Instantaneous sanctification-being made holy

[JCISGD]

FoC by whose standards have you proved it, obviously your own but i dont see anyone else backing you. Not even scripture as you claim.

Sorry but as said before Romans is a theological book, and not literal of Pauls life. Will you ignore the scriptures i gave you.

Thats where i will admit some frustration, as there is no poll to get a guage of what others think with out the moderators feeling its getting to personal.

I dont mean a poll proves anything, but you say you prove it and so do I. Its just ping pong.

I was dissapointed my other thread got stopped as i was wanting to see your own presentation of veiws and not just your line for line rebuttals of mine.

Oh well Peace to you brother.

[JCISGD]

Thanks FoC i might take you up on that later, but my point has always been that i dont want to debate you as i think it gets nowhere,obscures the thread and squeezes out others who might otherwise post their veiws except that everything gets lost in the you said i said.

I know your theological stance, ive encountered it in many places and it is predominant in the church, but that is my point also that the church is where it is in its weakened state because of such erroneous teachings. I would like to present what i see needful to the church, but you seem to have set yourself up as the watchdog and will not allow others to decide for themselves.

You say you prove me wrong, maybe you have to others but not to me. So i have to keep posting under the light i have.

[KC02]

Complete and instanious sanctification isn't a Bible doctrine as far as I can tell.

(1John 2:1 [KJV])

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The Bible writer did not say, "If any man sin, he ought to get sanctified." Biblical sanctification is a process. However the progress is often the result of much prayer. It requires teamwork with God.

(Heb 12:1 [KJV])

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Some of our sanctification is our own responsibility. This is Biblical doctrine, although many of us have been taught wrong.

There is some tension between the "right now" and the "not yet." You see it often in Paul's writing. Paul writes as though we are already made perfect, already healed and already delivered. That is actually what salvation means -- it's total restoration. I think it is OK to go ahead and claim these things, although we will still wrestle with the difficulties in the fallen world.

[JCISGD]

Sorry FoC i think you misunderstand my intentions, im not trying to stop you posting, its just that it seems like its a a just debate between the two of us and i feel that anyone trying to follow it would be put off by this.

Its just that i dont think anything is being proved and public interest is lost, where as if we each posted our our veiws seperate more people would join in.

So far i have not seen a stand alone veiw from you, only refutes of what i have said. Its just a you say i say debate.

I will object no more, you are well within your rights and i respect that.

[JCISGD]

Hi KCO2 i can not do justice to this subject as im not that astute or learned, but i have grasped what i read of this by Charles Finney and i am fully convinced of the things i now present.

If you want to look into it i think you would see its truth by doing a web search of Finney and esp Entire sanctification in his Systematic Theology.

I point to him as he was a lawyer and astutley lays out every arguement and objection as if it were a court case.

Also it is widely accepted that 80 % of converts during his preaching stayed true to the faith, as opposed to 20 % by the legendary D L Moody.

The reason lies i believe in the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT that accompanied his preaching as a testament of Gods annointing because of his correct teaching.

That is you dont get good fruit off a bad tree.

[KC02]

While the Bible hasn't changed, discussion about sanctification has moved on since the 19th century. I have studied many of these men. I think they are all good people. John Wesley came very close to the "second work of Grace" theology, so Finney didn't come up with a new idea. If you study what Wesley wrote, you will see he stopped short of believing we can be perfect in this life. The second work of Grace theology is based upon a misunderstanding of what Wesley taught.

I have trouble with the holiness attitudes I see in the church today. People are led to believe they are sanctified, so they have "arrived." And then we begin to put our good works and perfection over God's grace.

Trust me, we will never get to a point in this life where we no longer needs God's grace. Salvation isn't just an experience you remember, but a daily walk with Christ. And so is our sanctification.

God Bless!

Hi KCO2 i can not do justice to this subject as im not that astute or learned, but i have grasped what i read of this by Charles Finney and i am fully convinced of the things i now present.

If you want to look into it i think you would see its truth by doing a web search of Finney and esp Entire sanctification in his Systematic Theology.

I point to him as he was a lawyer and astutley lays out every arguement and objection as if it were a court case.

Also it is widely accepted that 80 % of converts during his preaching stayed true to the faith, as opposed to 20 % by the legendary D L Moody.

The reason lies i believe in the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT that accompanied his preaching as a testament of Gods annointing because of his correct teaching.

That is you dont get good fruit off a bad tree.

[JCISGD]

Thanks for your straight forward and honest replies KC02.

Yes i know Wesely and others also spoke much on this, I only use Finney as i havnt really read much of others.

The false and erroneous holiness teachers out there is another reason i use Finney, as a read of his auto biography and other accounts show that the attitudes you mention are far from true holiness.

There is so much error out there,incuding the belief that holiness means grace is not needed.

The gospel is the GOOD news, that not only is Christ our saviour, but he is also our sanctifier, in THIS life.

The same power that raised Christ is available for our sanctification. To say God has to do it by a process and is unable to do what we cant is the opposite of the gospel.

No where does the true holiness preacher say that they achieve it by their own ability, but by a free gift of God by grace.

Blessings to you.

[JCISGD]

Hi FoC this is one doctrine that i KNOW i will not need to repent of.

I agree i need to be in the Word more than all else, but i will trust the teachings of Finney above all the contempories unless their fruits superceed his.

Was Jesus confusing us when he said, " you cannot get good fruit from a bad tree" ?

Finney himself stated clearly that his teachings were not to be considered final, and that others should go on to greater things, but i have found nothing of his that needs refuting

Finney was fallible, but thats not the same as to say he taught error that needed repenting of, but rather correcting by way of adjustment or adding to.

Perhaps we could discuss where he did fail, but i do know that there are many who apply their misunderstandings to his teaching and testimony and then cry false !

[Guest sapphire2009]

When Abraham was ninety years old and nine , God said to him, walk thou before me and be thou perfect.

Jesus said, be ye perfect.

John said I write unto you that ye sin not....... but IF any man sin, we have an an advocate...... why do so many quote 1John 1:8 and wink at 1John 3:8, and particularly verse 9 :Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The disciples(apostles) were indignant gainst there colleagues because of a request to sit on Jesus' side in His kingdom and also tried to call down fire on the Samaritans........ evidence of an unholy temper.

Now, what is sanctification......

It is the transformation that took place in Abraham after Genesis 17

It is the change that took place in the apostles after the prayer of Jesus in John 17

It is the circumcision of the heart

I would rather thirst after this holy experience rather than argue against it......

To deny the possibility of entire sanctification is to diminish the efficacy of the blood of the lamb.

The experience can be obtained and can be lost, so the fact that someone said he is sanctified and you catch him again in sin, does not make this experience less real..... that individual has lost the experience he once enjoyed.

It is better experienced than explained theologically

Pray for it, even though your brain does not fully comprehend it, your heart can definitely enjoy it!!

Shalom!

While browsing the related threads post`s i came accross two attempts to answer what and how sanctification exists.

One by George which i read 40 % of the posts esp begining and end and one by givenname that got sidetracked i think. And neither gave what i believe was a satisfactory explanation.

I dont say this in pride, and i havnt come into the experience i am about to describe. But here is what i now understand and if any man beat me to it, i can only rejoice.

Circumcision is symbolic of Christ` work in our hearts. Now sanctification may in part be a process i dont know, but the flesh was cut off in one swipe.

The fact that two words justification and sanctification is enough to prove sanctification does not occur at salvation, although positionally this may be so. Every thing was finished on the cross positionally.

To be clear, justification is a gift and work of God recieved by faith. But what i hope to show here is that sanctification is also a gift and a work of God, yet a second work and not to do with salvation but purification.

When we get saved we experience a rush or measure of Gods Spirit. This greatly subdues sin in our life and it is marvelous how that first year is so much like a honeymoon. But if your anything like me, gradually some sins that you thought were gone, began to rise up. Through prayer, fellowship and the word we find a measure of sucess in subduing and even overcoming some sins, depending on the degree of obedience to these disciplines.

This is what disturbs many, that it seems impossible to rid all sin, and yet we know instinctively that surely theres more to it than this for a child of God.

So we either try harder or we begin to hide behind fig leaves. Both methods will not work, and God tries to call us out of them.

In my own case i became very discouraged and began to think the gospel to be the "bad news". I wanted to be victorious and see Gods power set people free, but my own life seem to sink into the quicksand of sin. The more i struggled the more i sank.

It was at a very low point that i cried out to the Lord, and He showed me that although i was saved i needed to hold still while he performed heart surgery on me. We all need and can get a new heart subsequent to salvation. The old heart/man is wicked beyond repair and putting a patch on it will not do.

How? only God knows, when? when we believe Him and ask Him to do it, leaving it in His hands, in His time and His way. This is what it means to be Holy as God is Holy. What He commands, He also gives grace to do but in this case He is the one that does it. This is sanctification proper.

It is Christ living in us with a new heart that He is well pleased to dwell with. So it is no longer i that lives but Christ in me the hope of glory. This is not a theological theory or a positional placing that Paul enthusiastically proclaims, its a reality for him and can be for us too.

Well thats my take on it, i have much more i could say, but will leave it for readers to decide if it reasonates. I do not intend to debate this so take it or leave it.

I may post more later depending on the response, but not in direct reply necessarily.

Edited April 7, 2009 by sapphire2009

[JCISGD]

Well said Sapphire.