Evoloution is a true leap of faith

[nebula]

I am trying to take Neb's advice and back out of the politics!

I hope you have fun doing this.

[fudgical]

In terms of the scientific process neither Creationism nor Evolution have gone past the stage of "theory." Therefore, they deserve equal consideration in the classroom.

i think in the case of 'the truth will out' individuals should be able to chose what they believe in. they balance each otehr out. in theory they could BOTH be right... (will expand more down below...**)

If, however, by "creationism" you mean the general concept of a supernatural origin for the universe I would say that such metaphysical meanderings are, by definition, outside the scope of science.

And yet, there you are, sitting at your computer without a CLUE as to where you came from or where you're going. God created you, unique among all the billions who have ever lived, and yet you believe you are the result of random primate evolution. Strange.

evolution (in any form in which it may exist) isn't random...

You exist. There it is. Unless you just WANT to be the descendent of a monkey.

What we WANT is irrelevant to the way it is.

imo - sometimes i want to be the descendant of a monkey. it would be easier that way.

You exist. There it is. Unless you just WANT to be the descendent of a monkey.

What we WANT is irrelevant to the way it is.

True. But when presented with the evidence of being created in the likeness of God, or the lack of evidence that you are descended from monkeys, why would you choose to believe the latter? I don't get it.

What evidence that we are created in the likeness of God? Are we like God in the way we treat each other? Are we like God in the composition of our bodies? Are we like God in our understanding of the universe?

I think we are much more like other primates in the way we treat one another than we are like God's.

I think we are much more like other primates in the composition of our bodies than we are like God's.

I think we are much more like other primates in our understanding of the universe than we are like God's.

i think non-human primates act much more honarably towards their own kind than humans do to their own kind.

**ok, so the fact still remains that evolutionism has been proved small-scale in fruit flies, and why not?(fruit flies - i know, maybe not very trusted information but they have a short life span and can be studied intensly very very easily) surely an inability to evolve would be a weakness? so, God created the world, but he gave us teh ability to adapt to it in order to survive, thus evolution. and if some people chose to take that to a greater level and believe in evolution theory for the creation of the world, well...

(my 2 cents worth... (how much IS a cent??))

Edited March 10, 2009 by fudgical

[Botz]

Fudgical..i think non-human primates act much more honarably towards their own kind than humans do to their own kind.

They are not encumbered with a sinful nature.

[fudgical]

Fudgical..i think non-human primates act much more honarably towards their own kind than humans do to their own kind.

They are not encumbered with a sinful nature.

they also don't have a conscience. or morals.

[Botz]

Fudgical..i think non-human primates act much more honarably towards their own kind than humans do to their own kind.

They are not encumbered with a sinful nature.

they also don't have a conscience. or morals.

Or free-will.

It has often been said that if G-d had not given us free-will, we would have been robots, but I think it is more reasonable to imagine that we would just be another form of animal....which we are not.

[Botz]

Fudgical..i think non-human primates act much more honarably towards their own kind than humans do to their own kind.

They are not encumbered with a sinful nature.

they also don't have a conscience. or morals.

Or free-will.

It has often been said that if G-d had not given us free-will, we would have been robots, but I think it is more reasonable to imagine that we would just be another form of animal....which we are not.

Botz, I often see this claim made, do you have a chapter and verse to back it up?

Hi NC

Try Genesis Chapter 2 vs 18 onwards:

Here is some commentary from the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown which is interesting.

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Ge 2:18-25. The Making of Woman, and Institution of Marriage.

18. it is not good for the man to be alone-In the midst of plenty and delights, he was conscious of feelings he could not gratify. To make him sensible of his wants,

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

19. God brought unto Adam-not all the animals in existence, but those chiefly in his immediate neighborhood to be subservient to his use.

whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof-His powers of perception and intelligence were supernaturally enlarged to know the characters, habits, and uses of each species that was brought to him.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

20. but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him-The design of this singular scene was to show him that none of the living creatures he saw were on an equal footing with himself, and that while each class came with its mate of the same nature, form, and habits, he alone had no companion. Besides, in giving names to them he was led to exercise his powers of speech and to prepare for social intercourse with his partner, a creature yet to be formed.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

21. deep sleep-probably an ecstasy or trance like that of the prophets, when they had visions and revelations of the Lord, for the whole scene was probably visible to the mental eye of Adam, and hence his rapturous exclamation.

took one of his ribs-"She was not made out of his head to surpass him, nor from his feet to be trampled on, but from his side to be equal to him, and near his heart to be dear to him."

.................... ....................... .........................

I don't necessarily agree with all the comments, but it shows something of the disparity between humans and animals.

The Psalmist in Psalm 49 vs 12 and vs 20 is very bold and compares mans self-sufficiency to being animalistic...in other words they are creatures of instinct devoid of godly motivation. The world may well honour them and their accomplishments, but they register a 0 in the eternal hope stakes.

[fudgical]

Fudgical..i think non-human primates act much more honarably towards their own kind than humans do to their own kind.

They are not encumbered with a sinful nature.

they also don't have a conscience. or morals.

Or free-will.

It has often been said that if G-d had not given us free-will, we would have been robots, but I think it is more reasonable to imagine that we would just be another form of animal....which we are not.

it depends on whether you believe that animals have free will or not. Saying that animals have no free will is saying that everything an animal does is causally predicted. Even if they dont have free will in the sense that we accept free will to be - they have some form of it. granted, a majority of an animals actions are controlled by the instinct to survive but surely if animals had no free will then an animal would not be capable of any irrational actions that could not be causally determined. if an animal was unable to have any choice within their lives then there would be no irrational actions within their societies. yes, there are casally determined actions within animals, as within humans, wwe both have the innate fear of death (please dont sidetrack onto the heaven and the afterlife here... im on about death as death...) and we all have a survival instinct. this is still here today and innateness leads to fears such as arachnophobia - behavioural theories are not the first to be accepted! but, accepting the fact that animals may not have such an 'evolved' amount of free will, surely you have to accept that there is a difference between some of their actions - and that they do have a choice?

(illustration, the fact that a pregnant rabbit can 're-absorb' the unborn kittens due to lack of food, and other envoronmental factors (causally determined), against the fact that an adult male gorilla pairing with a female gorilla that has an infant may or may not kill that infant, not dependant on anything in the environment, the male, nor the females position within the shrewd (group of apes), nor on the age of the infant in question.)

*****

and ive just noticed that anyone who believes that animals intelligence varies and has full belief in evolution and thus believes that apes are of a higher intelligence and thus may have more 'free will' than a rabbit, the above example doesnt exactly work, but rabbits can also commit infanticide with no interference from the outside world and to born kits, so yeah...

Edited March 10, 2009 by fudgical

[nebula]

Here you are assuming time, space, matter/energy didn't exist before the universe came to be in its present state. We don't know what the conditions were prior to the universe being as it is now. You ask what other than an entity could have got the ball rolling? Why not a random chance event? Why not some non-intelligent natural force?

This is something I still don't understand.

How is it that it makes sense to you that order came to be out of mass chaos, random chance, boy weren't we lucky?

[fudgical]

it's only by trying to categorise, understand and thus control the chaos theory that we create the ultimate destruction...

[Guest]

..... Botz, I often see this claim made, do you have a chapter and verse to back it up?

Believe It Or Not But....

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Genesis 1:26-27

There You Go