Massorite

Yes! One day when my life was in shambles. I was hopelessly bound to alcohol and knew that if I didn't stop I would end up in jail, dead or crippled up. So I was going to bed with a beer in one hand and a bible in the other. I started going to church but I would drink 2 or 3 tall boys on the way to the church. Then one night I had a dream and I still remember it to day just as clear as I am looking at this screen today and it was 12 years ago. At the start of my dream I was standing in a church parking lot with other people. Although I could not see them but I could feel them. I knew they were there and we were all leaving that church. The day was a beautiful sunny day and everything was full of color except that church. It was just a black shape and the deepest darkest of black one can imagine. I could not see the windows and doors or anything else. Just this shape of the church with it's steeple. Then we were all standing in the parking lot of another church. Again I could not see the people like that were with me but I could feel them. It was a traditional white clapboard church with stained glass windows. Next we were all in the church and the congregation were all standing and one could feel great joy, excitement and anticipation in the air. The suddenly I was standing at the alter doing something with my hands. I couldn't see what it was that I was doing with my hands but I knew it was in preparation for the coming service. Then suddenly I was standing at the back right corner in the church and the level of excitement also suddenly went up. After that the preacher came out and began to preach. Every body remained standing and I could hear the preacher speaking but I couldn't hear what he was saying. Then the dream ended. There was a little more in the dream and I believe it was telling me of my future wife whom I am now married to. I woke up that morning completely delivered from the bondage of alcohol and was so high on the spirit of God I felt that I could have jumped all the way to heaven. I poured out all of my beer and went to DUI school and community service running my mouth about Jesus!

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text. I agree. I do think that the US fits the description of Babylon in the book of Revelation but when I take into consideration the prophesies about the revived Roman Empire and how the EU also fits the description of Babylon. I believe that the future Babylon is the nation of the EU. Which will include all of the territory of the old Roman Empire with Russia being an ally or part of the EU and England being separated from it in the future. At some point in the future the EU is going to change it's policies about Israel and become totally against it when the antichrist breaks his deal with Israel.

In the book of Deuteronomy 16:21 the bible says

that is a very good point to make, Anne. without a good discernment, any extra-biblical book can be misrepresented and misleading. some have discovered so-called proof of purgatory from the Books of the Maccabbees. when doing your study of Genesis, did you research or look into the Tar'gumim? Tar'gum On'kelos or Tar'gum Yonathan? these are Aramaic interpretations which have a lot of information on various views of how the interpreters of B'reshith/Genesis saw the text. here's a link: http://www.tulane.edu/~ntcs/tgtext.htm the tradition of the book of Enoch isn't that Enoch himself wrote the book, but the Sons of the Prophets, who had seen a vision of the past concerning the times of Enoch, the Righteous Scribe, the Son of Jered. according to this also, those who wrote it related many oral traditions concerning Enoch and those times before the flood. many of the embellishments found therein are said to have some sort of interpretive context, that they are not to be taken literally. Shalom v'Chesed b'Yeshua, Z'ev Yochanan Yes that is a good point. I always tell those who might read these books to read them with their heart and God will tell you what is good and what is not. Like the book of Adam and Eve. As soon as I got top the part were it said that Adam should be worshiped because he was made in the image of God I shout the book.

I have that book and one of the first things it will tell you is that if a doctrinal belief didn't exist at that time it will not be included in the book because nothing was written about it. Some of these doctrinal beliefs that did not exist at that time are the pre-trib concept, the celebration of the birth of Christ and so on. The mid trib concept was the most excepted belief and there were a few who excepted the preterist view. It is a great book of record and it shows us that we are nothing like it was. Most of the early church leaders came from the roots of the Jerusalem church.

...all of which is irrelevant to the issue of how to interpret the image of the whore in chapter 17 of the book of Revelation. I maintain that John used an image from Jewish prophetic literature with which his readers would have been familiar and that his word to them was one of encouragement during the dark days of Roman persecution. You are correct about the symbolism John used. The only thing that John had to discribe what he saw were the thing that were in existance in his day. I believe that for us the book of Revelation is a book for the past, present, and the future and that some of what he wrote can be applied to both the past and the future. You Go Boy!

Which you have yet to provide. I've given you my evidence; what noone can give is understanding, especially when the evidence is rejected. Get used to it Rufus. Some people will reject the most solid evidence regardless of how much proof you provide them

According to scripture that is exactly correct. I also believe that the tribulation that is to come will separate the men from the boys so to speak. It will be a weeding out process and only those who have a truly loving relationship with Christ will be left standing. I believe that we will not be going any where until we have made the ultimate choice which will be to choose between the mark of the beast (the things of this world) and the things of God. The mark of the beast will define who we really are. True Christians or heathens.

Very Good! I do remember what Saddam said and because he believed he was re-incarnated he began to rebuild Babylon very close to the ancient Babylon. I used to think that the Babylon of the bible could be the US because it fits the description but I have since discounted that. I do believe that the Babylon in the bible is the EU and some times the bible refers to Egypt as Babylon and maybe even Israel. I think.

Yes he does. But what does the wrath of God look like? What does the word of God say His wrath is? For nearly 250 years the early church suffered great persecution. They were fed to wild animals, boiled in oil alive, they were skinned alive, they had their heads cut off, they were drawn and quartered, thrown into jail and tortured, disfigured and the list goes on and on. We are talking about believers who were born again and baptized who were persecuted for no other reason then the fact that they would not bow down to pagan Rome and worship excepted Roman gods and practice pagan ritual. Did the believers of the early church suffer great tribulation or did they suffer the wrath of God? Now let us think about this. Wasn't it Paul who held the coats of those who gnashed their teeth on and stoned Steven to death? Wasn't it Paul who was given authority to execute, torture, put into jail and persecute those who believed in Christ? Yes it was! And when Jesus knocked him off of his horse what did Jesus say to him? He said "Why are you persecuting Me"?. So according to Jesus, by persecuting those who believed in Jesus, Paul was persecuting Jesus. Was Jesus suffering the wrath of God or was He suffering great tribulation from Paul? So if the Christians who suffered because of Paul were suffering the wrath of God, how then could Paul tell them that they are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God when before he was converted Paul was the instrument by which they suffered the wrath of God? That is if it was the wrath of God that they were suffering at the hands of Paul. Think about it. Paul with the blessing of both the Roman government and the Sanhedrin traveled around executing, torturing, and putting Christians into jail. My point is this. The wrath of God is not the same thing as great tribulation or tribulation of any kind. Now let us consider this. To day there are believers who are being tortured, having their heads cut off, being held over an open flame in an effort to forcibly make them renounce Christ and convert over to Islam, they are being burnt alive, young women and girls are having acid thrown into their faces and being horribly disfigured and hundreds of thousands are being thrown into jail all because they believe in Christ as Lord of all. Are these Christians suffering the wrath of God or are they. suffering great tribulation? The great tribulation the bible talks about which is to come in the future is not the wrath of God. It is just what the word of God says it is. It is great tribulation. When the wrath of God and the wrath of the Lamb comes to earth we will not be here but we will be here for a period of great tribulation. Why is it that we some how think that we are above those who are dieing daily as we speak for believing in the name of Christ. If you want proof of what Christians are suffering all you have to do is go to the web site of The Voice of the Martyrs.

You do realize that you just called the world's largest Christian denomination disgraceful, right? Your inability to comprehend the thing may not be a railing judgment against anyone other than yourself. I would like to suggest that you take a deep breath, apologize to the majority of Christianity and then try to understand the things you've missed up until this point. The subject of love should be at the top of that list. Tehilah called it like it is oChristiansnmings. Just because it is the worlds largest Christian denomination doesn't mean that they are right. The whole world thought the world was flat until one man made a big deal about it, said they were wrong and proved it. It goes along with what I tell people. We shouldn't even take any preachers word for it. We should always research what our preachers say about scripture because they make mistakes and they can be wrong.An example of this is how all of these high profile preachers are wrong about the pre-trib concept. Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Charles Stanley, Morris Cirillo, J. R Church, Jack Van Impy and many more are pre-tribers and they are teaching the false doctrine of escapism pre-trib concept. By the way they are not the worlds largest Christian denomination. The Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination and they are wrong about allot more then just the pre-trib concept.

Can you explain what these verses mean to you, especially what is in bold? 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, is he not? God Bless, OneLight Replaced God with the Father First of all you have made the same mistake that many have and always have made about these verses. Your highlighted words say"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". The mistake that is always made about this verse is that it is always read or interpreted " TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY IS TO BE IN THE PRESENTS OF THE LORD" but it is always over looked that verse says " WE ARE CONFIDENT, YES, WELL PLEASED TO BE RATHER". You see that word "RATHER" is always over looked. Which means that the verses does not say " To be absent from the body is to be in the presents of the Lord" Instead the verse says that we would "RATHER" be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord". These verses are talking about the flesh which is our house while we are in this world and verse six says just that "while we are at home in the body (of flesh) we are absent from the Lord" So to say " To be absent from the body is to be absent from the Lord" is not written anywhere in the bible, is a misquote of what the word really says which leaves out one word which changes the whole of what the verse is actually saying which leads to and is part of a false doctrinal teaching. Which is "When we die we go to heaven" along with being part of the pre-trib concept as well. Jesus is always our example and we should look at Him as such. So what did Jesus do when He died on that day? Paul says that He first "descended into the Lower reaches of the earth" before He rose from the grave. Is there anywhere in the bible that says that what will happen to us will be different then what happened to our Saviour? No! Dear Brother Massorite, Greetings in the name of the Lord. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. The verse emphasises not ''rather"" but ""confident"" as seen in the frequency of the word confidence, faith and not by sight in the preceding verse. Who are we confident in. The answer is in the Lord and not in man that we will be with the Lord when we die. This is also not the only verse quote in the Bible the suggest that we will be with the Lord when we die, this other verse being just one. Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. compare this verse with: Mar 10:40 but to sit on my right hand or on my left hand is not mine to give; but it is for them for whom it hath been prepared. Not so. the word ""rather'' does not change the meaning of 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, which talks about the flesh as a habitation while we are here and dying which would take us to be with the Lord. Just because Paul included a preference for one option, to be with the Lord does not negate the certainty that we will be with the Lord when we die. The context of a verse do not only hinge on a single word, the context depends on the preceding or in the next couple of verses or even in the flavour or general context of the whole chapter. Read the verse again, it says what it says. rather word doesn't change the flavour of the verse. To claim that we should follow everything Jesus does is ridiculous. No where in the Bible are you asked to be crucified and take on the sins of the World!! That is the prerogative of the Son of God! so is descending to Hades and resurrection by one's own power! pre trib concept does not require going to heaven when we die. Anyway, I would have thought that if you hold to a literal translation of the Bible, The pre-trib wold be the position that fits best. New creature Here is how I live. There is no such thing as the bible indicating, leading us to believe, suggesting, pointing to or any other speculitive assumptions. If the word of God does not say point blank in such a way that it can not be misunderstood. The word of God doesn't say it. So find me some scripture that says that when we die we will go to heaven. Because if the bible doesn't say that when we die we will go to heaven. We don't go to heaven when we die. The only way you can make that verse work for you is to (as I have already said) egnore the word "rather". Other wise the verse is saying that we would RATHER be absent from the body an d present with the Lord. I am not saying that the word "rather" changes the meaning of the verse. I am saying that YOU have changed the meaning of the verse by egnoring the fact the the verse says that we are willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Now I don't expect that we will all be crucified just because Jesus was but I do expect that we will die just as He did and go to the bosom of Abraham just as He did. And when we get to the bosom of Abraham we will be just like Lazarus and Daniel and Samuel and any body else the word of God has recorded as being in the lower reaches of the earth. We will "rest"/sleep until the day when Jesus sends His reapers to wake us and take us to the abode of God. The fact of the matter is that the early church endured great persecution for most of 250 years just because they were believers in Christ and as we are speaking right now there are Christan's who are dieing horrible deaths and being put in prison just because they believe in Christ so don't think that you are above being hanged or burned alive or boiled in oil or fed to wild animals alive or put in jail or being tortured because you believe in Jesus. Because it can happen to you just like it happened to Christ.

Incorrect. The angels are asexual beings. Demons are fallen angels. Matthew 22 Jesus answered and said to them,

I agree, and less defensive would help too. This opens the question if we are to strive to be "think skinned" or "more like Jesus". I choose the latter, which does include turning the other cheek when needed. Still, if we do not tame our words, are we truly doing Gods work or mans? James 3:4-6 Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. OneLight When it comes to speaking about the word plainly we should remember that Jesus who is our example did not pull His punches. He told the religeously estabihed rulers of the day that they were wrong, that they were clean on the outside but dirty on the inside, that they were snakes, serpents and vipers. He even called one of His own deciples satan and called a woman/gentile a dog. The one thing that He and all of the prophets were hated for is the fact that they spoke it like they saw it.

No! The bible says that all including the Jews will bend the knee one day and there is only one coming for the saints according to the bible. The book of life is only opened once at the great white throne judgement. We are judged at our death by Christ.

You go Onelight. I put up with the name calling in the hopes that those who name call will see their sin. Unfortunitly we all do it from time to time.

Ah yesh, the D.S.S i have spent the better part of 15 years researching the Qum'ran texts. so much so that my brother used to call me "Scroll Skull" the Gonzaga University Foley Center (where i live) has several volumes of the D.S.S. with the hebrew/aramaic text on one page and the english translation on the opposite page. not to mention there are literally hundreds of books published by scholars of every background. the problem with all these various books and scholars is that you have various opinions about these mysterious documents, like new age philosophy, Yeshua and Yochanan were Essenes, and other such stuff that are as wacky as they are spaced out. some say the Essenes were mystics and early Kabbalists. but from the research i have done, they weren't. they merely expounded upon various texts like the Book of Enoch, the Books of Adam and Eve, and the many apocalyptic texts of their time. much of their doctrine came from these books. the 200+ fallen angels were of a second falling of angelic beings, the first being that of "Lucifer" who is called Heylel ben Shachar in the Hebrew of Isaiah 14. the Book of the Wars of the Children of Light and Darkness is about the final apocalyptic battle between the followers of the Covenant and the Children of Belial. they believed in the coming of two Messiahs, and the spirits of truth or error influencing the hearts and minds of every one. they were truly a remarkable group, and despite the disagreement i have with many of their ideas, i would have loved to have hung out with them Yochanan I am loving what you have posted Yochanan. I believe that the 200 fallen angels are the angels in prison spoken of in Peter. Though there is alot of stuff out there I tell everyone to read with their heart. You know it is kind of like chewing up the watermelon but spitting out the seeds.

Good question. I don't think I have ever found where in scripture that it says that demons are fallen angels although that is what I believe and I believe it because of all of the scriptures that tell us what happens to men when we die. And the bible says nothing at all about demons being the souls of men. We know by scripture that there are three groups of angels which are those that are in prison, those which were cast down to cast down to earth and those who are the heavenly host.

Can you explain what these verses mean to you, especially what is in bold? 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, is he not? God Bless, OneLight Replaced God with the Father First of all you have made the same mistake that many have and always have made about these verses. Your highlighted words say"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". The mistake that is always made about this verse is that it is always read or interpreted " TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY IS TO BE IN THE PRESENTS OF THE LORD" but it is always over looked that verse says " WE ARE CONFIDENT, YES, WELL PLEASED TO BE RATHER". You see that word "RATHER" is always over looked. Which means that the verses does not say " To be absent from the body is to be in the presents of the Lord" Instead the verse says that we would "RATHER" be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord". These verses are talking about the flesh which is our house while we are in this world and verse six says just that "while we are at home in the body (of flesh) we are absent from the Lord" So to say " To be absent from the body is to be absent from the Lord" is not written anywhere in the bible, is a misquote of what the word really says which leaves out one word which changes the whole of what the verse is actually saying which leads to and is part of a false doctrinal teaching. Which is "When we die we go to heaven" along with being part of the pre-trib concept as well. Jesus is always our example and we should look at Him as such. So what did Jesus do when He died on that day? Paul says that He first "descended into the Lower reaches of the earth" before He rose from the grave. Is there anywhere in the bible that says that what will happen to us will be different then what happened to our Saviour? No!

Can you explain what these verses mean to you, especially what is in bold? 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, is he not? God Bless, OneLight Replaced God with the Father First of all you have made the same mistake that many have and always made about these verses. Your highlited words say"We are confident,

Hello my Brother The plain truth of the matter is that there is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it clearly states " When we die we will go to heaven". So to say that we do go to heaven when we die is to state that which is not written in the bible. Because if we did go to heaven when we die the word of God would clearly tell us we do and there would be no bout adout it. A little humor there.

Good stuff. We should remember that the antichrist will do what no one else has been able to do. Which is bring peace between Israel and the Palestinians. who ever the antichrist will be this much I know. We who are aware, in tone with God, and have the wisdom of the written word will know him when we see him.

Me too. Are you saying that the woman, spoken of in Revelation has already been revealed for the first centuy christians, who you claim that John wrote if for, so the christians of today are reading about a non-coming prophecy, because revelation is a book of prophecy. You are sounding like a preterist. It does sound to me that Rufus is a "Preterits" who believes that nearly all of the book of Revelation has already taken place. The problem with the preterits concept is that they have to move the date of the writing of the book of Revelation up to before 70 AD. Instead of the actual year of 96 AD. They also have to bend history and scripture to justify what they believe.