wingnut-

I have six different versions of the bible here, I went through each of them, and not one of them capitalizes he in that passage, from my KJV to my NIV. I guess I must be seeing things then. Look for yourself. I guess you didn't read the footnotes. As far as taking an Internet rendition (which is clearly more recent), I'll go with my physical KJV in my hands that does not capitalize he as more accurate. I don't subscribe to the "if it says it on the Internet it must be true crowd."

Hey bible gazer, how does what you state below measure up with the above? The passage says it's a new song, and that no one else can learn it, so how do you conclude a) it's the same song, and b) that the four living creatures and the twenty four elders know it? I'm also curious how you conclude these are two different groups of 144,000, based on the following verses it appears to me they are the same group. You will notice in the first passage it states "we", meaning more than one, which is more specific in the second passage. Revelation 7:3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.

The passage does not mention the Holy Spirit, nor does any other passage in scripture assign this title to the Holy Spirit. I have six different versions of the bible here, I went through each of them, and not one of them capitalizes he in that passage, from my KJV to my NIV. I understand scripture just fine, no need to get hostile because you cannot prove your claim. I will challenge anyone who says something that is unscriptural to back it up with scripture, you cannot. What you propose is that the Holy Spirit is going to abandon mankind at a time when they need Him most, and it's ludicrous. As far as who I believe the restrainer may be, let's look at scripture in regards to the end time for a likely candidate. Daniel 10:21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince). Daniel 12:1 At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. Michael is the archangel appointed to guard the Jewish people, he is only mentioned in these three instances by name, do you think that's coincidence? Furthermore get a dictionary, look up counselor, comforter, and restrainer and see which description is vastly different. Is it not a widely held belief that angels intercede on our behalf in matters of the spiritual realm? We pray, they take up our cause?

Where in scripture is the Holy Spirit ever referred to as the restrainer? Counselor, yes, comforter, yes, restrainer, not once.

Once word gets out to the majority, things could get hairy.

This report seems to have some inaccuracies in it, the initial indication is that the pair were planning to hit the Via rail where it picks up passengers from Buffalo, NY entering Canada via Amtrak. This was reported locally here given our close proximity to Canada, also on CBC Windsor which I get locally, and a friend in Toronto relayed the same.

I appreciate your response, and I apologize for beginning before you had finished, although I did wait nearly a week before finally responding. I don't require an immediate response, so please continue on with your posts and you can come back to me later if you so choose. As you pointed out in response to me on another thread, it's only in the best interest of the reader to get another view of these events. With that being said, I'll get straight to the heart of what you proposed to me as far as showing that these two events (the rapture and the second coming) occur at the same time. The word rapture does not appear in scripture anywhere for starters, which is rather odd considering the word itself comes from a Greek origin. The New Testament of course being largely written in Greek should contain at least a mention of this somewhere, which begs the question why not? Considering the great importance of this, and in what you propose the great significance of it, surely the apostles or Jesus would have mentioned it. Of course the concept of the rapture comes from scripture, the origins for the original wording meaning, a catching away, or a gathering. Of course we see this very thing happen in Matthew 24, it is precisely what Jesus was talking about, and what the apostles later taught. These events appear similar because they are going to occur almost simultaneously. He will gather us as He comes, this is what scripture states. The apostles learned this from Jesus, and they speak no differently on the matter. The second coming is scriptural, the rapture is a theological creation of man that has taken on a life of its own. The fact that it does not appear in the text should speak volumes, because when we are gathered it is of special significance, we will be forever with The Lord! The only explanation for this absence is because the event is overshadowed by an even greater event, our Redeemer is returning! As far as the second coming passage in Matthew 24, it is very clear from the passage that this occurs in the heavens, how you continue to insist otherwise is beyond me. Post the passage and indicate where you see a reference to land in there. As for the elect, scripture is clear on who the elect are and the passage in Matthew does not differentiate regardless of how many times you insist it does. You're also not addressing the prophecy from Daniel 12 which makes your proposal impossible. It does not allow for another visit, everyone means everyone. Daniel 12:1,2 ....But at that time your people---everyone whose name is found written in the book---will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. To clarify one more time for the reader, I am going to post a passage from Matthew 24 and compare it to a passage in Revelation. This passage from Matthew is one of the centerpieces for the pre-trib rapture. Matthew 24:39 .....That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." With all due respect, I read your post fine, you placed the emphasis on Israel and put the Gentiles in parentheses as an afterthought, this is not how God views us. That was one purpose for my posting the passages in Romans that specifically states in chapter 10 verse 12 that there is no difference between us. You still haven't addressed the question regarding how they can turn from a faith they do not have, or why you are inconsistent in your application of Jesus addressing the disciples as the church vs Israel. I'll add one more point to emphasize why Jesus is speaking to the church in Matthew 24. Matthew 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. When you consider how this is said, it illustrates who is being addressed. If the Jews were the target audience why wouldn't He have just said, 'then flee to the mountains'? The church is not to flee, this is why the specification I suspect. As for the 144,000, nowhere does it state they are witnesses, or have any part in this, in fact the above verse would indicate they will flee to the mountains, kinda hard to witness from there. They do have two specific roles in scripture, by all appearances to be carried out in the millennial kingdom. Revelation 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. I do understand that you believe you are correct, and while you are entitled to think I am incorrect, I am also entitled to think you are incorrect. As far as debating, that is entirely up to you, but when I see something that doesn't align with scripture as I see it, I will continue to take up the pen. I assure you also, I read every word you posted. God bless you also brother Parker.

It is very sad indeed

The church I was raised in taught it that way, in conjunction with the pre-trib position that the church would be removed. I'm not implying that this is taught by all churches that hold a pre-trib position, but I do believe for many that is where the teaching comes from. I've come to realize this is not the case and agree with your conclusion, the 144,000 serve a different purpose.

Nice addition Marv, hadn't considered that.

Something occurred to me about the 2 witnesses recently that I thought would be pertinent to share. I've felt confident for some time that Enoch and Elijah will be the two mentioned, but an answer to the question of the olive branches and lampstands leapt out at me. Enoch (Gentile) Elijah (Jew)

My jaw is still on the floor after reading this, it's hard to believe you are serious, but in case you are I'll just go ahead and refute this so no one is confused. Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. There is no judgement mentioned because believers will not be judged, our sins are removed as far as the east is from the west, covered by the blood of the Lamb. Jesus indicates that the events are simultaneous in Matthew 24:31 Daniel 12:1,2 ...But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. The second coming is imminent, scripture does not mention any other coming. If only believers enter the millennial kingdom then it would seem you run into the same problem with who is having children and re-populating the earth, or perhaps the answer to this is found elsewhere. Daniel 11:34 When they fall they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

There is a big difference between deliverance and removal, Israel was delivered from Egypt but they still went through the plagues. Can you think of a more powerful act than seeing everyone afflicted from the judgements except for believers, I can't. Thessalonians 5:9-10 states we are not appointed to suffer His wrath, which is consistent with what scripture states in Revelation. We will not suffer it because it is targeted specifically at those with the mark of the beast and those who worship him. Paul makes no assertion that we will be removed, instead he reinforces that we will meet Jesus in the air at the same time as those who have already passed. This is consistent with what Jesus said as well as the prophets. Daniel 12:1,2 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." The Greek word "ek" which the site translates as "from" means more than they presented, including being translated as "out". Look up G1537 Primarily meaning out of, from, of, as spoken of such objects which were before in another. However, "apo" (575), of or from, is used of such objects as before were on, by or with another, but are now separated from it, i.e., they are not in it, to which ek corresponds. If something is in something else, then the separation from it is expressed with ek, out of, while if it is near it, on it, with it, than apo is used. Ek is used either in respect of place, time, source or origin. In Matthew 24 Jesus gives us a clear, chronological timeline of the end times, there is no mention anywhere in scripture of a "secret" coming, just a second coming. In John chapter 6 Jesus makes a deliberate effort to repeatedly state that He will raise believers up on the last day. The prophets point to this happening not long before judgement day, there really is no question in my mind. When it comes down to accepting the teaching of man or of Jesus, I choose to believe Jesus every time. What gets lost in these discussions is that one doesn't have to be a biblical scholar to grasp what is shown to us, nor is it necessary to speak Greek or Aramaic to feel confident that the bible you hold in your hands is a comprehensive and complete rendition of Gods Word that He preserved for us to trust in today. We can trust in it because God promised it would stand, so no one reading this should doubt that their bible isn't a sufficient translation. There is a simple reason why the apostles believed the second coming was imminent, and that is because Jesus wanted to deliver this message to the church, in particular, those who would be alive at His return. He knew full well that the apostles would not be alive, they did not. His message was directed at the future, at His church that He entrusted these men to establish. The second coming is imminent, it will happen, so be ready as our Lord instructed!

It's not you gdemoss, it's not working for anyone, it will be fixed at some point I'm sure

I think the disagreement lays in the understanding of what it means to be "kept" from something. The word keep implies preservation or protection, not removal. (E.g. Can you keep a secret? Keep me safe.) We see the example of how God does this over and over in scripture, including the ten plagues and Jesus' death. The wrath of God is specifically aimed at those who have the mark of the beast or worship him. Revelation 16:2 The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. Revelation 16:5,6 ...."You are just in these judgements, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; 6 for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve." This is no different than what God did in Egypt, those with the Holy Spirit will be passed over, covered by the blood of the Lamb. Well according to Revelation there are certain things referred to specifically as wrath, such as the 7 bowls of Gods wrath, and then particularly this verse which indicates those who have survived through everything to this point as being particularly different. Revelation 6:16,17 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" This incident follows the 6th seal, which happens to coincide with the events Jesus tells us mark His return, which of course follow the rapture from my understanding. It's also interesting that they would break it down to a "day" when we consider Jesus' words in scripture. John 6:39 "And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given me, but raise them up on the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:54 "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to me Jesus was making a point here.

The first and great purpose of God is to save souls, whether they be Jew or Gentile. While I agree that the 7 years of tribulation are a fulfillment of God's promise to Israel via the prophet Daniel, there is nothing scripturally that states this time excludes those grafted in following Jesus. The tribulation is a global event, not isolated to Israel. First lets examine some excerpts from Romans 9 and 10 for clarification. Romans 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." The above passage (particularly the bolded section) points to a very important statement that Jesus makes in addressing the disciples in Matthew 24, which should clarify who the target audience is ( the church), and is not (Israel). Matthew 24:9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other," Again I ask the question, how does one turn away from a faith they don't have? Looking on to more of Romans in chapter 10 I think the need for the church becomes even clearer. Romans 10:1 Brothers, my hearts desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to Gods righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-- the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on Him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of The Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent?As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the Word of Christ. There is one additional thing to consider as to the purpose of the church being present. I believe it was the disciple James who was beheaded for his faith, that was joined in death by his accuser. The individual after witnessing James' courage and steadfastness in facing his impending death, converted to Christianity and was beheaded alongside him. What a powerful witness we can make to both Jew and Gentile during the tribulation. In all fairness to Daniel, Jesus hadn't come yet, so he may or may not have been privy to the knowledge of Jesus or the coming church. The Gentiles were grafted in following Jesus' resurrection, so I submit he was praying for us, whether he was aware of it or not is really not significant. Jesus did say that He had fulfilled the law and the prophets. It is important though to keep what Daniel had to say in context, in fact, Jesus instructs us not only to read Daniel, but to understand it. (Matthew 24:15) Unlike Revelation, Daniel appears to follow a chronological timeline, so following along we see this in chapter 11 Daniel 11:31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him. 33 Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." 36 "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard of things against the God of gods." Now lets look ahead just a little bit to chapter 12. Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." And a quick reminder of what Paul wrote in I Thess 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left til the coming of The Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. And a quick glance to Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.

Let's heed the bolded part of what Paul wrote and see what The Lord said. Matthew 24:29-32 "Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken' At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near." Now compare this passage to Revelation 6:12-13 and it is clear these are the same. Revelation 6:12-13 I watched as He opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The opening of the sixth seal is well into the tribulation, not prior to it, and this is the sign Jesus points to for His return. I agree with the above, this is the first resurrection, but lets take a closer look at Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the Word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. This clearly places believers from the tribulation in the rapture or first resurrection, meaning again that it is not before the tribulation, but at the 7th trumpet. I agree with the above, which is why it's confusing to me that anyone would place an additional coming (call it coming 1.5 I guess) that Jesus makes no mention of. He is only coming one more time, and even points to the signs which immediately precede this. I'm also confused as to the underlined statement above, in a previous discussion you claimed that Matthew 24 is not for the church even though it is an address to His disciples, this is an inconsistent approach. Matthew 24 is for the church, and once a person arrives at this conclusion, the pre-trib theory becomes negated. To clarify that it is for the church, examine verse 3. Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. This verse leaves little doubt as to whom the target audience was, it was just Jesus and the men He chose to start His church.

My sympathy is for those they killed and injured, and for their families, I will however pray for all involved

Taking a page from North Korea's play book it seems, completely delusional

I think where the confusion enters is that what we see as impossible, is totally possible for God.

I believe it will be a physical thing, to prevent someone from buying or selling this seems more practical. I mean considering at many establishments now you're lucky if the cashier acknowledges you, and without a physical mark they would kinda have to. And not just acknowledge you, but basically ask about your religious affiliation, I just don't see that happening.

I turned on the news when I read that, and they just said the AP got it wrong, and there has been no arrest. The AP got it wrong, now there's a shock lol. The media is in such a hurry to be first they don't bother to make sure they're right.

Yes, on April 9th in Bushehr, their nuclear place, 37 died Right, and I wondered if the earthquake was natural of man-made. The thought entered my mind considering their maniacal desire for nuclear weapons, but at this point that's just speculation.

Yes, on April 9th in Bushehr, their nuclear place, 37 died

I understand, I just wanted to express that it is not my position either, I only believe in a Second Coming, no 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc.