wingnut-

I don't think our withdrawal from Syria constitutes us leaving them all alone. I believe the decision was made because the current administration is confident Israel can handle the situation without our presence. If that were to change, I believe we would send troops back in without question. Is it possible that the buildup from Iran and Russia has some connection to prophecy? It is certainly possible, but merely speculation at this point. I don't believe it does. As Zemke pointed out, the Ezekiel 38 war is against a city with no walls that is not expecting any trouble. If the walls come down, and peace is established, then it would be possible. Personally I believe the Ezekiel 38 war is what will occur at the end of the millennium. God bless

No, you understood me correctly. I do not believe we will be here for that final hour, as the gathering takes place at His coming like a thief. I agree with you, but not on the timing. What I mean is, honestly, there won't be many Christians still alive by the time we reach this point, and those that are will most likely be imprisoned. Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear: 10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. What we have is a 42 month period in which war is waged on the saints, an extermination if you will. Some slain by the sword, some taken captive and most of that group probably executed. Our purification is based on our faith in Christ, much like the persecution the early church faced. We are made white by Him, and Him alone, and our witness will be displayed in how we meet our end, only by the power of the Holy Spirit. Remember the call in scripture, do not love your lives. Now during this same period of time, the faithful remnant of Israel is being protected in the wilderness. Hosea gives a pretty good account of what is taking place with them, and also Isaiah. Revelation also speaks of the two groups and the different manner in which they experience the end times. Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

I may have just misread it as well originally. Regardless, I am encouraged you see the same thing I do, your thread in many ways mirrors some that I have posted in the past. I believe that hour of trial that we are gone for, is the trial by fire that is spoken of by the OT prophets for Israel, specifically Zechariah saying that the Lord will personally bring the 1/3 through the fire.

I was also a pre-tribber for most of my life, probably for the same reasons, but roughly seven years ago I began to see things quite differently in scripture. I agree with what you see for the most part, in particular regarding Revelation 16 and the announcement that He comes as a thief. This is when the gathering takes place, but one slight variance is that you stated this happens in the middle of the wrath, whereas the scripture you cited occurs near the end, after the sixth bowl/vial. I see what takes place after this as the final hour, which is spoken of frequently. For example, Jesus tells us in the gospel accounts that no one knows the day, or hour. There are also several other places on the subject that speak of a very specific hour, such as Revelation 18, and this one, which is often used to support pre-trib, but actually speaks against it when taking all the information into account. Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. Another area of interest is in regards to the harvest. Revelation 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.”16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia. So we see in the harvest of the earth, the wheat is gathered, followed right after by the tares, which coincides with the information regarding the battle of Armageddon. You may have already concluded this as well, other than the specific hour. Besides this slight difference, we are of the same opinion. Not quite post-trib for me, but only an hour separation. God bless

Definition of the (Entry 1 of 4) 1a—used as a function word to indicate that a following noun or noun equivalent is definite or has been previously specified by context or by circumstance put the cat out b—used as a function word to indicate that a following noun or noun equivalent is a unique or a particular member of its class the President the Lord c—used as a function word before nouns that designate natural phenomena or points of the compass the night is cold d—used as a function word before a noun denoting time to indicate reference to what is present or immediate or is under consideration in the future e—used as a function word before names of some parts of the body or of the clothing as an equivalent of a possessive adjective how's the arm today f—used as a function word before the name of a branch of human endeavor or proficiency the law g—used as a function word in prepositional phrases to indicate that the noun in the phrase serves as a basis for computation sold by the dozen h—used as a function word before a proper name (as of a ship or a well-known building)the Mayflower i—used as a function word before a proper name to indicate the distinctive characteristics of a person or thing the John Doe that we know wouldn't lie j—used as a function word before the plural form of a surname to indicate all the members of a family the Johnsons k—used as a function word before the plural form of a numeral that is a multiple of ten to denote a particular decade of a century or of a person's life life in the twenties l—used as a function word before the name of a commodity or any familiar appurtenance of daily life to indicate reference to the individual thing, part, or supply thought of as at hand talked on the telephone m—used as a function word to designate one of a class as the best, most typical, best known, or most worth singling out this is the life —sometimes used before a personal name to denote the most prominent bearer of that name

I Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

I am not claiming that is not what is written, I am simply pointing out that you cannot separate these two things. You are erecting another strawman here by attempting to attach claims I did not make. It is simple, the only way these two statements can both be true, is if they are speaking of the same city. Matthew 23:35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.” ALL means ALL, it includes those Jesus spoke of in Matthew 23. The title Mother of Harlots does not imply originator of all harlots, that is a faulty premise and conclusion you are drawing yourself, and not supported by any evidence. Mother of harlots simply means she gave birth to harlots, not every harlot. Jerusalem is the only city to be called a mother of harlots in scripture, let's just stick to what is said. Of course you are, as you did not address a single question presented to you on the matter, instead you regurgitated the same premise that does not hold up. David is no longer on the throne materially, neither are any of his descendants materially on a throne. Jerusalem hasn't had a king for thousands of years now materially, they do not dwell in the land unbothered, nor have they dwelt in the land unbothered for thousands of years. You want to keep cherry picking one verse from II Samuel 7 and disregard the entirety of the prophecy which disproves your claim. Another example from Hebrews that directly addresses the irrelevance of the material for you to not address. The people in question... Hebrews 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— The truth of the matter regarding materials..... Hebrews 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Conclusion, your premise is invalid. David did not receive the promise, yet reigned from Jerusalem, proving yet again that the material and the spiritual do not go hand in hand related to the promise. Earthly Jerusalem is not, nor has ever been the promise. Material ways equate to spiritual insight? I would be amused if you weren't actually serious. Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. This is spiritual insight. God bless

Merry Christmas everyone, God bless.

It's not an addition at all, it is called deductive reasoning. You see, if even 1 righteous person was attributed to Jerusalem by Jesus, it would exclude all other cities. You can't have a partial truth, the fact that anyone was placed on Jerusalem means that they all are. And it is all the biblical prophets as well, which excludes everywhere else. What you're claiming here is this, all the prophets and the righteous are on mystery Babylon, except for those from Abel to Zechariah and the righteous up to the point Jesus said this. This is the very definition of erecting a straw man. The land, and a city built on the land are two very different things. Attempting to equate 2 Samuel 7 to anything other than spiritual is mind boggling. Who is sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem right now? When was the last time Jerusalem had a physical king sitting on a throne? Who is the descendant of David's sitting on that throne in Jerusalem right now? II Samuel 7:10 And I will appoint a place for my people Israel and will plant them, so that they may dwell in their own place and be disturbed no more. And violent men shall afflict them no more, as formerly, 11 from the time that I appointed judges over my people Israel. And I will give you rest from all your enemies. Moreover, the Lord declares to you that the Lord will make you a house. 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, 15 but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’” To try and say the two cannot be separated, material versus spiritual, one has to deny thousands of years of history, large chunks of the bible, including the Babylonian exile, Roman occupation, Israel being re-established as a nation in 1948, up to and including the present time where any claim that they currently live undisturbed is ludicrous. I honestly don't even know how to respond to it lol. I'll tell you what, you go ahead and read through that chapter which is all about Jerusalem being not only a harlot, but a unique harlot, and how her abominations are distinctly different from any other nation's abominations, and then explain to me in the context of that chapter what the proverb "like mother, like daughter" is about. If you can provide an answer to that, within the context of the chapter, then perhaps you can convince me I am mistaken. God bless

I don't disagree with you on the aspect of false religion being a key component. Where we disagree and will continue to disagree, is the fact that mystery Babylon is clearly identified as a city, not a religion. When scripture says it is a city, I will not try to make it something other than a city. Yes, and you can read all about the mother of harlots and how her abominations are far greater than anyone else's in Ezekiel 16. God bless

Revelation 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. Revelation 11:13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. Just from the two passages in Revelation above, we see that Jerusalem does not endure. Whatever the city is come the Millennial kingdom, it will not be the Jerusalem that stands today. Whether God puts up a temporary replacement in some miraculous fashion or not remains to be seen, but the promise in scripture has never been, nor will ever be about the Jerusalem that stands today. Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. Well, you have to remember that the passage in question is counting every single biblical prophet there was for starters. Then when you look beyond the OT prophets which are all attributed to Jerusalem, you have John the Baptist (killed by Herod, a Jew), and the most important factor, Jesus. Jesus was crucified at the behest of the Jewish people when they chose to free Barabbas and called for Jesus' crucifixion. This is of course the most important link, and the explanation behind placing all who have ever been slain on one city. Jesus died once, for all, and for all sins, including murder. He conquered death and sin on the cross, and it was all done within the city of Jerusalem. This is why He said that it was ALL on that generation, because it was that generation that crucified Him. It was the very men He said this to that were most instrumental in stirring up others against Him which led to His death on the cross. There simply is no other city on the face of the earth that this can be, or ever will be true of, because Jesus will not be crucified again. I suspect that is why so many reject the idea that it is Jerusalem, however, as you correctly state, it is at the center of God's plan. What gets overlooked, is that it is at the center of the enemy's plan as well, because not understanding the spiritual things of scripture, he mistakes the present Jerusalem for the eternal one and believes taking this city and setting up his kingdom there will somehow thwart God's plan. This is precisely why Jerusalem has been a source of contention all along, the city that drives men mad. You can rest assured God is not concerned with an earthly city, only the people that dwell in it. Revelation 11: 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. Now in Ezekiel 16, the symbolic link to Sodom and the other surrounding nations are also drawn, where they are called sisters of the great harlot Jerusalem. All of this, is prophesied during the Babylonian captivity, which is the link between Jerusalem and Babylon. Remember what happens when the AC establishes his kingdom in Jerusalem, because this is an important detail. Revelation 11: 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. Jerusalem is taken over by the gentiles and the AC, the remnant will flee as instructed when they see the AoD, but the Jews who remain in the city will be captive again, whether they realize it or not is debatable. One other important piece that I had not touched on yet, is also said of Jerusalem and mystery Babylon. Ezekiel 16:44 “Behold, everyone who uses proverbs will use this proverb about you: ‘Like mother, like daughter.’ Revelation 17: 5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.” The proverb from Ezekiel is about Jerusalem being the mother of all harlots/prostitutes, and the entire chapter speaks of her unique harlotry and how her abominations are greater than all of the other nations mentioned, including Sodom. You can go one by one and find reasons to dismiss these symbolic references, like Jerusalem being a cup of staggering, but when you look at the massive amounts of things you must dismiss all linking this one city, it is an overwhelming amount of evidence. Coincidence? I don't think so, none of these things are said of, or can be true of any other city, it really is that simple. God bless

God also told you this. Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.

Yes, that is what I was alluding to, via the mark of the beast, all commerce and wealth/riches will be gained only by control of the enemy. I don't see it as having to pass hands through Jerusalem, but through the ruling power there. I don't doubt that the AC will be a notable figure prior to all of this, but I see no certainty in this timing as stated. To me it appears the deadly head wound is more likely a result of the AoD, perhaps even a response to it from a zealous Jew. Much of the timing will not be clear until events unfold. The earth, and everything in it will be burned up, this includes Jerusalem. God established a covenant with the people, not a man made city that will melt away with everything else. The Lord addresses the future of Jerusalem, and it does not resemble the city that exists now. (Isaiah 54) I'm not following your logic here, as that is precisely what it means. The reason you need a New Jerusalem is because the old one no longer exists, never to be seen again. God bless

I wouldn't say that. It may have occurred prior to the new covenant being enacted, but most of Jesus' ministry on earth was instruction and examples for us to follow under the new covenant. I would think of it more as a time of transition from what was, to what would be.

I think where we differ is that you are looking at things as they are, not as they will be. When the AC rises to power and claims his seat from the city of Jerusalem and the very temple, a one world government will be established. A government that will revolve around a one world religion, and one world currency, all centered on the beast. We are talking about direct worship of evil, all happening right out of Jerusalem. All money, all worship, all leadership for the entire world will flow from this place. You say it won't happen in a million years, and on that we definitely disagree. That though is the answer to your question, how would Jerusalem make all the kings and merchants rich, is because Jerusalem will be the center of power for the all controlling end times government. So what is now, has no bearing on what will be once the end begins to fall into place. Some of the other points I was going to make, Heleadethme has put forth in the previous post, regarding the double portion and priestly garments. I would also add, that in Ezekiel 16 Jerusalem is not just referred to as a harlot, but a unique harlot, unlike any other. There are other things as well which I could continue pointing out, but we will leave it as is. God bless

The cup. Revelation 18:6 Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed. Zechariah 12:2 “Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah. I have to head to work now, will continue later, Lord willing. God bless

Understanding the distinguishing line is something that comes from spiritual discernment, recognizing the difference between the spiritual and physical. There really isn't anything more I can say on the matter, understanding will have to come from the Lord. God bless

The most important piece is this one. Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.” Matthew 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous,30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. He is addressing the religious leaders of Israel, and goes on to say.... Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! Jesus is God, He doesn't speak out of turn, or make false predictions. This is what He said, so you can rest assured this is the case. There is more of course, but for now, this will do. God bless

It's not my interpretation, it is what Jesus said specifically regarding His kingdom. Luke 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

You're applying "this generation" to this part of scripture, which does not say anything about "this generation" He says, some who are standing there (His disciples) will not taste death before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This is not at all related to His physical coming with His angels.

The coming in His kingdom has already began, it began at Pentecost, and others have already posted the scripture that clearly says this. The disciples were the first to experience it, so they certainly did see it. You are still mixing the two answers together, it will remain confusing as long as you do so.

The generation that is alive when the signs of His coming begin to happen. It is also worth noting, that not all agree on the translation to generation as being proper, race is one possibility, as well as others. What I think is clear, or should be, is that not all of these things have happened yet. So any error is in the understanding, not the answer itself, which to me is clearly still future.

Jesus said all these things would happen in regards to His coming, the second question. As you just correctly stated, first He said what would happen at the temple destruction, first question. Two answers to two different questions.

Well, all I can say is this. Jesus specifically places the blood of the prophets and saints on Jerusalem, this cannot be undone or altered. Ezekiel 16 says what it says as well, so personally, I would go with scripture on the matter.

That is the reason it doesn't make sense to you. You see one answer to 2 questions, whereas the rest of us see two answers to two different questions, so it makes perfect sense to us. Jesus wasn't mistaken, so which do you think is more plausible?