Is marriage without a public witness.

[MorningGlory]

That argument is weak at best and an insult at worst..in my opinoin...not that you meant it that way personally

many in the church understand that MAN has NO authority to 'permit' what GOD has given man RIGHT to do...take a wife.

>>>Marriage 'licensing'

[MorningGlory]

If someone is really in love and serious about marriage vows they would give their spouse the very powerful protections and rights and responsibilities included in that "little piece of paper".

Thats right, S.....if we truly love our God and our spouse we should be entirely willing to hand our marriages over to government who hates Him and who, as proven by history, can define 'marriage' in ANY way they see fit....including same gender 'marriages' and flat out racism.

You know what I would find suiting for you ?

Id find it quite suiting if it had been YOU who was trying to marry someone with a different skin color in some state that would have thrown you in jail for it. It would have suited you right to have been madly in love with this person only to find that it was UNLAWFUL by STATE law for you to be with them in marriage.

It would have been VERY Fitting for you, since you love godless govt and their hostile takeover of marriage so much, for YOU to have been the one having to leave your home and all you knew simply because RACIST government then decided that mixed marriages were 'unlawful'

You keep your precious licensing and give your allegience to those who hate God if you will.

I thank God that many in the church are starting to comprehend what marriage actually is to God and that NO man has authority to 'license' it.

I also thank Him that folks like you do not define and decide anything in these matters. HIS word does..

What happens, I wonder, if someone comes into YOUR little world and for whatever reason deems YOUR marraige to be 'unlawful' ?

Let me guess....youre going to DIVORCE because godless govt TELLS you that you are breaking the law in being marriage to your spouse simply because THEY have decided that is the case ?

I hardly think so.

You know why you feel like you do, S ?

Because this issue doesnt AFFECT YOUR life.

If it DID then youd be singing a different tune.

Oy vey!

[MorningGlory]

Nothing like being abrasive and continuing to try to start fights. You've NO clue how to debate anything.

I must have put the wrong person on ignore....Ill try again

That said, I do find your statement to be amusing and ironic given your complete lack of ability in this thread.

Ill be sure to get the right person on my ignore list this time...when you actually BEGIN to DISCUSS the issue in a proper manner have someone tell me to take you off ignore....

Yeah, I really care...I'll be sure to do that. How pathetic.

[Smalcald]

I have shown support in scripture that a man and women are "given in marriage" scripture also shows divorce is something legally done, something that is not simply high tailing it and moving out in the middle of the night, which is what a non-public secret vow would imply. I mean there are no legal hassles right, nobody knows about the marriage because you both just made a little secret deal supposedly before God. You see this is the implication of the free love anything goes mentality which came about in the 60's that is infecting the modern evangelical movement today. No, the bottom line is, no public profession, no legal binding, you have got no marriage.

This kind of bizarre malarkey should be stopped and pointed out, and I will continue to do that. I am no doubt a traditionalist and I will admit I am not a fan of this sort of modern idea. Look if you want the make it up as you go theology fine. But I would suggest people read scripture, read how people were actually married in scripture. Consider the marriage feast where Jesus performed His first public (oh darn there is that word again) miracle, consider other marriages performed in scripture. None of them were secret little deals that people were ashamed to make public and afraid to join their lives, like I said they put their name on the dotted line and put their money where their mouth was. What difference would a letter of divorce mean if the marriage was private? Why would anything be required?

What you are proposing is legitimizing shaking up and fornication. This is a REAL problem in today's church which is why what you are saying is so damaging and dangerous to Christians particularly young Christians who do not understand that fornication IS a sin, that you cannot simply make a promise behind closed doors and say we don't really need that ole piece of paper. Of course the answer is that little piece of paper is a great gift a man and women can give each other and it would take all of fifteen minutes to half an hour to get it and if you were really married you would bind yourself together in that way. I wonder why people would not do that if they were really married? hmmmm.

Now as far as Godless government goes. Government is not the point, the point is being legally bound and tied together as one family, and this is part of the scriptural basis for marriage. In our culture the best way to do that is being legally marriage. I suppose if someone did not want to involve government in that way they could pay the legal fees to re-create a legal document that would equal what a legal marriage does. It is hard, time consuming and expensive but you could do it. Of course once again you could not do it in one of these secret vows you propose. You would have to actually admit that you were married to the other person in a legal document, the horror!

Of course in the end we agree about the essential essence of marriage, which is the lifetime vow involving three entities, God one man and one women, and we both agree that as scripture says marriage is something that God does, as Christ has said, what God has joined together let not man separate. It is something God does we agree. When God does really do this sacred thing for two people those two people will respond by binding their lives together in everyway, including legally as they are now one.

[Bold Believer]

why would anyone object to a public witness that makes a marriage valid according to the government

When that government is starting to define 'marriage' as two men then its time to reevaluate whether we want to let them oversee our marriages.

Laura and I have a license because I want the protections offered, but that is only reason Id have one personally.

(scripture also says to be subject to our government ya know)

The laws dont stop a man and woman from living together in sin, now does it? The marriage police arent going to come knocking if that same couple make a marraige covenant before God....the state simply wont acknowledge the union or provide any protections for it.

is it for the "ease" of separation later?

Let me ask...did that license and ALL those wonderful witnesses stop both my exs from cheating and leaving and moving in with other men ?

Hardly.

All it did was cost me a small fortune that I didnt have to remove it.

That argument is weak at best and an insult at worst..in my opinoin...not that you meant it that way personally

many in the church understand that MAN has NO authority to 'permit' what GOD has given man RIGHT to do...take a wife.

>>>Marriage 'licensing'

I suggest that you have a look at this site as well: http://www.mercyseat.net/BROCHURES/marriagelicense.htm

Who is the state to license or permit a God given right? As Pastor Trewhalla points out in his information, the power to license also implies the ability to DENY permission. If the Church doesn't start taking charge of the things it was given authority to control, we're going to be in deep stuff. Or perhaps deeper stuff. The more authority we give to the state, the less true rights we will have.

[Smalcald]

They will respond in the way THEY see fit to do as a married couple...not in the way a poster at worthyboards SAYS the will respond....

No if they are Christians they will follow the teachings of their congregation and marriage in scripture; not what they see fit, not what I say nor what you make up.

What I see the more of these posts that I read of several people on these boards is a complex convoluted rationalization for fornication, adultery and divorce. The fact is what you are talking about is fornication or living together outside of marriage. Many many people say we are as good as married, blah blah blah, we don't need that piece of paper, and this rationalization for shaking up is as old as marriage itself. I don't know you are probably correct people who want to fornicate will fornicate and call it whatever they want; people who want to divorce will divorce and make up bizarre complex rationalizations later.

Christ is clear about those things. You say "so what" to my scriptural evidence of what marriage was in scripture, what Jesus was referring too when He spoke of marriage and divorce. Which I guess makes some sense.

But indeed Christ is the center of what we should be doing, He was talking about marriage which meant something to the people listening to Him, just as it means something to the majority of people today, He was not talking about living together with a secret promise, no He was talking about true marriage; it included a binding of lives and families, thus the two become one and everything was joined.

Like I have said, if people are radically anti-government okay fine, then they better be one of these groups not getting drivers licenses or registering their property or taking social security or paying taxes. Those groups DO exist in the US and I understand where they are coming from. In that case the legitimate marriage legalities could be replicated by written agreements. But it is highly suspicious to do all of these other government things and licenses, EXCEPT this one marriage license which has tremendous benefits for your husband or wife? Why would someone do that? Hmmm.

I have to say I must give you credit for your complex justifications for both fornication and divorce and remarriage; I realize you have put much thought into them. But let

[Blien]

I have shown support in scripture that a man and women are "given in marriage" scripture also shows divorce is something legally done, something that is not simply high tailing it and moving out in the middle of the night, which is what a non-public secret vow would imply. I mean there are no legal hassles right, nobody knows about the marriage because you both just made a little secret deal supposedly before God. You see this is the implication of the free love anything goes mentality which came about in the 60's that is infecting the modern evangelical movement today. No, the bottom line is, no public profession, no legal binding, you have got no marriage.

This kind of bizarre malarkey should be stopped and pointed out, and I will continue to do that. I am no doubt a traditionalist and I will admit I am not a fan of this sort of modern idea. Look if you want the make it up as you go theology fine. But I would suggest people read scripture, read how people were actually married in scripture. Consider the marriage feast where Jesus performed His first public (oh darn there is that word again) miracle, consider other marriages performed in scripture. None of them were secret little deals that people were ashamed to make public and afraid to join their lives, like I said they put their name on the dotted line and put their money where their mouth was. What difference would a letter of divorce mean if the marriage was private? Why would anything be required?

What you are proposing is legitimizing shaking up and fornication. This is a REAL problem in today's church which is why what you are saying is so damaging and dangerous to Christians particularly young Christians who do not understand that fornication IS a sin, that you cannot simply make a promise behind closed doors and say we don't really need that ole piece of paper. Of course the answer is that little piece of paper is a great gift a man and women can give each other and it would take all of fifteen minutes to half an hour to get it and if you were really married you would bind yourself together in that way. I wonder why people would not do that if they were really married? hmmmm.

Now as far as Godless government goes. Government is not the point, the point is being legally bound and tied together as one family, and this is part of the scriptural basis for marriage. In our culture the best way to do that is being legally marriage. I suppose if someone did not want to involve government in that way they could pay the legal fees to re-create a legal document that would equal what a legal marriage does. It is hard, time consuming and expensive but you could do it. Of course once again you could not do it in one of these secret vows you propose. You would have to actually admit that you were married to the other person in a legal document, the horror!

Of course in the end we agree about the essential essence of marriage, which is the lifetime vow involving three entities, God one man and one women, and we both agree that as scripture says marriage is something that God does, as Christ has said, what God has joined together let not man separate. It is something God does we agree. When God does really do this sacred thing for two people those two people will respond by binding their lives together in everyway, including legally as they are now one.

Agreed. I am still in agreement with you.

[Guest LadyC]

FoC, i appreciate your passion for the subject... i still don't necessarily agree with you though, since other than adam and eve, marriages between God's people seemed to be ceremonial, public events. that clearly wasn't possible when adam and eve were the only two people on earth, but we know their marriage was ordained by God because God created eve TO BE adam's wife.

but i don't want to argue that point with you. what i would like to bring to your attention is the combative attitude you have with those who disagree with you. first off, this is not a salvational issue. i'm not sure, but i seem to recall that people here have referenced scriptures that warn against getting in heated disagreements about things that do not pertain to salvation. can someone please remind me where to find that?

while i can't point to chapter/verse on that, i can point to many scriptures that tell us how we are to behave towards our brothers and sisters in Christ, and how our attitudes should reflect on God. we are to glorify God in all we say and do.... and FoC, your attitude, your tone, is not glorifying to God in any way, shape or form.

the bible also has some things to say about a contentious spirit.

if you'd like i'll look up the verses about glorifying God and about a contentious spirit and post them here for you. would you find that helpful?

[Blien]

Isaiah 4:1

For seven women will take hold of one man in that day, saying, "We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach!"

Malachi 2:14

"Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.

Romans 7:2

For a married woman is bound by the law to her husband while he is living, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning her husband.

cov⋅e⋅nant

[kuhv-uh-nuhnt]

–noun

1. an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.

2. Law. an incidental clause in such an agreement.

3. Ecclesiastical. a solemn agreement between the members of a church to act together in harmony with the precepts of the gospel.

4. (initial capital letter) History/Historical.

a. National Covenant.

b. Solemn League and Covenant.

5. Bible.

a. the conditional promises made to humanity by God, as revealed in Scripture.

b. the agreement between God and the ancient Israelites, in which God promised to protect them if they kept His law and were faithful to Him.

6. Law.

a. a formal agreement of legal validity, esp. one under seal.

b. an early English form of action in suits involving sealed contracts.

[MorningGlory]

FoC, i appreciate your passion for the subject... i still don't necessarily agree with you though, since other than adam and eve, marriages between God's people seemed to be ceremonial, public events. that clearly wasn't possible when adam and eve were the only two people on earth, but we know their marriage was ordained by God because God created eve TO BE adam's wife.

but i don't want to argue that point with you. what i would like to bring to your attention is the combative attitude you have with those who disagree with you. first off, this is not a salvational issue. i'm not sure, but i seem to recall that people here have referenced scriptures that warn against getting in heated disagreements about things that do not pertain to salvation. can someone please remind me where to find that?

while i can't point to chapter/verse on that, i can point to many scriptures that tell us how we are to behave towards our brothers and sisters in Christ, and how our attitudes should reflect on God. we are to glorify God in all we say and do.... and FoC, your attitude, your tone, is not glorifying to God in any way, shape or form.

the bible also has some things to say about a contentious spirit.

if you'd like i'll look up the verses about glorifying God and about a contentious spirit and post them here for you. would you find that helpful?

I'm glad someone else noticed the stepping all over other posters that's going on in thiis thread. It seems that the ONE poster believes he has the floor, only his views are worthwhile, and it's okay to insult others at will. Why those 'others' are allowing him to get away with it escapes me though.