wingnut-

Ummmm, that is not what Paul says at all. II Corinthians 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. Paul says we, meaning he groans in this tent as well, longing to put on our (again, including himself) heavenly dwelling. Paul again says we (including himself) would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. Pay close attention to verse 5, we are already prepared because He has given (past tense) the Spirit as our guarantee, which relates to your misunderstanding in regards to Ezekiel 36. God bless

Did you miss who Ezekiel 36 is for? Ezekiel 36:19 I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them. 20 But when they came to the nations, wherever they came, they profaned my holy name, in that people said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they had to go out of his land.’ 21 But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came. I Will Put My Spirit Within You 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. The church did not possess the land, and have not been dispersed from it. Ezekiel 36 is about the nation of Israel, as displayed from the passage above, which I extended from what I previously posted to include the verse you just referenced. Please note the bolded and underlined section and explain how this relates to the church in any way, shape, or form. Specifically, I would love to hear your explanation in regards to verse 26, because based on this, and your misunderstanding of John 17, you don't seem to think the Holy Spirit has come yet? God bless

It contradicts scripture, so no, I would not recommend it. Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Galatians 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. I am eagerly awaiting His return, so I am certainly not going to ask Him to stay away, more like come now! And while the middle parts may seem right, the entire focus is on the things of this world, which you supposedly have given up thinking about in your new nature, what gives? It is more like trying to pull on people's heart strings to make your message more meaningful. What your message is sorely lacking, is scripture. What little scripture you have brought up, is out of context. Here is an example of what I mean. Ezekiel 36:19 I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them. 20 But when they came to the nations, wherever they came, they profaned my holy name, in that people said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they had to go out of his land.’ 21 But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came. I Will Put My Spirit Within You 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. This is directed to the nation of Israel, as you can clearly see. Christians did not possess His land and have to go out of it, the dispersion of the Jews following their exile is the topic at hand, this has nothing to do with the church. Leading into verse 22, this ties in with Joel 2 and what is prophesied there. Again, nothing to do with the church, it is in regards to the nation of Israel. On the previous page, you posed this question. Was God lying when He said He would actually cause us to obey? Where is this found in scripture please? What passage has God saying He will cause us to obey? What I am seeing so far is a confusion between what is in Israel's future, and what is in the churches future. Frienduff was right on the money when he pointed out there is no enlightenment spoken of in scripture in regards to the church, but a falling away or departing from the faith. So far the only passages you have mentioned have nothing to do with the church. Here are some scriptures about what is going on with the church in the latter days. I Timothy 4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. You see there, not departing from the faith because others have become enlightened as you claim, but because they devote themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons. II Timothy 3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men. Look familiar? This is the light you are attempting to cast believers in, but that isn't who Paul is talking about here is it? And what about verse 5, those having the appearance of Godliness, but denying its power? Hebrews 13:9 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them. God bless

It is found throughout the OT prophets, and their expectations of the messiah coming as a conqueror. The Jewish people expected this to happen when He first appeared, not understanding that sin could not be paid for by the blood of animals, but only by Him. Ezekiel 37:24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore.27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” They will mistake the anti-christ for their messiah, because he is going to deliver them peace as it appears to them, although we know it is a false peace, they do not yet understand the prophecy. It is the anti-christ who through the false peace will rebuild the temple, and to further display why he must be a Jew, follow along to the instructions given in regards to the temple. Ezekiel 44 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east. And it was shut. 2 And the Lord said to me, “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it. Therefore it shall remain shut.3 Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the Lord. He shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way.” And to make it clear that access to the temple is restricted from all non-Jews or anyone who does not practice Judaism, there is this. Ezekiel 44:6 And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations, 7 in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations. 8 And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary. 9 “Thus says the Lord God: No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the people of Israel, shall enter my sanctuary. Only those who fit this requirement are allowed inside the sanctuary. Ezekiel 44:15 “But the Levitical priests, the sons of Zadok, who kept the charge of my sanctuary when the people of Israel went astray from me, shall come near to me to minister to me. And they shall stand before me to offer me the fat and the blood, declares the Lord God. 16 They shall enter my sanctuary, and they shall approach my table, to minister to me, and they shall keep my charge. God bless

I think what Yowm is getting at, is that the Jews have to believe he is the messiah, which means he has to be a Jew. This would also be necessary for him to gain access to the temple in order to desecrate it.

11 The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd.

9 Besides being wise, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs with great care.

John 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me." Praise God!

7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

5 they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets

3 in the day when the keepers of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those who look through the windows are dimmed,

10 Remove vexation from your heart, and put away pain from your body, for youth and the dawn of life are vanity.

I can't answer why they would do that. All I can say is, that is completely out of context.

9 Rejoice, O young man, in your youth, and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Walk in the ways of your heart and the sight of your eyes. But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment.

7 Light is sweet, and it is pleasant for the eyes to see the sun.

I will give to the Lord the thanks due to his righteousness, and I will sing praise to the name of the Lord, the Most High. (Psalm 7:17)

You can highlight something specific with your cursor, and a little pop up will appear that says "quote this" in the vicinity of your cursor. That is how I do it to avoid having to edit things out. God bless

5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

Awww brother, I was not accusing you, I was just pointing out that this is precisely the position the preterists point to, that these things were fulfilled in 70ad. Don't feel bad, it was not meant that way. Oddly enough, you are the first person I can recall thinking that I was a preterist lol. Agreed, this is not the right thread to hash everything out in regards to overall views. My response is to the OP, she will get plenty of responses about the other positions, I am not interested in a debate on the matter. Perhaps in the future we will learn more about what the other believes. God bless

Yes, they are with them, this is told to us in Revelation 17. Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” This is referencing what you see in chapter 19, the rider on the white horse. No, it's not figurative or temporary, Jerusalem as it is known will be no more as seen by the results of the judgments. Revelation 16: 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. No city on the planet is going to remain, nothing about the earth will be as we know it, the above is from the 7th bowl. Remember, the second and third woe come right on top of each other, the end comes quickly as foretold by the prophets. I'm as far from a preterist as is possible. The odd thing about this statement is, you're actually supporting a preterist view by stating they have been held accountable. The Lord does not repay until He returns, not before. Deuteronomy 32:35 Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.’ Romans 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Hebrews 10:30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. God bless

I will lay out for you what scripture says in regards to this, and you will probably only get one other theory, possibly two to consider. The main argument you will hear is that this is the RCC, so let's just examine what we know about mystery Babylon from scripture. Read Exodus 28 tigger, in regards to the priestly garments God called the Jews to make. You will note the colors, the jewels and even the gold plate that Aaron was instructed to wear, they all align with the descriptions in Revelation 17 regarding the harlot. The RCC designed their garments in an effort to duplicate what God designed for Israel. Since the Jews have not had levitical priests for several thousand years now does not diminish the fact that they will, once the temple is rebuilt and they reinstate practicing their beliefs. It isn't about what we have seen, it is about what we will see at that time. You also need to read Ezekiel 16, the entire chapter, in which you will find a scathing description of the great harlot, Jerusalem. Also, check out Hosea, the prophet whose life was patterned after God's relationship with Israel. Hosea was instructed by God to marry, you guessed it, a harlot. I am just going to point you to a couple of key pieces of information to prove my point. This scripture cannot be refuted, nor can this be said of any other place on earth, it is unique by its very definition. This is the very last verse of Revelation 18, and is said directly of Babylon the great. Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.” Now, what city can make such a claim? Let's start first with something Jesus said. Matthew 23:34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Now this confirms that Jerusalem is Babylon, it is the only city in all of scripture that this is said of, and it can only apply to one city on earth. The last verse in that passage, will confirm what is said in Ezekiel 16, Israel's condition as the mother of harlots has been in effect from the time of Ezekiel's prophecy until His return. No one else fits the role given of the greatest harlot, even worse than Sodom. To further expand on what is meant by the blood of all the prophets, saints, and all who have been slain on the earth being Jerusalem, look no further than what was accomplished at the cross. What did Jesus do? He defeated death and sin. His blood atoned for all sin, and claimed victory over all death, and this event took place in Jerusalem! One other fact that needs to be addressed is this. Babylon cannot represent a religious belief, it is impossible! Why? Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; Satan is setting up a religion for himself to be worshiped, one of the key components of this is accepting the mark of the beast. If anyone takes the mark of the beast, they cannot be called out of that religion, they are dead, finished, done. There is no coming back from it. This is what Satan has been after from the moment he first rebelled against God, and he even tried to tempt Jesus into this. Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’” 11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him. The RCC may be many things, but they don't worship Satan, that would be Alister Crowley's group. But the point is, that it is not referring to a religious system anyway, or the call for His people to come out of her would make no sense at all. It is Jerusalem, and that is what Christians should be watching for. If you want to ask me anything else about it tigger, or want some more specifics I will be happy to respond, but other than that I will exit stage right. God bless

That's not exactly what it says in Revelation 18, take a closer look at some excerpts, because I think this idea is based on inference than fact. Revelation 18:8 For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her.” 9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning. 10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, “Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come.” First thing is, her plagues come in a single day, and while she is burned up with fire, it is the Lord God judging her, not the ten kings. In verse 9 you will notice the kings are sad about this, and in verse 10 they are standing far off from her. Also, note that fire is not the only thing involved as we look further. Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more; When God judges her, is the second woe, and the third woe comes quickly. This is all the end game, the ten kings only have authority for one hour, the same amount of time it takes for the city to be destroyed. The place they are standing is where they have been gathered to fight Jesus, which is why they are outside the city and can see it burning from far off. When the angel throws that great millstone into the sea, you get the great earthquake. I didn't mean to imply that you personally did, what I was referring to is the entire theory is based on emotion. It was born from the Reformation and delivered by Martin Luther who was at war with the RCC, and heavily persecuted by them. Prior to that, there is no history of this theory existing, it is a modern theory in the grand scheme of things. I understand, I completely disagree however, as there is no scripture to support it. There are inferences and conclusions drawn from scripture, but no scripture that states or names Rome explicitly or symbolically at all. I know the response will be that the early church couldn't name Rome because of the situation, but it didn't have to, John used symbolism in Revelation, and none of that is tied to Rome. It directly points to Jerusalem in every instance, which I am going to show in a more detailed response to tigger. God bless

If you make a few more posts, perhaps a hello thread in the welcome forum, more of the forum opens up to you as well as the chat room. If you had anything specific you wanted to ask, feel free to do so. God bless

Welcome to worthy Psalm 23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. 2 He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. 3 He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. 5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Ecclesiastes 11:1 Cast your bread upon the waters, for you will find it after many days.