Is OSAS true

[OneLight]

The funny thing about this whole discussion is that when the Perseverance of the Saints and Conditional Security are properly understood and articulated, the differences between them are not so large. And most of the argument centers on things that are not clearly articulated in scripture. Y'all are spending a ton of energy arguing about very little. And the space the argument is occuping are areas where the scriptures don't fill in the blanks, so we try to

I agree. The truth is somewhere in the middle, a balance, if you will.

[Press Forward]

The cowardly believer, the vile believer, the murderer believer, the sexually immoral believer, those who practice magic arts believer, the idolater and all liar believers.....

no such thing

The following is a true story...I knew the young lady and attended the funeral

This young lady went to church that preached the Lord Jesus, and took Jesus into her life. She was a believer and She was a practicing, glorifying lesbian. She had a fight with her girlfriend on a Friday night...put a bullet to her head on the following Sunday Night. (Committed Suicide)

At the funeral the comforting news is she is in the arms of Jesus. Pastor assured everybody she knew Jesus and she is with Jesus and don't worry she is not in hell.

So this is an example of a cowardly, vile, sexually immoral, murderer believer. Yes there is such thing. If you believe the pastor at the funeral, she is celebrating in the arms of Jesus by glorifying the son of darkness in her short lifespan on earth.

Revelation 21:8 NIV

[godrulz]

The funny thing about this whole discussion is that when the Perseverance of the Saints and Conditional Security are properly understood and articulated, the differences between them are not so large. And most of the argument centers on things that are not clearly articulated in scripture. Y'all are spending a ton of energy arguing about very little. And the space the argument is occuping are areas where the scriptures don't fill in the blanks, so we try to

I agree. The truth is somewhere in the middle, a balance, if you will.

Perseverance is either conditional or unconditional. What would the middle be?

The Bible gives us sufficient truth to make an informed decision, but we tend to try to retain our preconceived view even when there is evidence to the contrary.

The Bible teaches the security of the believer (one who believes and continues to believe). It also warns believers about the possibility of falling away/apostasy. If someone renounces/rejects Christ and His work in the end, they forfeit the previous promises and privileges of believers (those in Christ) because they do not have a vital connection to Him (eternal life is in Him, not inherent in us). Apostates (once believed, but no longer do so) are unbelievers and condemned just like those who never believed and are unbelievers.

[OneLight]

The funny thing about this whole discussion is that when the Perseverance of the Saints and Conditional Security are properly understood and articulated, the differences between them are not so large. And most of the argument centers on things that are not clearly articulated in scripture. Y'all are spending a ton of energy arguing about very little. And the space the argument is occuping are areas where the scriptures don't fill in the blanks, so we try to

I agree. The truth is somewhere in the middle, a balance, if you will.

Perseverance is either conditional or unconditional. What would the middle be?

The Bible gives us sufficient truth to make an informed decision, but we tend to try to retain our preconceived view even when there is evidence to the contrary.

The Bible teaches the security of the believer (one who believes and continues to believe). It also warns believers about the possibility of falling away/apostasy. If someone renounces/rejects Christ and His work in the end, they forfeit the previous promises and privileges of believers (those in Christ) because they do not have a vital connection to Him (eternal life is in Him, not inherent in us). Apostates (once believed, but no longer do so) are unbelievers and condemned just like those who never believed and are unbelievers.

Even though I agree with you, there have been many who have brought scripture supporting their stance. Yet, I find nowhere in the bible where God straight up says that once we are saved, we can loose our salvation; nor do I find it perfectly clear that once saved, you can not loose your salvation. Scripture leaves that up to us to make a personal stance, as you agreed with in your underlined and bold statement

[EricH]

The funny thing about this whole discussion is that when the Perseverance of the Saints and Conditional Security are properly understood and articulated, the differences between them are not so large. And most of the argument centers on things that are not clearly articulated in scripture. Y'all are spending a ton of energy arguing about very little. And the space the argument is occuping are areas where the scriptures don't fill in the blanks, so we try to

I agree. The truth is somewhere in the middle, a balance, if you will.

Perseverance is either conditional or unconditional. What would the middle be?

The Bible gives us sufficient truth to make an informed decision, but we tend to try to retain our preconceived view even when there is evidence to the contrary.

The Bible teaches the security of the believer (one who believes and continues to believe). It also warns believers about the possibility of falling away/apostasy. If someone renounces/rejects Christ and His work in the end, they forfeit the previous promises and privileges of believers (those in Christ) because they do not have a vital connection to Him (eternal life is in Him, not inherent in us). Apostates (once believed, but no longer do so) are unbelievers and condemned just like those who never believed and are unbelievers.

My statement was not designed to argue for the middle position. I said the difference (at the end of the day when both positions are fully understood) is a matter of inches rhater than miles. The biggest arguments and differences occur over issues thay are the result of our logical deductions of mysteries in scripture

[Guest yod]

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

it's just too bad that God isn't capable of actually saving those whom He chose and foreknew before the foundation of the earth, eh?

The context of this relates to the corporate election of Israel for service, not individual salvation which does have a conditional element (most covenants are unconditional except Mosaic).

God is faithful, but this does not preclude the possibility of our unfaithfulness and rejection/reversion to a godless state (salvation/perseverance are not coerced unilaterally; love is relational and free).

Yes, the context is relating to Israel as chosen....are they still or did God drop them and go to "Plan B"? Have they not ALWAYS been in rebellion and has He not ALWAYS been chastising them to the ultimate goal of restoration for His glory? The principle is the same; whom God chooses, God keeps and is able to complete the work HE started. Who has been actually "chosen" is the only question.

Matthew 7:22-24 (King James Version)

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Here are people who are doing good works! So it is entirely possible to hear the message and outwardly appear to be a "doer" but He never knew you. Knowing Him is different than claiming to believe in Him. However if He chooses you, then you simply can not change that.

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns?

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace

Eph 10:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

The following is a true story...I knew the young lady and attended the funeral

This young lady went to church that preached the Lord Jesus, and took Jesus into her life. She was a believer and She was a practicing, glorifying lesbian. She had a fight with her girlfriend on a Friday night...put a bullet to her head on the following Sunday Night. (Committed Suicide)

At the funeral the comforting news is she is in the arms of Jesus. Pastor assured everybody she knew Jesus and she is with Jesus and don't worry she is not in hell.

The Pastor is deceiving himself and everyone else. She never knew Him. She may have heard the message and may have received "the words" but not the power of the Holy Spirit. Her "god" was her relationship with this girl. She had something more important in her life than Yeshua.

1 Thess 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.

AND

2 Thessalonians 2:12-14 (New American Standard Bible)

12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is what Shaul told the gentiles in the Greek city of Thessolonikki. If you hear the gospel but continue to take pleasure in wickedness, then you were never His. He has not chosen you from the foundation of the world for salvation or sanctification.

now I will tell you a story: I was chosen and my mother told me this all the time when I was a child because I died for at least 10 minutes and came back to life when I was a year old. Yet, I was atheist until He called me one night when I was 30 years old. I was on blazing fire for a few years and then tragedy struck and I backslid for about a year. Had you met me in that year you might not have believed I was ever His.

I can testify that all the things I did in that year were not fulfilling. I was unable to enjoy the pleasures of sin though it didn't stop me from trying. I looked for the boundries of His love and could not find them because there are none. What I found was that the world had nothing I wanted. In the evenings when I was alone, He was there to remind me that He loved me though I wanted to drown out His voice because I was angry that following Him had cost me dearly.

I am convinced beyond any debate that He is able to carry us on His back whether we ask for it or not.

Nope, I'm not going to argue any more with ya'll but that god you're talking about is named Zeus. He is a counterfeit produced by the greek spirit of humanism and is quite unreliable.

Not my Yeshua! All of His promises are "yeah and amen". He chooses, and He saves.....and that's that.

[EricH]

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

it's just too bad that God isn't capable of actually saving those whom He chose and foreknew before the foundation of the earth, eh?

The context of this relates to the corporate election of Israel for service, not individual salvation which does have a conditional element (most covenants are unconditional except Mosaic).

God is faithful, but this does not preclude the possibility of our unfaithfulness and rejection/reversion to a godless state (salvation/perseverance are not coerced unilaterally; love is relational and free).

Yes, the context is relating to Israel as chosen....are they still or did God drop them and go to "Plan B"? Have they not ALWAYS been in rebellion and has He not ALWAYS been chastising them to the ultimate goal of restoration for His glory? The principle is the same; whom God chooses, God keeps and is able to complete the work HE started. Who has been actually "chosen" is the only question.

Matthew 7:22-24 (King James Version)

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Here are people who are doing good works! So it is entirely possible to hear the message and outwardly appear to be a "doer" but He never knew you. Knowing Him is different than claiming to believe in Him. However if He chooses you, then you simply can not change that.

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns?

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace

Eph 10:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

The following is a true story...I knew the young lady and attended the funeral

This young lady went to church that preached the Lord Jesus, and took Jesus into her life. She was a believer and She was a practicing, glorifying lesbian. She had a fight with her girlfriend on a Friday night...put a bullet to her head on the following Sunday Night. (Committed Suicide)

At the funeral the comforting news is she is in the arms of Jesus. Pastor assured everybody she knew Jesus and she is with Jesus and don't worry she is not in hell.

The Pastor is deceiving himself and everyone else. She never knew Him. She may have heard the message and may have received "the words" but not the power of the Holy Spirit. Her "god" was her relationship with this girl. She had something more important in her life than Yeshua.

1 Thess 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.

AND

2 Thessalonians 2:12-14 (New American Standard Bible)

12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is what Shaul told the gentiles in the Greek city of Thessolonikki. If you hear the gospel but continue to take pleasure in wickedness, then you were never His. He has not chosen you from the foundation of the world for salvation or sanctification.

now I will tell you a story: I was chosen and my mother told me this all the time when I was a child because I died for at least 10 minutes and came back to life when I was a year old. Yet, I was atheist until He called me one night when I was 30 years old. I was on blazing fire for a few years and then tragedy struck and I backslid for about a year. Had you met me in that year you might not have believed I was ever His.

I can testify that all the things I did in that year were not fulfilling. I was unable to enjoy the pleasures of sin though it didn't stop me from trying. I looked for the boundries of His love and could not find them because there are none. What I found was that the world had nothing I wanted. In the evenings when I was alone, He was there to remind me that He loved me though I wanted to drown out His voice because I was angry that following Him had cost me dearly.

I am convinced beyond any debate that He is able to carry us on His back whether we ask for it or not.

Nope, I'm not going to argue any more with ya'll but that god you're talking about is named Zeus. He is a counterfeit produced by the greek spirit of humanism and is quite unreliable.

Not my Yeshua! All of His promises are "yeah and amen". He chooses, and He saves.....and that's that.

While I agree with you on where you have landed, I am not so sure folks on the other side of the argument are worshipping Zeus (knowingly or unknowingly). Most have landed where they have as a result of how they understand the text. I don't agree with where they have landed, but I am not sure accusing them of worshipping a pagan deity is really helpful or accurate.

[Guest yod]

I am not so sure folks on the other side of the argument are worshipping Zeus (knowingly or unknowingly). Most have landed where they have as a result of how they understand the text. I don't agree with where they have landed, but I am not sure accusing them of worshipping a pagan deity is really helpful or accurate.

As moderator, I submit to your authority and apologize for my paternal instinct taking precedence over tact. However, I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that it isn't helpful or accurate. If I were placing trust in a false image of God, I would want to know and hope that someone would tell me. The accurate truth is always helpful to someone who wants to know the Truth.

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful..."

Is it possible that there is such a thing as "another gospel" being taught even today? I believe it is obvious that the Jesus presented to gentiles by a gentile institution in Europe known as "the church" between 200 AD and at least 1600 AD is Zeus projected over the gospel narrative but one would have to know the history to agree. This greek concept of god has permeated almost every theological idea handed down since the "church fathers" through to the Puritans. Things began to slowly change once the printing press allowed everyday saints to read the bible for themselves and re-examine what has been force-fed to us over almost 2 millennia.

The Protest Reformation didn't start with Luther...it started with Guttenburg's printing press in 1450 and Luther was just one of the first people to capitalize on it. The original Reformers didn't go nearly far enough in purging the Asheroth from the land, though.

Once Israel began to literally fulfill the prophecies of returning to their land & recapturing Jerusalem, the faulty interpretive methods that started in the 2nd century with Origen began to be exposed for the travesty they have always been.

As foreign as this idea might sound to the average Greco-American cultural worldview, it would be easy to prove to anyone who is willing to look at the historical facts and compare them to the biblical example that the concept of an unreliable and weak god is not found in the bible but in greek mythology.

It shouldn't hurt anyone's pride to seek the truth. If I'm wrong, it should be just as easy to prove that.

I offer this brief explanation:

http://www.tos.info/fileadmin/Texte/the%20...20of%20zion.pdf

[larryt]

I am not so sure folks on the other side of the argument are worshipping Zeus (knowingly or unknowingly). Most have landed where they have as a result of how they understand the text. I don't agree with where they have landed, but I am not sure accusing them of worshipping a pagan deity is really helpful or accurate.

As moderator, I submit to your authority and apologize for my paternal instinct taking precedence over tact. However, I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that it isn't helpful or accurate. If I were placing trust in a false image of God, I would want to know and hope that someone would tell me. The accurate truth is always helpful to someone who wants to know the Truth.

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful..."

Is it possible that there is such a thing as "another gospel" being taught even today? I believe it is obvious that the Jesus presented to gentiles by a gentile institution in Europe known as "the church" between 200 AD and at least 1600 AD is Zeus projected over the gospel narrative but one would have to know the history to agree. This greek concept of god has permeated almost every theological idea handed down since the "church fathers" through to the Puritans. Things began to slowly change once the printing press allowed everyday saints to read the bible for themselves and re-examine what has been force-fed to us over almost 2 millennia.

The Protest Reformation didn't start with Luther...it started with Guttenburg's printing press in 1450 and Luther was just one of the first people to capitalize on it. The original Reformers didn't go nearly far enough in purging the Asheroth from the land, though.

Once Israel began to literally fulfill the prophecies of returning to their land & recapturing Jerusalem, the faulty interpretive methods that started in the 2nd century with Origen began to be exposed for the travesty they have always been.

As foreign as this idea might sound to the average Greco-American cultural worldview, it would be easy to prove to anyone who is willing to look at the historical facts and compare them to the biblical example that the concept of an unreliable and weak god is not found in the bible but in greek mythology.

It shouldn't hurt anyone's pride to seek the truth. If I'm wrong, it should be just as easy to prove that.

I offer this brief explanation:

http://www.tos.info/fileadmin/Texte/the%20...20of%20zion.pdf

The things you posted here are not understood unless the Spirit of God reveals them. Many do not even see that the visible church is apostate. Most say "not my church" but have been indoctrinated in the churches of humanism - the public schools and universities. Even most "christian" schools have fallen under the influence. It is another gospel, another Jesus, and another spirit.

When it comes to eternal security it is either ALL God's doing or it is entirely in man's hands. There is no middle ground. To usurp glory from the Everlasting God is to serve another god. The God of the bible is everything, man is nothing.

LT

[EricH]

This topic has clearly run its course. All views have been presented along with the pertnent scriptures, and people can make their choices. Once auusations of pagan worship and apostacy start flying we are in the area of TOS violation.

Closed