destined to fall from... We all have bibles and many read them, but reasoning and ministry must be intimate and personal, otherwise it is detrimental... Galatians 6:1 - Wherefore brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. All of this happened already, read the Book of Acts. A true Christian will find persecution everywhere....

I truly appreciate your insight and find considerable room for comfortable agreement with you. Honestly, no patronizing. However, to be forthcoming, I personally do not subscribe to the popular notion of an end-time antichrist figure rising to near global dominance. While I have other reasons for not accepting it as truth, one simple reason would simply be the unanswerable question as to why the Apostle John didn't use the term he coined "antichristos" in Revelation. He it 5 times in his epistles relative to his own time, and in the plural about many antichrists coming, and clearly in the sense of it being a spirit of apostacy that would deny the humanity/deity of Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels... At the risk of being called a Catholic hater again by one of our posters in this thread, I will simply share a brief excerpt from a chapter title “Giving Way to the Rise of The Son of Perdition” concerning a popular historical perspective of 1 Thessalonian's "man of sin" - 1st Thessalonians 2:3 – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. The above verse is widely taught in Christendom today as referencing an end-time antichrist world leader figure. However, when researching old protestant commentaries, even the widely trusted Matthew Henry Commentary, it is hard to find one who fails to relate this “son of perdition” to the position of the papacy, or the succession of popes of Roman Catholicism. Some commentators, like the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary printed in 1871, recognize this verse as ultimately being fully realized in an individual “whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.” However, they too affiliate this verse with the papacy position, but to the end conclusion that there would be one pope, the last pope in the latter days, which would with greater boldness oppose the Lord, His word, and Jesus the Christ openly. See below - “Doubtless “the apostasy” of Romanism (the abstract) is one of the greatest instances of the working of the mystery of iniquity, and its blasphemous claims for the Pope are forerunners of the final concentration of blasphemy in the man of sin, who shall not merely, as the Pope, usurp God’s honor as vicegerent of God, but oppose God openly at last.” Now, this little paragraph above, coupled with the following is perhaps one of the most important and yet least known details pertaining to the most popular teachings on eschatology. It deserves your careful noting, for what many believers nowadays are ignorant of is that this popular theology, which is being widely taught and accepted by non-Catholics, concerning the antichrist rebuilding the temple and becoming a world leader, was originally propagated and taught by a French Catholic monk known as Adso of Montier-en-Der who died in 992 A.D. Though he was a prolific writer of poems, hymns, and biographies of the lives of saints, his perhaps most famous work was his “Letter to Queen Gerberga on the Place and Time of Antichrist,” which became known as the “Little Book on the Antichrist.” However, this theology which was so articulated over a thousand years ago by a Catholic monk, was rejected essentially by every protestant commentator who sought to defend the truth with their pen. For they acknowledged Paul’s speaking in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 of “a falling away first” as being the rise of Roman Catholicism, and “that man of sin… the son of perdition” as the succession of popes. In the second century, Polycarp, deemed to be an apostolic father, in his Letter to the Philippians, paragraph 7, warned the Philippians that everyone who preached false doctrine was an antichrist. Polycarp’s use of the term “antichrist” agrees with the Apostle John who does not reference a single antichrist, but rather a class of people functioning under a “spirit of antichrist.” I John 2:18 – Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But you have an unction from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist that denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also. Note that this spirit of antichrist, which works to cause men to deny Jesus as the Christ, is said to be also denying both “the Father and the Son,” rendering those who would embrace the antichrist, or false-christ message, to be such that “has not the Father.” To counter this, John assures the saints that “he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” I find it interesting that the Holy Spirit isn’t referenced by John somehow within theses passages. 1st John 4:3 – And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof you have heard that it should come; and even now already is in the world. 1st John 7 – For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Nevertheless, this historical understanding of a spirit of antichrist that works to advance false prophets and teachers has for the most part been completely abandoned by non-Catholics today; most probably because most believers nowadays are ignorant of both scripture and history. Which means it would be prudent for the earnest seeker of the truth to ask what scriptural and historical justification these protestant commentators had for interpreting it the way they did. Perhaps, part of the answer has been obscured by Paul’s decision to not write about the subject plainly and openly in his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians; but instead, chooses only to allude to it by directing his readers to “remember” that which he had taught them when he was there with them. 2nd Thessalonians 2:5 – Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. Paul’s manner of writing here leaves me asking the question, “Why didn’t Paul just articulate these things again in more detail in his epistle?” With a matter of such significant importance, what could be his reason for not putting forth a clear and coherent teaching on this apostasy which the Holy Spirit had revealed to him was going to take place? Especially when Paul’s normal pattern in his epistles was to be very meticulous and thorough when presenting to the saints the oracles of God; yet here he goes no further than to write to them “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?” It is evident Paul felt it was wisdom to trust the Holy Spirit to help them recall these pertinent things, for he continues with “you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.” Hence it seems evident that the Apostle Paul under the unction of the Holy Spirit was writing with great carefulness and was unwilling to formally document those things which he had obviously communicated to them in person."

Amen.

For the most part I agree. But in regard to prophetic significance for the last days, I see it as the religious mother of harlots which has sat upon all seven mountains and seen to be riding the beast (IMHO, the 8th and last prophetic great empire) in chapter 18. I feel that this union is prophetically significant of an unholy matrimony between the apostate religious system (whore) and the civil empire (beast). I do not see them being separated in judgment or destruction. I believe the ten other nations deceitfully agree to a new economic system which might be a gold back cryptocurrency, perhaps to counter what the economic collaboration called BRICS. I believe it will be a reaping of what has been sown, taking others into captivity, going into captivity, gaining power by the sword (weapon of war), and dying by the sword. WW2 brought about the decline of the British Empire, who controlled Palestine under its Commonwealth, which led to the rebirth of Israel, and the use of atomic weapons catapulted America into global supremacy. For funsies, here’s an interesting quote from “The Franck Report” that was signed by the top scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project. “All of us, familiar with the present state of nucleonics, live with the vision before our eyes of sudden destruction visited on our own country, of a Pearl Harbor disaster repeated in thousand-fold magnification in every one of our major cities.” A thorough reading of the Franck Report will show just how President Truman and other government leaders rejected the counsel of the wise, just like Rehoboam rejected the wisdom of his father’s counsellors when he was asked by Jeroboam to lower the taxes. After the scientists realized their letter had not been delivered, they wrote a second petition to President Truman, from which the following excerpt was taken. “The war has to be brought speedily to a successful conclusion and attacks by atomic bombs may very well be an effective method of warfare. We feel, however, that such attacks on Japan could not be justified, at least not unless the terms which will be imposed after the war on Japan were made public in detail and Japan were given an opportunity to surrender.” “If such public announcement gave assurance to the Japanese that they could look forward to a life devoted to peaceful pursuits in their homeland and if Japan still refused to surrender, our nation might then, in certain circumstances, find itself forced to resort to the use of atomic bombs. Such a step, however, ought not to be made at any time without seriously considering the moral responsibilities which are involved.” “The development of atomic power will provide the nations with new means of destruction. The atomic bombs at our disposal represent only the first step in this direction, and there is almost no limit to the destructive power which will become available in the course of their future development. Thus, a nation which sets the precedent of using these newly liberated forces of nature for purposes of destruction may have to bear the responsibility of opening the door to an era of devastation on an unimaginable scale.” It almost sounds prophetic, doesn't it?

As far as Israel being Babylon, I see no scriptural basis for it, especially in the usage of “Babylon” in the latter half of Revelation. Clearly, Jerusalem by God Himself is referred to as "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." But just because it is called "the great city" in Rev. 11:8, doesn't mean it is “that great city Babylon” mentioned in chapters 14-18, for the phrase “that great city” is used again, being mentioned in Rev. 21:10 of the “New Jerusalem – “And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.” Babylon, strictly speaking, was but the capital of Chaldea, it too being “a great city,” and therefore the usage of “Babylon” is synonymous with the Chaldean empire. But Nineveh also was called “a great city,” as well as the cities Gideon and Ai, though Ai was admittedly not “as great” of a city. Furthermore, Jerusalem is not a port city, so why would “the merchants of the earth weep over her burning?” And wherein have they been “made rich, all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness?” I certainly feel it takes considerably more squinting of the eye to see Israel as this prophetic “Babylon” than America which fits the description comfortably. BTW, a fun fact, there is a Babylon, New York, on the water just 20 miles from New York City. Also, New York City was the original capital of the USA, where George Washington was sworn in back in 1789. Good post. Thanks. Technically. But I hear Trump wants to change that, and sorry, I have no source for that. But I would respond that it is impossible to separate it from the nation in reference to the wrath of God.