What did God create first?

[nebula]

Moved to Outer Court to allow savoyard to respond.

Oh great -

Now all we need is for the other non-believers to read the OP and turn this into yet another Creation vs Evolution debate!

Boy will that be weird having 3 debates going on in this one thread.

[ShadowReader]

I'm curious as to what people think.

Please explain why you chose the answer you gave.

I voted: Other

What did God create first? Matter.

God had to create matter before anything else because everything is made up of matter.

When someone says they believe in the Big Bang Theory, ask them, "Where did the matter come from?" They can't explain that part.

ShadowReader

Edited April 2, 2009 by ShadowReader

[nebula]

If you wish to discuss this further I would respect if you please follow the model set by the apostle Paul with the men of Athens: that they reasoned in the scriptures and proved by references.

Colossians 2: 9 For in him [Jesus] all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,

What do you believe Paul meant by "Godhead"?

How could "the fullness of" God dwell in someone who is not God?

Hebrews 1

3 His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

4 having become so much better than the angels, as he has inherited a more excellent name than they have. 5 For to which of the angels did he say at any time, "You are my Son, Today have I become your father?" and again, "I will be to him a Father, And he will be to me a Son?" 6 When he again brings in the firstborn into the world he says, "Let all the angels of God worship him." 7 Of the angels he says, "Who makes his angels winds, And his servants a flame of fire." 8 but of the Son he says, "Your throne, God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows." 10 And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the eretz. The heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. 12 As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail." 13 But of which of the angels has he said at any time, "Sit at my right hand, Until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet?"

* and upholding all things by the word of his power - How can a created being (not God) "uphold all things by the word of his power?" Is this not only something God can do?

* Let all the angels of God worship him - Why would God order the worship of a created being?

* but of the Son he says, "Your throne, God, is forever and ever..." - Here the Son is called God

* And, "You, Lord, in the beginning..." - Here the Son is called Lord

* But you are the same. Your years will not fail - Can this be said of anyone who is not God?

[mizzdy]

* and upholding all things by the word of his power - How can a created being (not God) "uphold all things by the word of his power?" Is this not only something God can do?

* Let all the angels of God worship him - Why would God order the worship of a created being?

* but of the Son he says, "Your throne, God, is forever and ever..." - Here the Son is called God

* And, "You, Lord, in the beginning..." - Here the Son is called Lord

* But you are the same. Your years will not fail - Can this be said of anyone who is not God?

I hestitated to even get into this but Christ is God's word, that is how all angels can worship Him, thats how Christ can sit at the right hand of the Father, Christ can never die so His years will never fail Him. As God's Word He can has all the authority as God, all the powers of God. Hebrews 1:8 is quoting from Ps. 45 but Christ now has an eternal throne and kingdom at least thats what I get when I read the passage. Christ is the first fruit, and it is a new creation just was we are new creations in Him. I am not a JW so please don't think I am yet I can see where God is God and Christ is Christ, separte now with each having their own thrones with Christ sitting at God's right hand.

[HAZARD]

It's interesting you use the term born again. It is a common concept in Christendom today. Yes, I am aware of Satan always transferring himself into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) In fact he rules the world (1 John 5:19) by toleration of Jehovah and it is temporary (because people choose to follow or are misled by Satan).

However the expression "born again" is used only once in scripture in John 3:1-12

John 3:3 states "...Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This shows the importance of being born again which it is VERY important.

However in John 3:13 "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven the Son of Man."

Salvation and the Kingdom of God are two different things. Why?

Jesus statement would mean (if they were intertwined) that Moses, Abraham, and all older ones of faith would not be saved. But that would not be logical.

So they are different meanings.

A careful examination of John 3:1-12 would reveal that Jesus in 3:7 was not stating a command, but a fact. Why?

The Greek expression "is born again" can also be rendered "should be born from above." This means from heaven from Jehovah himself (John 19:11 James 1:17 1 John 3:9) Also Modern Young's Literal Translation renders John 3:7 "It is necessary for you to be born from above." (Watchtower April 2009) The original language shows a matter of fact, not a command.

So being born again is not a personal decision, but God's... you didn't have any say in your first birth did you? Neither do you in the second.

What is the purpose?

Kingdom of God is God's Government which has Jesus Christ at it's head with fellow rulers (Daniel 7:1,13,14 Mathew 26:63)

from every tribe nation and people and rule as kings and priests (Revelation 5:9,10 20:6) as the little flock the 144,000 (Luke 12:32) (Revelation 14:1,3)

It takes place as a two way process first the person demonstrates their faith and public declaration as a Christian in water baptism, and if God sees fit, he is born from holy spirit

Who are they ruling?

The large crowd (Revelation 7:9) who will be on the earth "The righteous themselves will possess the earth and they will reside forever upon it." (Ps. 37:9,11,29)

We are researching born-again this month so i had the article handy.

But back to the Trinity, we can discuss being born-again later, in response to the evidence what does it show?

Personally i have never been baptized. I am going to be in a few months because I've only been a Jehovah's Witness for 4 months and studied the Bible fervently for 11 months, I want to enhance my ministry with more study then get baptized. But I would appreciate if we could keep down the prejudice and follow Paul's custom. (1 Corinthians 11:1 Acts 17:2,3)

You wrote,

"However the expression "born again" is used only once in scripture in John 3:1-12"

.

No, it is in fact mentioned three times in the Bible. John 3:3; John 3:7; and 1 Peter 1:23.

You wrote,

"John 3:3 states "...Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

.

This is twisting Scripture. John 3:3 states "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." . . . . . . . EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN not unless every man?

The manchild symbolizes the 144,000 Jews who were the "firstfruits" to God from Israel, after the rapture of all Jews of the church and the Old Testament Saints. An examination of Revelation 7 and 14 proves that the 144,000 of Israel is the manchild. The companies in both chapters are the same because both companies are sealed in their forheads (Rev. 7:1-3; 14:1), both are the same in number (Rev. 7:4; 14:1), and both have histories that are complete only when they are considered together.

Chapters 7 and 14 of Revelation show the destiny, time of rapture, place or position in Heaven and the occupation of the 144,000 Jews around the throne. There is nothing anywhere in Scripture which would lead us to believe that the 144,000 are JW's?

Haz.

[savoyard]

the term "born from" or anyother expression talking about the new birth is quoted throughout scripture but the expression "born again" is used through John 3:1-12 and when i said once i ment the expression was only used during those collection of scriptures.

How can you explain the Trinity? It is an enigma. These are the facts:

1) The Trinity is entirely pagan in origin, just about all ancient religions employed this dogma

2)The word Trinity never appears in scripture

3)If you believe in the ransom you can't believe in the Trinity because Jesus had to die and be resurrected to redeem mankind, God can't die.

4)Jesus never said he was equal to the Almighty (John 14:28)

5) Judaism was entirely Monotheist not Polytheist like the pagans

6)James 1:13 states God cannot be tried by evil, however Jesus was tempted by Satan (Mathew 4:5-10)

7) I can go on but I have a few questions.

Despite evidence of pagan origin why is it believed?

Despite the word never used in scripture why is it believed?

Despite the incomprehensible dogma why is it believed?

I can go on and on but if i say blue you'll say red if I say up you'll say down. There is no point. I thought coming in here this was some chat room about the Bible but it isn't. Never did Witnesses belittle me for my beliefs as a Born-Again Christian, but humbly showed me the Bible. It was a nice discussion but someone on this forum was right, using the internet to share our beliefs other than the website (link to website removed by mod)is frowned upon (i'm new to Witnesses so that is why i was ignorant). We go door to door (Mathew 24:14 Mark 7:24 Mathew 28:19,20 2 Timothy 4:1-5 Acts 20:20) and that is the way the 1st Century Christians along with Jesus Christ did and what we do today. But i did enjoy the discussion and i wish the best for you all

Edited April 3, 2009 by EricH

[savoyard]

Feel free to delete my account and if it is something i need to do please show me. I'll check in until it is gone. I want you to know that my intention was good and if i offended anyone in anyway or overstepped my bounds i want to assure u i did it in ignorance and with the intention of showing Bible truth. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only religion that studies the Bible completely and it is the truth. And for those who have one come to their door and want Bible truth i advise you with the deepest sincerity of heart to heed the call and "...take life's water's free." (Revelation 22:17)

Edited April 2, 2009 by savoyard

[HAZARD]

Feel free to delete my account and if it is something i need to do please show me. I'll check in until it is gone. I want you to know that my intention was good and if i offended anyone in anyway or overstepped my bounds i want to assure u i did it in ignorance and with the intention of showing Bible truth. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only religion that studies the Bible completely and it is the truth. And for those who have one come to their door and want Bible truth i advise you with the deepest sincerity of heart to heed the call and "...take life's water's free." (Revelation 22:17)

The word Trinity is not one time mentioned in Scripture. The word Godhead is mantioned three times.

Jesus praying to HIS FATHER, and not to Himself. Jesus is a separate and distinct being, a member of the Godhead (Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9).

In eighty separate statements by Jesus Himself, He constantly affirmed that He was not the Father and not the only person in the Godhead. These passages will not permit us to believe in any one person as being referred to. Jesus is the speaker, but He is not the one spoken of. (Matt. 7:21; 10:32-33; 11:27; 15:13; 16:17; 18:10, 19, 35; 19:17; 20:23; 24:36; 25:34; 26:29, 39, 42, 53; Luke 2:49; John 5:17, 43; 6:32, 65; 8:19, 28, 38, 49, 54; 10:17-18, 25, 29, 30, 32, 37; 12:26-28; 14:7, 12, 20, 21, 28; 15:1, 8, 10, 4, 23; 16:23-26; 18:11; 20:17, 21; Rev. 1;1; 2:27; 3:5, 12; 5:1-7, 13; 7:9, 15-16; 10:6; 11:15; 12:10; 21:10; 21:22-23; 22:1-5.

Jesus said His Father "was greater than all" and "greater than I" (John 10:29; 14:28). He then could not be the Father. Paul also stated that the Father was "the head of Christ" (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3). God the Father said of Jesus, "My beloved Son" (Matt. 3:16-17; 17:5; Ps. 2:7). Jesus said of Himself, "I am the Son of God" (John 10:38). Even demons said He was "the Son of God" (Mark 3:11) and the "Son of the Most High God" (Mark 5:7).

Jesus Christ existed in His Spirit body as the Word (John 1:1), throughout all eternity past, untill He divested Himself of His Spirit body and became a man.

As God He has always existed. But, as a man, in taking human form, flesh and blood, He had a beginning.

Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

Mic. 5:2 states He existed from all eternity.

John states of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1;1-5).

Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham, and before the World was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24).

Paul states Christ as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Jesus (Eph. 3:9).

Divine names are ascribed to Him.

These divine names and titles proves that He is by nature divine and a member of the Godhead.

He is called God and Immanuel in (Matt. 1:23; John 1:1; 20:28 and Acts 20:28).

Christ the Lord (Luke 2:26); The Son of God (Matt. 4:3; 14:33; Luke 22:70; John 1:34; Rom. 1:4). He is called "MY SON" by the Father in (Matt. 3:17); The only begotten Son (John 1:18; 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9).

He is called the First and the Last. Alpha and Omega, The beginning and Ending (Rev. 22:12, 13, 16). The Lord (Acts9:17); The Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32; Mark 14:61).

The Holy Child Jesus (Acts 4:30); King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16); Lord and Savious (2 Peter 3:2); and The Word Of God (Rev. 19:13), and many more such titles show He is a member of the Divine Godhead.

In Phil. 2:5-11 Paul speaks of Christ being in God's form and that He laid aside this form and limited His attributes and powers as God to become a man. These powers were given back to Him when He was exalted to the highest place with God, (Coll. 3:1; Mark 16:19), after His lowest humiliation and limitation before God-even to do nothing, say nothing, be nothing and depend entirely upon God the Father for needed grace for body, soul, and spirit, and make a sucess of the work the Father sent Him into the world to do (Phil 2:9-11; Eph. 1:21-23; Col. 1:15-24; 1 Pet. 3:22). We know He did not keep His powers and position whilst a man, else He could not have been exalted back to it.

If He had not laid aside all His Glory and power He could not have had it restored to Him as stated in John 17:5. If He had retained all His riches while on Earth He could not have become poor for our sakes as taught in 2 Cor. 8:9. If He had kept His divine form He could not have taken on human form as taught by Phil. 2:5-11.

His incarnation proves He was limited as a man and grew to manhood as we all do, and He developed normally as any other human child. All the traditional theories of Him making toy birds and animals of mud and breathing life into them so they became real creatures and ran and flew away, and the many other miraculous powers He allegedly had from birth are mere theories and traditions made up by suspicious pagans to make Him equal with their pagan gods. He was a normal man as we are, and He did no miraculous works untill He was anointed fully by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; John 2:11).

After Jesus was annointed by the Holy Spirit to the full, He then posessed all the gifts and Graces of the Holy Spirit to the full, and He demonstrated what being like God among men really is like and He encouraged one and all who aspire to this exalted position, of sons of God with Power (John 3:34; Acts 10:38).

He laid aside His natural and divine attributes, and their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).

Regarding His Humanity. Human names were ascribed to Him. Rabboni (John 20:16), Jesus (Matt. 1:21), Son of Abraham and David (Matt. 1:1), Seed and Offspring of David(Rom. 1:3; Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The second man and the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45-47). The King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2).

He was called a "BABE," a "CHILD," and a "MAN" (Luke 2:16; Isa. 9:6; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2L4-5; Rom. 5:12-21; John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:21, 45-47).

It was prophecied that He would be born of a human mother (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; 11:1; 53:1-12; Ps. 22).

And He had flesh and blood like all other men (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 4:1-6; Luke 24:39; John 19:34).

Jesus Christ, in His glorified flesh and bone body, now sits beside the Father in Heaven (Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), for the Father, who is and did remain a Spirit being, is Spirit and has a Spirit body, and must be worshiped in Spirit and truth (John 4:24). Jesus is not now sitting beside Himself in Heaven, did not talk to Himself, and the Father also did not talk to Himself, send Himself to the Earth and pray to Himself in Heaven, calling Himself my Father in Heaven, and to say so is foolish.

Haz.

[Guest Ken Rank]

I'm curious as to what people think.

Please explain why you chose the answer you gave.

First, I love your screen name being an astronomy junkie of sorts.

Light is the obvious answer, but what is the light? The stars and moon (& sun) which give us physical light were not created until the 4th day, so what was the light in day one? My congregation leader believes it was the substance from which all things were created, in other words, all that would be used to make light was made on day one. And in the Hebrew, I must admit, there is at least some merit to that. But what if it is something more?

Until I know otherwise, I lean toward thinking that the light on day one was the path BACK to God. We serve a God that knew in the beginning what he will know in the end, will know in the end what he knew in the beginning. I think then, knowing he exists outside of time (he created that which we use to determine time) that he knew when he made Adam, that he would fail him. Why else was there "a lamb slain from the foundation of the world?" A sacrifice, before there was a sin. Anyway, could then the light on day one have been the path back to him. Not Yahushua himself (Jesus) as I can show enough verses showing him to be the Creator....but the pathway itself? When Messiah came on the scene, John said he came to bear witness of "the light." He went on to say the light was "the life of all men." Since as a man he became not only the model we are to pattern out own lives after, but the forerunner of our faith, the way the truth and the life....the one through whom we all must come! So I am submitting that his mission (for lack of a better word) MIGHT be the light on day one. Draw your own conclusion.

Peace.

Ken

[Ovedya]

.....

Hazard,

Your post stretches the truth to the extreme of Tritheism.