wingnut-

A minor offense would be a slight of some sort. An example that comes to mind would be if all of your friends got together for an event but forgot to include you. What you're describing above is not what I would classify as a minor offense, that is threatening, hostile behavior intended to intimidate. God bless

Well, we agree they are people at least. I agree trying to determine who those 24 are is merely speculation, but the 12 sons of Jacob possibly account for half of them. I also think it could really be anyone from earlier OT writings, names like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, even Jacob himself would be possibilities. The apostles I am not so sure about, in the grand scheme of time they don't really fit with the idea of elder to me, but I suppose we will see. As far as the timing, the 24 elders are there from the beginning of Revelation, so again, it doesn't align with what you present. All those tombs that opened up though certainly does explain why they are there, and when that happened. Happy birthday brother! God bless

Two different Mary's as far as I can tell, Mary was a popular name at that time.

I think you are misunderstanding me, and I am sorry that I've upset you and would prefer to continue discussing things with you as I am still not sure exactly what it is that you believe. Or perhaps I should say, I don't yet understand how you are arriving there. Several weeks ago when we first spoke you called me a breath of fresh air, so I just want to remind you I am the same person now I was then, a brother in Christ. I do accept the OT prophecies, but you share absolutely no references to scriptures in your posts for me to consider, just your words. Now, as I said earlier to your post about when the 69th week ended, I want to share with you the scripture that explains why I disagree. The thread is about the key to prophecy being the prophets, this is prophecy regarding the promised Messiah, and how it fits in. If you take the time to consider what I am about to share, maybe you will understand why I said "not quite". So let's go back a bit to where things begin, just a little history of the 10th of Nissan. Exodus 12:2 “This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you. Exodus 12:3 Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household. Another event that took place on the 10th of Nissan. Joshua 4:19 The people came up out of the Jordan on the tenth day of the first month, and they encamped at Gilgal on the east border of Jericho. Entering the promised land. So, the very day the Israelites entered the promised land is connected to the choosing of the Passover lamb. So let's fast forward to the triumphal entry. The Passover lamb is to be killed on the 14th of Nissan, which is a Thursday. So going by scripture, see how this works. John 12:1 Six days before the Passover, Jesus therefore came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. That puts Jesus in Bethany on Friday, the 8th of Nissan. Now, Friday evening into Saturday evening was Shabbat, the 9th of Nissan, so this was a day of rest for Him in Bethany. This brings us to the 10th of Nissan, Sunday morning. John 12:12 The next day the large crowd that had come to the feast heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem. 13 So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!” The Jewish custom on the 10th of Nissan is to sing Psalm 118 and the choosing of the Passover lamb, which is displayed in verse 13 above. So follow out Psalm 118 and the prophetic nature of not only the song, but in how His triumphal entry coincides within it. Psalm 118:14 The Lord is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation. 15 Glad songs of salvation are in the tents of the righteous: “The right hand of the Lord does valiantly, 16 the right hand of the Lord exalts, the right hand of the Lord does valiantly!” 17 I shall not die, but I shall live, and recount the deeds of the Lord. 18 The Lord has disciplined me severely, but he has not given me over to death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness, that I may enter through them and give thanks to the Lord. 20 This is the gate of the Lord; the righteous shall enter through it. 21 I thank you that you have answered me and have become my salvation. 22 The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. 23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes. 24 This is the day that the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it. This is where they would be singing Hosanna, in the following verse. 25 Save us (Hosanna), we pray, O Lord! O Lord, we pray, give us success! 26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We bless you from the house of the Lord. Jesus enters Jerusalem and then delivers this prophecy. Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” And the Passover lamb is chosen Psalm 118:27 The Lord is God, and he has made his light to shine upon us. Bind the festal sacrifice with cords, up to the horns of the altar! Does that make sense to you now? God bless

Not exactly. Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

I am not sure exactly what you are asking me, but what I was pointing out is that the 69th week of Daniel ended on April 6th, 32 AD, when Jesus first rode into Jerusalem on the foal of a donkey. As to when the 70th week begins that is debatable, some believe it continued right into it. Some of them believe the 70th week went on to completion at that time, some believe that half of the 70th week has passed, and many believe the entire 70th week was all future from that point. As far as the prophecy from Isaiah, what I am asking is for you to list out a sequence of events as you see them, and insert where you believe what Isaiah spoke of falls into that timeline. God bless

That does not align with the prophecy from Isaiah. Again, when does that prophecy take place according to you? Isaiah 11:10 In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. 12 He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. Ephraim (the northern kingdom) and Judah (the southern kingdom) do not reunite until this point. The dispersed (going all the way back to the Assyrian invasion) are gathered at this time. God bless

This isn't quite accurate on the timing you state, just want to clarify. The first time Jesus ever allowed his apostles or the Jews to call Him King was the day He rode into Jerusalem on the foal of a donkey. This was Psalm Sunday, April 6, 32 A.D., exactly 173,880 days (69 weeks = 483 yrs x 360 days = 173,880 days) after the command to rebuild Jerusalem. God bless

It's actually not untenable or unprecedented. Consider Revelation chapter 12 verses 1-5, a historical depiction to lend understanding to the symbolic characters within the prophecy. I see that passage from Zechariah in the same fashion as there is no biblical support for the two kingdoms reuniting prior to the very end. God bless

Yes, but that is the point I am making about that passage. The dispersed from Assyria do not return prior to that, they are still lost at the point and time where we place that prophecy from Isaiah. That does not allow for them joining back together, splitting apart, and taking part of the end times scenario surrounding the beast and his kingdom. The only thing lost about the 10 tribes is their heritage to them, not to God. Now if what you are suggesting is that people from the surrounding nations that don't realize they are even of Jewish descent account for the 10 kings then that is the only scenario this makes sense. However, that still does not account for your scenario regarding the two staffs, because at no point prior to this prophecy are those two sisters (Ephraim and Judah) reunited in scripture. God bless

Exactly, so how can it be then that they are the 10 horns if they don't re-enter the land until that time? Also, how can they be the remnant of God's and be opposed to Him as you are suggesting? Unless I am misunderstanding something here.

Hello breath of life, I wouldn't say what you present is completely without merit, however, there are some serious obstacles that have not yet been touched on by you. So let's start with the 10 tribes that were lost. One of those tribes is Benjamin, who were part of the southern kingdom. When the Assyrian invasion began, they slowly picked the northern kingdom apart, bit by bit. Samaria in the land of Ephraim was the last stronghold to fall for the northern kingdom, but the conquest did not end there. The southern kingdom was invaded also, and if not for Sennacherib's arrogant mocking of God it would have fallen as well. The only city left to be conquered was Jerusalem itself, which God preserved. This left the two tribes of Judah and Levites, because the Levites being priests lived amongst the other tribes but the larger portion in Jerusalem where the temple was. So those other 10 tribes went into exile in Assyria, which stretched from Egypt up along the Great Sea nearly reaching the Black Sea to the north before horseshoeing around and back down to the Persian Gulf. The Israelites were scattered and dispersed all across that region, while other peoples from other conquered nations were redistributed into the land of the lost tribes. Now, the biggest problem you have is reconciling what the prophets have to say regarding those nations, and when it is they return to the land. Here is one such example I speak of. Isaiah 11:11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. 12 He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. 14 But they shall swoop down on the shoulder of the Philistines in the west, and together they shall plunder the people of the east. They shall put out their hand against Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites shall obey them. 15 And the Lord will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt, and will wave his hand over the River with his scorching breath, and strike it into seven channels, and he will lead people across in sandals. 16 And there will be a highway from Assyria for the remnant that remains of his people, as there was for Israel when they came up from the land of Egypt. Now, explain how that works for us. Exactly when do you see this taking place in the timeline? God bless

Thanks for the clarification, I cannot disagree with your conclusion as stated.

Hmmmmmm Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Well, if its any consolation I shook off the teaching I was raised under in regards to eschatology, so nothing pre-programmed here. As for the preterist view, I do in fact reject it. In fact, your claim that what Peter wrote in the passage I posted was speaking to something that already happened doesn't hold up under scrutiny, Peter is speaking about a future event. He isn't speaking to them in regards to something that has happened, but something that will happen. Take the very first sentence for example. II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Now, if Peter were speaking about something that had already taken place, he would have written something like this. But the day of the Lord came like a thief, and the heavens passed away with a roar, the heavenly bodies were burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works done on it were exposed. Big difference between the two, as you can see. God bless

Well, this is how I view it taking into account whom is being addressed in the passage. Jeremiah 31:20 Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he my darling child? For as often as I speak against him, I do remember him still. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I will surely have mercy on him, declares the Lord. 21 “Set up road markers for yourself; make yourself guideposts; consider well the highway, the road by which you went. Return, O virgin Israel, return to these your cities. 22 How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man.” For the majority of this chapter, the Lord is addressing Ephraim, which earlier on in the chapter is referred to as His firstborn. Now keep in mind the Assyrian exile, where the northern kingdom was taken into captivity and the 10 tribes became "lost". The final stronghold to fall in that conflict was Samaria, which was within the borders of Ephraim's portion of land. Now consider this chapter from Ezekiel, though I'm only going to post the beginning segment, the rest I recommend reading on your own. Ezekiel 23 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. 3 They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled. 4 Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem. So, to answer your general point as I incorporate all the information available to us in scripture regarding Israel, and how God designates them, I see the woman encircling the man to be speaking to these two daughters in Ezekiel returning to God and resettling the area cities surrounding New Jerusalem. I also think these two sisters factor into the understanding of the woman in Revelation 12 and 17. God bless

It is fair to call it an assumption, I wouldn't disagree with that. However the term elder is not unique to Revelation, and it is only used in regards to human beings any other time it is used. As far as timing goes, it doesn't conflict with timing on my end. God bless

Tell that to Peter, or any number of the OT prophets. II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. God bless

Brother you can believe whatever you want to believe, doesn't matter to me. You can call it an inappropriate interpretation, highlight words like poor, and whatever else you wish to do, I will just stick with the understanding I am led to, regardless of whether you like it or not. I could go on and on about how poor or inappropriate it is to try and dismiss that this clearly states AFTER and you want to pretend it doesn't. I'm sure you've noticed there are 24 elders in heaven before, but I don't recall ever seeing how you believe they got there. God bless

This is one of the most encouraging posts I've seen in years, thanks. God bless

John is reporting the Revelation of Jesus Christ regarding the end times, in which there are only 2 resurrections, one for the living (believers dead or alive), and one for the dead (unbelievers). I understand you don't see this yet, but here are a couple of questions for you to consider. First, how did the 24 elders get to heaven? At what point were they resurrected? The next question is related to your reference to the parables, where we are told the tares are gathered first. The thing to keep in mind here is the process by which wheat is harvested. The field is cut down, and the wheat is left to sit in the sun for 3 days before it produces the finishing touches to bring forth the finest grain. So the harvest itself of the wheat is not when it is gathered, but when the field is cut. Now, considering this and what we are told by John in Revelation regarding the gathering of the elect and their resurrection coming before the resurrection of the tares, doesn't that indicate that the resurrection is not the moment in which the gathering of the tares occurs? What happens to an unbeliever when they die? Where do they go? Perhaps that is the question to be answered. God bless

When I was a teen my church brought some guy in to speak to the youth group. He had a bunch of fancy equipment and tried convincing everyone that there were messages on the music. It was nothing but garbled noise to my ears, I think people hear what they want to hear with that stuff. As far as lyrics themselves, they are pretty straightforward, some are blatantly wrong, some are a little more disguised, and some are straight from the bible. God bless

Next year I have to get mine when my current license expires.

Not a fan of heavy metal, and there are plenty of rock bands I don't care for because of the lyrics. But, there are many that I do like and enjoy listening to. God bless

Because it is speaking to what is accomplished as a result, upon completion. Why does it specify it comes AFTER? Because it does maybe? I mean, you would have to ask God why He arranges things the way He does.