wingnut-

I am curious, how many times in scripture is the color "white" associated with evil? At what point does the Lord cease being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent? Could it be, is it possible, that His first advent is precisely what is transpiring with that first seal? Have you ever asked yourself, who is giving this rider a crown to begin with? Is there anywhere in scripture that God gives a crown to an enemy of His? Another thought to consider here, how often does a symbol change in scripture? Since Jesus is identified as the rider on the white horse later, wouldn't that be a little more consistent? I don't imagine you read the Lamb of God and decide it suddenly represents someone other than Jesus, so I can't imagine why this symbol should be regarded any differently.

I'm not sure if that is good or bad, it doesn't sound like a positive, but I know when I've challenged my own thoughts in the past it made me cringe a bit too at times. If it's bad, I apologize for that, I know I am blunt or direct so it does come off to some as aggressive. I guess I just prefer to get to the point is all. As far as the closed minded, that isn't the case, the problem to this point is you are not giving me any evidence that supports your claims in scripture. I have considered some of the possibilities in the past, in regards to these things being the result of natural phenomenon. The problem that you eventually run into is, when you consider a solar eclipse or a lunar eclipse, in both instances they require the participation of the other object in question. In the scenario presented at the 6th seal both celestial objects are affected at the same time, that has never occurred before. In light of that I have concluded this can only be accomplished by a divine act, and as a result to me the same will apply to the stars. The issue with stars is even broader, because we have no idea what actual distance they are from us, so if you consider most of them are considered to be such a great distance, where are they falling to? Certainly not to earth. I envision something along the lines of what some of the OT prophecies speak to, God will just move His hand and "wipe" them away. I didn't imagine you did, which was why I asked the question. But, I still think that presents problems that you have to account for. Keep in mind what we do know, the issue of total darkness and this requirement for the sign of His coming. Also, consider what I said above, these celestial conditions are unique, and consider all of that in light of Zechariah's prophecy that I touched on in a previous post. Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light. I'm sure you agree with me that Zechariah is speaking about the day of the Lord, in which He has come. Then, you have to ask yourself, can a day of darkness be unique if the same conditions occurred seven years prior? Neither day or night, no sun or moon to make it either, and then see if what occurs at the 6th seal can be accounted for in any other event that follows.

I am not sure there is scripture to say definitively that they sang in church, but considering the early church was mostly made up of Messianic Jews, and that the Israelites had been singing songs of worship to God going all the way back to the OT days I believe that they did. The book of Psalms, those are all songs, sung to the Lord.

In regards to the concept of work and how it is a means to avoiding temptation, I wanted to share a few things that I have observed or experienced in this manner. It may or may not address what Abrielle had in mind, so I hope I'm not stealing his thunder. II Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. When a person is idle, it becomes a breeding ground for doing non-constructive things, which Paul touches on when he speaks of busybodies. This is often coupled in scripture with gossips and slanderers, people who are busy doing things they ought not to be doing. When we keep ourselves busy in a constructive way, such as work, or providing for our families as we should, then we are not causing issues.

The falling away was a 1st century event, per the gospel accounts of the Olivet discourse. Notice, how according to Luke's account, the Lord specifically tells the disciples they will personally experience this. Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. Notice how Luke opens, and notice the last sentence, because the terrors and signs from heaven are related to the events of Revelation. Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives. Now if you prefer reading Matthew's account of the Olivet discourse, you still must apply the truth known from Luke's account and apply it appropriately. So this is how it should be viewed properly. Matthew 24: 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. BUT BEFORE ALL THIS Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

I'm glad you are taking time to consider it, because at the end of the day, to understand what is to take place it is imperative that our timeline is established by known events that we can positively identify within scripture. The three woes are some of these examples, tied to known events, and also identified apart from those events specifically so we can establish a sequence within the Revelation. The things described following the 7th trumpet are also known events that serve in the same manner, which is why these two areas are so important. The resurrection, which is the equivalent of the gathering is another example. I suspect that may be the case, based on the timing of events, but I am not dogmatic about it because no one can say definitively either way since it is not said or directly linked to any of the statements made at the 7th trumpet. One of the issues regarding the timing of the gathering is that from the information in Revelation, we can conclude based on all of scripture that the first resurrection relates to it, and also one other area that include statements that point to it as well. The example I have in mind would be linked to the events resulting from the second woe, 6th trumpet. Revelation 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. This one, involving the two witnesses, goes hand in hand with everything we know about the gathering. They are called up to heaven by a heavenly voice, in a cloud. Since John only points to one such resurrection, the logical deduction is that these two witnesses are part of that same resurrection, and why wouldn't two very important servants of God be called blessed and holy as those in the first resurrection are called. Now what immediately follows the above verse is that in the same hour there is a massive earthquake, and then it tells us the second woe is done and the third comes quickly. The third being the 7th trumpet. Since the second woe is concluding, it is safe to say that it is not the 6th trumpet call that is the gathering because that happens prior to this and these events are a result of it. But since it says the third woe comes quickly, that would seem to indicate the 7th trumpet still hasn't sounded. It could be that the 7th trumpet does sound, and that statement is just associating the closeness of the two trumpets, or it could be that the trump of God is distinct and separate from these trumpets and just happens to occur around the same time frame with no specific mention in Revelation. As I've stated before the final events I see happening in rapid succession, right on top of each other, and I have also made reference to the 6's and 7's. By that I mean the seal, trumpet, and bowl of each of those numbers, and I also believe they come in that order, seal first, trumpet second, bowl third. But I also see these overlapping each other in many instances, so for example the 6th bowl events can be going on at the time the 7th seal or anything following it are beginning. Sudden destruction, wrath kindled quickly. If you look closely at these 6 events, you will see a correlation between the exact same things or results of those things happening within them. Another way to say it is this, once the 6th seal is open, the 7th seal can be opened, the 6th trumpet or 6th bowl events do not have to be over, they can still be in progress. The same is true of the trumpets and bowls, they must progress in numerical order, but once the 6th has been initiated, the 7th can follow at any time. I hope that makes sense to you in regards to what I mean by overlapping.

I just want to say for the record, I absolutely have no doubts about your sincerity or to whom your loyalty belongs. You are a brother in Christ, I have no doubts about that, so I hope you understand my responses are not meant as accusatory, or that I am assigning any malice to your intentions. I have no doubt you fully believe what you are presenting is true or you wouldn't present it. What I am trying to point out, is that we are given specific instructions regarding how to verify the truth of a matter, and the instructions are to test everything against scripture, like the Bereans did. If something cannot be found in scripture, it simply isn't true, and everything requires two or more witnesses to establish credibility. II Thessalonians 2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, The second Coming is its own event, considering you see them as two separate events, why would you try to change this into your alternate event when it is already identified? If it were your alternate event, wouldn't Paul have wrote, Now concerning the Sign Return of our Lord Jesus Christ? I had said at the beginning of the discussion I wasn't going to engage in any debate regarding the reliability of scripture in regards to translations, but in this instance I am willing to make an exception because this is a valid question with honorable motives. The first thing we have to ask ourselves is, did the translators have deception on their mind when this slight alteration was made, and does it have any significance as far as impact on the message? The first thing that would be required is a second witness. Is there another example in scripture, where a different writer makes a distinction to set apart a specific "Day of Christ"? There are none to speak of, so in absence of a second witness, the idea of a distinction doesn't ring true. So what purpose would the translators have for making the alteration, since changing it doesn't seem to have any necessity? What they changed it to reveals the answer. If we go back to the very start of His first advent and examine the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah, what we find is that the prophets used the terminology Day of the Lord in conjunction with what we know as the Second Coming. Of course there are also prophecies regarding His first advent, where the Messiah is spoken of as the suffering servant which depict His death and resurrection as being necessary, and also reveal that the Israelites would reject Him. The reason they rejected Him is because they failed to understand or connect the suffering servant to the Messiah, their expectations for the Messiah were based on all the prophecies regarding the Day of the Lord. When Jesus came, they expected Him to wipe out the Romans and restore Israel's sovereign status under His rulership. Christ, or Christos in the Greek, means Messiah. So the day of Christ = day of the Messiah, which is the equivalent of all the Messianic prophecies referring to the Day of the Lord. Like for example, this one. Zechariah 14 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light. 8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter. 9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one. This of course but one example, I could post so many more but don't find it necessary. It should be fairly clear there is no great conspiracy about a single change in translations that does not alter the meaning or point us to anything other than the same exact day, a unique day, which was known as the Day of the Lord from long before Christ walked the earth. No matter what name it is called by, every single instance points to the only one who is Coming, Christ. You're trying to make a conspiracy about an alteration that was done for clarity, and that ultimately is leading you to all the wrong conclusions. First, start with the fact the falling away occurred in the 1st century, per Luke, which you still have not reconciled to your timeline. Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. Luke opens with this information, pay particular attention to the last sentence please, terrors and great signs from heaven. Where would you say that falls on the timeline? Does it sound anything like what takes place in Revelation that we have been discussing? Watch what immediately follows, and please apply the verbal cues to timing of events. Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives. These things happened to His disciples, the very men He was speaking to, and according to His timeline it occurred prior to even the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. There is no getting around this fact, it is not even disputable, so it is time to adjust your chronology of the accounts in Matthew and Mark in accordance with the facts established from Luke. The events in verses 12-19 come before those in verses 10 and 11. Issue number two, Paul already tells us why, and you are attempting to give us a completely different reason than Paul actually says. I Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. The question you should be asking yourself is, why in verse 4 does Paul say to "The Church", the day of the Lord won't come like a thief because you are not in darkness? If there was even a shred of validity to the pre-trib theory, what Paul would have said "But you won't be here, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief." Can you explain why Paul didn't?

What we have is a picture being painted, you have to envision what is being said and paint a mental picture. This is what I see. Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. At this point, what you should be envisioning is total darkness. This event sets the stage for what is to follow, because in order for the next phase to have the desired effect, total darkness is required. I believe there will be a half hour time period from when this occurs, to what follows. Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. From a state of total darkness comes this next sign, and it was previously disclosed to you as to how it will occur. Matthew 24: 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Have you ever been in a nasty storm, where it is really dark, and then lightning flashes in the sky? You don't even have to be looking, you could be standing in your house staring at a wall, but when that lightning flashes you see this sudden light, and you know it was lightning. The difference in this instance, the light will not just flash and go away like actual lightning does, this is just a metaphorical use of lightning so that you as the reader can get a mental picture. The expression about it comes from the east as far as the west is a phrase that is used multiple times in scripture to relate to us that this is an all encompassing effect. The same terminology is used to express the removal of our sins, as far as the east is to the west they are removed. EVERYONE on earth will see Him coming because out of the darkness comes this brilliant light, and it is drawing closer. Here is what you have to understand, these events that create total darkness are necessary to set the scene for His coming. They do not reoccur later in scripture, this is a one time thing that takes place at the 6th seal, there is nothing that takes place at what you consider the end to duplicate this scenario. So either you have 7 years of total darkness, which later trumpet and bowl judgements make impossible, or this event occurs at the end of the tribulation as Jesus said it does.

The celestial events, you mean the sun going dark, the moon going dark, and the stars falling from the sky? You're saying it isn't hard to envision these things lingering, so I have to ask this, exactly how would a star that falls out of the sky put itself back? These events are a particular problem for you, because the conditions that result from such a thing is called, total darkness. 7 years of total darkness, is this what you envision? If so, explain this. Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11 and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds. And of course you have other issues, relating to events that would follow this by your chronology relating to the sun specifically. Revelation 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory. Revelation 8:10 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter. 12 The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night. There are a few examples that you have to contend with, and while you can certainly make an argument that the condition of the sun and moon can be restored, there is no explanation as to how the stars would return to the sky. Well the interesting thing here, is the very chapter you have pointed to. What is the context of I Corinthians 15 about? The entire body of the chapter is in regards to what topic? Resurrection. The very passage you point to, what does it speak of? I Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. Where in Revelation does John tell us this takes place? Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. Now, hopefully your response won't go the route so many seem to take now out of desperation and attempt to argue that first doesn't actually mean first, because the argument is so ridiculous I won't even entertain it. Instead, I hope you and anyone else reading will consider the last part that I highlighted. Why does the second death have no power over those who are part of the first resurrection? Deductive reasoning should lead one to understand, that once a person has been translated from the perishable into the imperishable, they cannot be extinguished. Imperishable by its very definition correlates to everlasting. This is precisely what occurs as we are gathered, in the twinkling of an eye, we are raised imperishable. Another part of this passage related to timing that absolutely does not align with your theory, is verse 4. How can those who were beheaded for Jesus's testimony, and not worshiped the beast or taken his mark be included in the first resurrection when according to you none of this has taken place? This is what I want you to consider I am referencing when I have pointed out that what dispensationalism has done, is exclude the natural branches, being the Israelites, from being called "Blessed and Holy". Anyone you leave out of the first resurrection, you are removing from the body, as well as the very promises that were specifically made to the Jewish people in regards to their inheritance, which is the same as ours. You have to account for I Corinthians 15:50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and ask yourself if it seems right that the Jewish people cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

My friend, I really hope you don't take this other than as intended, but it needs to be said. The three gospel accounts, I know them all by heart and exactly what they say, and not one of them gives any indication of a separate event, all three reference His coming. The same is true of all scriptural accounts, the term His coming is used over and over again, and in each instance it is speaking to the same thing. What you are doing here, is creating an event that is not scriptural, and you have even assigned it a title, His Sign Return. The test of scripture in regards to the validity of this is simple, show me the scripture that uses that term, His Sign Return, or Sign Return, even a Sign Return I would accept. Minus any evidence or appearance of this found in scripture, it is not scriptural, it is something you are attempting to force into scripture. Now here is the thing, according to you, this Sign Return is for the Israelites, so producing scripture to support such an event should be extremely easy to do considering the massive amounts of Old Testament prophecies that discuss the Israelites and what is going on with them at this time. So, show me the scripture where Jesus appears and the Israelites see Him, and then He gathers up the church and leaves them standing there with no acknowledgement at all. Unless you can produce scripture that refers to this Sign Return, or scripture that speaks to the event of this and what you are assigning to it, then it continues to lack credibility. The phrase certainly does not appear in any of the scripture mentioned above, nor does any of that scripture address the Israelites being left in the lurch as you have described. When you say Joel's prophecy that is quite a bit of material, much of which has nothing to do with these things. Do you mean in chapter 2 where Joel talks about the locust army? That event is historical, and was fulfilled when a literal army of locusts descended on Israel. You mention Pentecost, so are you referring to what Peter said was fulfilled there? Obviously if it was fulfilled at that time, it is also historical. Or are you questioning what was fulfilled according to Peter? Are you speaking to Joel's prophecy regarding the former rain and the latter rain?

You are correct, I am referring to His coming, and the sudden destruction that occurs as a result.

No, it is marking the event, which is His coming. In the reaction quoted from the sixth seal, is anyone quoted as reacting to the sign, or are they saying things like, "Hide us from His face and wrath?" His face is something specific, and to see someone's face, doesn't it require a certain proximity? His wrath occurs upon His arrival, everything surrounding this event is in response to His coming. Only when the term sudden destruction is applied to the scenario, again this negates a 7 year period of time that follows. 7 years is not sudden. The phrase sudden destruction appears in verse 3, and your scenario does not meet the requirements of sudden destruction. What it appears is happening based on your reference to how the gathering occurs quickly, is that you are applying sudden destruction to sudden escape.

While I agree the two olive branches symbolize the two groups, Jews and Gentile, it is a reference to two individuals, Enoch (Gentile), Elijah (Jew), the only two men in scripture that did not die a physical death. The problem with trying to view the two witnesses are two large groups is problematic, just consider this passage from chapter 11. Revelation 11: 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, How large are these groups? How many bodies does that leave in the streets? And who would be standing around such a scene, can you imagine the smell of that many decaying bodies?

That is not what is stated at all, you are taking the phrase "all these things" and attempting to reduce it to one thing. He is clearly addressing all the tribulation that He has spoken to them. Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” It's a very odd position to take, in saying that Jesus would speak these things to a specific group of people, and then try to remove from "all these things" the very specific details of tribulation that they are told they WILL experience personally. Then you take something that based on your theory, won't occur for several millennia down the road, and try to narrow it down to just that one thing which then completely removes any relevance regarding the specific audience that asked Him the questions in the first place. You're still not addressing the contradiction regarding the 144,000. We see them being sealed in chapter 7, so they are not harmed by the coming judgements, which means they will be here on earth. The second time we see them in chapter 14, we are told they specifically follow the Lamb wherever He goes following their redemption. In order for that to be true, they MUST be in the same place Jesus is. This does not align with your chronology. The prophecies of Hosea and Isaiah are also in conflict with your theory, in that we are told the Lord takes them aside and tenderly speaks to them privately. There is no scripture to support your theory that their conversion is regarding their seeing Him come to rapture the church, whilst leaving them behind to suffer.

Ok, so having familiarized myself with your timeline via the links you shared, let's just approach this from the beginning of the seventh trumpet and deal with things one item at a time. Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” So what we see in this opening declaration, is that the kingdom of the world, meaning earth, is now His. And He will reign forever, beginning from the moment that trumpet sounds. If we examine what that means, based on scripture itself, it is very revealing. One of the best illustrations we have comes from a Psalm appropriately titled "The Reign of the Lord's Anointed", so let's just walk through it. Psalms 2 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying, 3 “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” Now where in Revelation do we see this activity occurring, where the kings of the earth and the rulers (meaning the dragon, beast, and false prophet) conspire to defeat God the Father and Jesus? Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Pretty straightforward so far, in regards to timing and consistent with the second woe, which as a reminder, is specifically stated just prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet in chapter 11. Continuing on with the Psalm. Psalms 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, 6 “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.” God is laughing at them, literally. Now Zion, is and has always been a reference to New Jerusalem, even though many continue to confuse it with earthly Jerusalem. In Hebrews however it is made perfectly clear to us. When Jesus sets down on earth, it will be on the Mt. of Olives, and His first order of business is to proceed to this battle at Armageddon. Psalm 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.” This section reminds us of the manner in which He reigns, not gentle, but with righteous indignation. We see this scenario played out in chapter 19 of Revelation. Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. Psalms 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. The Psalm concludes by pointing out the exact thing Paul tells us, sudden destruction. His wrath is quickly kindled, and once it is He comes with a firm hand, a rod of iron. This is His reign from beginning to end. It does not allow for some extended period of time, and it does not allow for your chronology. I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on this, having already covered the opening declaration let's just review the other specifics mentioned as a result of the 7th trumpet and then compare which chapters actually deal with the material. Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying, “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. 18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” Verse 17 deals with the information from the opening declaration we already covered, but just a quick reminder of how this goes down, the beginning of His reign, here is what chapter 19 states. Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. This points out to us, that He leaves heaven, with the armies of heaven following Him out a few verses later, and immediately proceeds to battle once He arrives on earth. This is in direct opposition to any notion there is some sort of delay, especially years. In verse 18 we see a phrase that should be freshly familiar from Psalm 2, the nations raged, which was how the Psalm opened, but His wrath came, as in past tense. The time for the dead to be judged is next, we find that in chapter 20, rewards for the prophets and saints chapter 21. So what we actually see here, is that this passage from the seventh trumpet speaks specifically to events in chapters 19, 20, and 21. How you get chapter 12-20 I have no idea, because it simply doesn't address any of those in that material. Chapter 12 gives us a brief history of past events to identify the symbolic characters of the chapter, but the contents of the chapter by and large specifically address the first woe, 5th trumpet, from chapter 9. It also addresses the 3 1/2 year period which is discussed also in chapters 11, and 13. Chapter 13 addresses the two beasts, and the 3 1/2 year period known as the great tribulation in its entirety. Chapter 14 covers first the faithful remnant of Israel, symbolized by the 144,000 redeemed from the earth, and who from the moment they are redeemed are said to follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Then you get the messages from the three angels, first that the hour of His judgement has come, and second that Babylon has fallen. So what ties all of this together, where do we see this information? Babylon falls in a single hour, a fact that is repeated within chapter 18 numerous times, so naturally, what would immediately follow is the detail that it has indeed fallen. And where do we find this within the specific judgements mentioned in Revelation? Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. So if Babylon is fallen in chapter 14, per the second angels message, how can she be draining the cup in chapter 16 at the very last bowl? If Babylon has fallen in chapter 14, how can we then be introduced to clues regarding who she is in chapter 17, and a play by play of her destruction in chapter 18 when she fell in chapter 14 and again comes up in chapter 16 as still drinking from the cup of wrath? How can one argue chronology in the face of such clear evidence to the contrary? Then there is how the seventh trumpet event wraps up, watch closely what is occurring here. Revelation 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Now refer back up to the previous portion from chapter 16, the seventh bowl, verse 18. Word for word, flashes of lightning, rumbling, peals of thunder, and earthquake, and heavy hail, oh yes, the end of the seventh bowl. Revelation 16:21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe. As I stated previously, these final events, starting with the set of 6 and 7's happen very quickly and overlapping each other, sudden destruction, as prophesied.

Basically yes. The difference between a prophet today and one from the past is that God's word is complete, so there is nothing more to add in the way of future prophecies. Every single prognosticator that I have ever seen has eventually been proven false. The role of a modern day prophet would be more along the lines of one who understands prophecy, not one who gives it. As far as those who come claiming to have private revelations from God, it's a recipe for disaster. If you examine every cult or cult leader that has come along in the last 30 years or so alone, you will see this is the formula each one used to start their group.

According to scripture, yes. Ezekiel and Hosea both were prophets. All the other mentions in scripture regarding watchman would be in reference to what we today would refer to as sentries, or guards, serving in a military fashion. While their duties are similar in that a sentry reports or warns of danger, so the same is true of the prophet's role in that they specifically speak for God, and are chosen by God to deliver warnings to His people. The measure of a prophet is also given in scripture in determining whether or not they actually speak for God. One thing you should note concerning all the prophets of the past, they were not vague in their messages. They warned about very specific dangers and what the consequences would be if it continued. One other thing they never did, was to promote themselves as above the people to which they spoke, they were humble, and their grumbling was kept between them and God.

Test everything against scripture, there is no single thing we are warned more about in the last days than those who claim to be prophets and are not.

Ezekiel 3:16 And at the end of seven days, the word of the Lord came to me: 17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. Hosea 9:8 The prophet is the watchman of Ephraim with my God; yet a fowler's snare is on all his ways, and hatred in the house of his God.

Revelation 10: 7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. So despite being told there is no more delay and prophecy will be fulfilled your theory says no, there is still a delay? Despite being told He is now reigning your theory says no, not yet? Time for judging the dead is now, but your theory says no, not yet? This fails the test of scripture in every regard as it is in direct opposition to what we are told.

Yes, that was exactly my point. There is nothing in the section you have labeled as when the rapture occurs about any rapture or gathering. Where you find it in your third section is where it belongs, where Jesus placed it, after the tribulation. Your theory requires moving it without any scriptural support for doing so, which is why it should be rejected. I think it is a mistake to build your theory around Revelation being chronological, and I am still waiting for you to address what results from the 7th trumpet. We know this? Based on what exactly? It actually doesn't have solid merit, and until you address the known events and the timing of those in scripture, such as the three woes, then you still have not shown it. Well, again here we disagree, because clearly to me based on scripture and history, the 70th week (for certain the first half of the week) has already occurred. If you would be so kind, please explain the passage below and specifically, why the desolation is not spoken in future tense. Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Maybe what is being overlooked by people is rather obvious, and would explain quite a bit if it were ackowledged. Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. One thing the reader should understand is that desolations is plural, not singular. I couldn't disagree with this speculation more. For one, Daniel is not a little book, and for two, Revelation 10 speaks of a little scroll, not a book. This entire premise is not based on scripture at all, therefore it fails the "test" of scripture. I disagree, all of the 3 1/2 year periods specified in Revelation are the same 3 1/2 year period of time. The two witnesses will be present in conjunction with the reign of the beast and will in fact be to offset him. This is why it is specified that no one can harm these two witnesses, including the beast, until their time ends, just 3.5 days before his own time expires. This chapter is also linked directly to the 6th trumpet, 2nd woe, and all three woes occur within the last 3 1/2 years. The three woes, by definition, are the very heart of what makes this the great tribulation. Also, as I pointed out previously, your timing on this does not agree with the three gospel accounts, particularly it directly clashes with Luke's account per the timing. You section off these three accounts in segments, so compare them all side by side and explain how these exact things occur at different times. Not to mention the last verse of Luke's segment matches exactly with Revelation 11. Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. Mark 13:14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” In both Matthew and Mark's accounts, they specify that this time period was defined as the "great tribulation" per Jesus. I think that adequately dispels your assertion that this time period is not the same 3.5 year period as the others mentioned in Revelation. Indeed, but you haven't explained how you come to the conclusion it is referring to a building! Considering we know based on scripture, from our New Testament, that the temple of God has for several millennia been within those who are His. I Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. Have you considered this is probably why no measurements are given? Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. Considering we have been chosen from the foundation of the world, and He has continued to preserve a remnant of Israel according to His foreknowledge, they are no more exempt from the inheritance promised from the beginning, and will not be left out of anything that any other believer is part of. REMEMBER what you have learned, the last shall be first and the first shall be last, God is no respector of persons. This is another instance where your theory departs from what is known and therefore it collides with your time frame. Revelation 14 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. How does this align with what you presented?

Well, until the chronology issue is addressed it would be difficult to go into too much detail, but I did touch on some of the aspects of timing in a post you haven't gotten to yet. What I'm trying to avoid is throwing too much on the fire at once, right now we already have multiple topics under discussion. I don't have any problem answering any question you might have, but right now we are still circling chronology, and also how we view the future of the Israeli people. These are pretty large topics on their own merit, but if you want to delve into something else, feel free.

I agree with you, and I am not asserting that the questions have to be answered in the order they were asked, what I am asserting is that the questions would be answered with the correct response. In regards to the specific details regarding the information He shared with them, it is not done in any specific order, which I already have pointed out in a previous post you haven't gotten to yet. This is precisely the issue that arises when you are dividing things up by entire segments of scripture, each line must be accounted for in all three gospel accounts. I think from what I reveal with scripture in that post not long ago, is when you state that Matthew 24:4-14 applies to what you refer to as the "church era", Luke clarifies that these very things precede what Matthew and Mark refer to as sorrows or birth pains, respectively. The point is, the "church era" began with the disciples and continues to this very day, and that after discussing all the various aspects of the tribulation period, Jesus then tells them the WHEN regarding His sign. In all three accounts it is AFTER all the tribulation that He disclosed, including the AoD and the period of time He defines as the "great tribulation". The elephant in the room that you cannot avoid, is that following verse 29 there are no more references to tribulation of any kind, and that would be because it all occurred before the statement, "immediately after the tribulation of those days". Everything that follows in chapter 24 and 25 relates to His coming and what transpires after His coming. And yet there are specific things said to them that they would, and did, experience personally, there is no getting around it, and as I have shown with scripture it has nothing to do with the order in which things were said, so it cannot be sectioned away. Each event must be examined on its own merit to determine the order of things. While one is free to speculate that historical events may repeat themselves in the future, it should never affect our recognition of a prophetic message being fulfilled. This is a dangerous and slippery slope for any Christian to take, because ultimately it undermines the reliability of scripture. For example, if I were to tell you that you need to keep your eyes open for the birth of the Messiah, what would your response be? In regards to your bringing up the attack on Jerusalem, and how they may have viewed it, I would like to remind you of a subtle difference between Luke and the other two accounts. Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke's account varies from Matthew and Mark in that the first verse of this section from the other two are in reference to the AoD rather than Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. How the disciples still living at the time viewed this I cannot say, but it is interesting that Luke, who was not an apostle, gives the different viewpoint in this regard. Whether they were aware of John's Revelation at this point or not I cannot say, but if we assume they were not then it is most likely they would have believed this event took place in their time. The reason Revelation is significant is because in chapter 11 John discusses these events, the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles, and the timing related to the two witnesses. There is no historical account or version that can address the two witnesses, their 3 1/2 year ministry in Jerusalem, their subsequent death, and their bodies rising after 3 1/2 days as they are called up to heaven, so it is safe to assume this is still future. Again this conflicts with itself, and some of your own statements in regards to it. For example, the entire passage from verses 4-28 contain the same events in both of the sections you are separating from each other and they also make distinctions in timing from the very same passages you are separating into their own group. Sorry, I answer when I have the available time to do so and would just encourage you to do the same. I'm enjoying the discussion, so I look forward to your replies.

I'm glad that you are starting to understand my view of things, that certainly helps with the discussion. I have the advantage of understanding the pre-trib theory in that I once also believed that would be the case, although in some circumstances your viewpoint deviates so at times there is still some confusion on my part. The biggest hurdle we have is the chronology issue in regards to Revelation, so what you have to do when considering what I say is realize that there is no chronology to Revelation presented. Interestingly enough, even when I was pre-trib, I have never found Revelation chronological, so it isn't something I can relate to. As far as the time gap between the sign of His coming and His actual arrival on the Mt. of Olives there is no specific length of time given in scripture. I am not one for making predictions, but based on my overall understanding the time required between will come down to factors that are unknown to us. What I mean by that is this, the travel time associated with His coming relates to the amount of time required for the enemy forces to gather for Armageddon. Depending on who that includes and their physical location, available means of travel at that time, etc., the length of time would vary on that basis. I do not believe we are talking about a lengthy amount of time at all, based on what I read in scripture those involved will be from that region of the world. The events of the 6th seal precede the sign of His coming, by how much time there is no certainty as scripture does not say. The passage only records the reaction of those on the earth as a result of the sun, moon, and stars being affected. Could their reaction also be associated with the appearance of His sign in the sky? I would say yes, I believe there are enough scriptural references to associate the appearance of His sign with their response, based on the information from the Olivet discourse. In regards to the events directly relating to His arrival as described in chapter 19, my answer is yes, this is what His coming is all about. Keep in mind, when Jesus first told the disciples He would come again, He was here on earth. When one tells you that they will "come again", they are referring to the location in which the statement is made. So if for example, you are invited over to a friends house and as you are leaving he asks you to come again in the future, he is inviting you to his house again in the future, not some other location. Amen to that.

Great! Thanks for clarifying that point for me, it appears then that we agree on this. Ok, here we are having a complete breakdown in understanding. Perhaps I am just not understanding you, so based on what you stated, here are my objections. 1. You state above that verses 27 and 28 come AFTER verse 30, but clearly numerically speaking you have that backwards. 2. You seem to be suggesting that the sign of His coming is specifically for the Israelites, are you suggesting that if this brilliant light appears in the sky ( and is the only light in the sky based on the events of the 6th seal having preceded it) that only one race of people are going to notice? To expand on why this doesn't hold up under scrutiny, please refer back to the events of the 6th seal itself and the results of it. I think it is pretty obvious from the response of the earth's inhabitants, that the tribes of the earth mentioned in the Olivet discourse include all people. Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” Ok, so my response to this is quite simple, the adherence to dispensationalism often has the effect of blinding one to the evidence of things they already know, so that they can continue to adhere to dispensationalism. Here is what happens when one tries to divide the Olivet discourse using dispensationalism and negating the fact that Jesus is speaking to a specific audience. There are other witnesses, who include different details in their witness of the Olivet discourse. Just compare line by line, what Matthew recorded versus what Luke recorded in regards to this section of the Olivet discourse. Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives. There are two important aspects to account for from these two passages, first, the fact that Luke makes it clear that some of these events are very clearly, directly specific to the actual people sitting in front of Jesus at the time. They are being told that THEY will be persecuted and some put to death, and how to deal with that when it occurs. Secondly, there is specific timing given as to when those specifics are going to occur which I highlighted above. This reveals that how you are trying to divide the answer to the questions by sectioning off entire passages into ages is fatally flawed. You have to account for all the information. So when you take what Matthew says in verses 9 and 10, you can see he is referring to the same things Luke states in verses 12-19. And according to Luke, these things take place prior to what He says takes place in verses 10 and 11. Matthew discusses nation against nation, the earthquakes, famines, etc. in verses 6 and 7, and refers to it as the beginning of sorrows or birth pains. This comes AFTER, even though it is mentioned before. You have mentioned rightly dividing scripture, and all I can say is that must begin by adhering to the order of events that Jesus tells us as opposed to dividing things up based on dispensational leanings. The segments in question are not in the order you are dividing them up in. I would submit the issue that causes all the controversy is dispensationalism, mainly because it ignores the immediate audience to whom Jesus is speaking, and also because it opposes the very questions being asked in favor of splitting things up according to factors that are irrelevant to the entire context of the Olivet discourse. While it leads people to warm and fuzzy conclusions, it simply reminds me of the biblical truth that people in the latter days will be drawn to ear tickling doctrines in favor of reality. All of this is consistent with history as well of course, in that the Israelites were quick to dismiss what the prophets had to say in favor of anyone who was willing to tell them the prophets were mistaken. Again, we differ greatly on our understanding of what a sign is. I understand that pre-trib needs to create an event to account for something that does not appear in scripture, which would be an extra visit by the Lord, so while it is creative in that regard, I still reject the notion because it fails to meet the "test" of scripture. A "sign" is given as direction, it points you to an event, it is not an event in and of itself. To put it in modern day perspective, imagine you decide to take a road trip to Chicago for example. As you travel down the highway, you will occasionally come across "signs" on the road that may for example state, Chicago 266 miles. It wouldn't occur to you to pull over at this sign and start celebrating your arrival in Chicago, because you are not in Chicago, the sign is merely pointing you in a direction, not telling you that you have arrived at the destination.