The Gospel or What???

[stevehut]

Well, isn't that what an altar call is for?

[One Way]

No, IMO, an altar call is where we look to reap where others have sown. Interesting take there.    This is interesting, because I have attended dozens of altar calls.  I have never heard of anyone leaving the altar withoutassurance of their salvation. (This, after about 3 minutes of discussion) 

...Or is your church different?  Do you turn away people who (in your discernment) aren't ready?

No, they aren't turned away. Because, even Jesus showed in the parable of the sower that we just can't tell what is happening in a man's heart.

Jesus even went as far as to tell us NOT to separate the wheat from the chaff? Why, because man's interpretation of things can be skewed.

Give the gospel. Give the benefit of the doubt. If someone is obviously down there for the wrong reason (they're fidgeting and joking around with friends like they were hanging out at the mall or something), then I wouldn't think it proper to interrupt the event for those who are truly being touched.

Blessings...

[stevehut]

No, they aren't turned away. Because, even Jesus showed in the parable of the sower that we just can't tell what is happening in a man's heart.

So you just assume that everyone who answers the altar call is already saved? I don't understand...

[One Way]

No, they aren't turned away.  Because, even Jesus showed in the parable of the sower that we just can't tell what is happening in a man's heart.

So you just assume that everyone who answers the altar call is already saved? I don't understand...

I think any honest believer, who is grounded in the word, knows that not all that name the name of Christ are His.

But, we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Out of 10 coming forward, 2 or 3 might truly be saved... maybe more... maybe less. But, we don't necessarily know who they are. Thus, the proper thing to do is minister to all of them. Then, they will demonstrate whether or not they have been regenerated as time marches on.

But, nobody can make that determination at the moment of "the altar call." To say so is being presumptuous.

Many people get truly saved at large scale crusades (Billy Graham, Harvest, etc). But, 75% of the people who "make a decision for Christ" are "probably" not truly saved.

Our job is to scatter the seed, water it, and reap when the opportunity arises.

Blessings...

[stevehut]

Many people get truly saved at large scale crusades (Billy Graham, Harvest, etc). But, 75% of the people who "make a decision for Christ" are "probably" not truly saved.

Yup.

This is the reason why I always cringe whenever I hear the Promise Keepers, Billy Graham, etc. announce that

"50,000 people got saved at our revival last night! Woo Hoo!!"

Mighty presumptuous, methinks, from a 3-minute conversation.

[stevehut]

Anyone care to comment on this subject? I thought something like this would generate more interest...

[Christ's Free Servant]

One thing I noticed in Chapter 7 is at the end, it gives a chance for people to believe and recieve. However, I noticed no where the issue of repent and confessing sin. Can we have salvation without repentance and confession of sin?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BigJer,

I know this has been discussed before, but I am finding this increasingly becoming the "norm" in the Christian movement today. It is not only that repentance is not mentioned, but they have watered down the meaning of the word "repent," to mean merely a change of mind. What does that mean? What are you changing your mind about? They say that it does not mean turning from sin, because to turn from sin would mean that you would have to live a sinless life and also to turn from sin puts the emphasis on "works" for salvation instead of Christ paying it all on the cross. Though I agree that we can not be saved by works and that Christ did pay it all, still we must turn from our sin if we are to truly be saved. And, Christ gives us the ability to turn. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, so if that is the case, no one can repent unless God gives him the ability to do so. All of the Christian values I grew up under are being redefined to make the Christian life palatable so that people will desire it and easy so that we don't offend anyone with talk of sin, etc. And, the crucified life is rarely mentioned anymore, because of fear that we might offend people with the gospel.

What I see is signs of the last days upon us and a near return of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is going to judge, and that judgment will begin with the church.

[stevehut]

I am finding this increasingly becoming the "norm" in the Christian movement today. It is not only that repentance is not mentioned, but they have watered down the meaning of the word "repent," to mean merely a change of mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yup.

[book_wirm]

I hear alot of talk against "alter calls" and "instant conversions" and such...are we really saying that true conversion doesn't happen at a specific moment? I have to say that is a rather progressive idea. It is a birth...there is a moment when one is not yet born and then the next a birth has taken place. No doubt at all that SO MANY who claim Jesus as LORD have never experienced such a birth but to push conversion experiences in all sorts of ridiculous ways to the point of absurdity does not solve the problem. We are confusing conversion here with the proof which follows...the proof in which a man is shown to be a child of God or unregenerated.

I can't speak for any other, but I do not get the impression that it is being put forth that once someone "makes a profession" or "says a sinners prayer" they have arrived at the pinnacle of what it means to be a Christian, God forbid! There is now to follow years, Lord willing, of service and maturing. But I must hold that salvation from the penalty of sin to new life in Christ by the adoption of God is a heartbeat, a spark. It may take, as one has already said, years, months, or only hours to come to that point but it is at that point that the sinner is made a saint through new birth.

Perish the thought that we would think the rehearsing of some prayer coaxed from the unregenerate will gain them anything in the next world...

but also the thought that the sincere prayer of a man who's eyes are newly opened by the God is of no avail.

This is not to say that a "sinner's prayer" is the recipe for salvation. I tend to avoid suggesting such a thing, but neither is it in itself proof of insencerity.

In Christ,

Eric

[Christ's Free Servant]

Perish the thought that we would think the rehearsing of some prayer coaxed from the unregenerate will gain them anything in the next world...

but also the thought that the sincere prayer of a man who's eyes are newly opened by the God is of no avail.

This is not to say that a "sinner's prayer" is the recipe for salvation. I tend to avoid suggesting such a thing, but neither is it in itself proof of insencerity.

In Christ,

Eric

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eric,

When I was growing up, the idea of someone believing in Jesus Christ as his/her Savior meant confession and repentance of sin. The person making the decision to receive Christ understood that it meant abandoning his/her life of sin and instead turning to follow Christ. It was understood this did not mean sinless perfection, but it certainly meant turning the other direction, even if it was two steps forward and one step backwards or one step forward and two steps backwards sometimes. It was the beginning of a new life, not putting new clothes over top of old ones. Being "born again," means to begin again, anew, afresh - a new beginning. And, Christian growth is a life-long process. And, yes, it begins at the instant the person says "yes" to Jesus with a sincere heart that desires to leave his/her life of sin and to walk in fellowship with God.

The problem as I see it is that we have gotten away from that. Instead, we are preaching "another Jesus." We are telling people that if they want to go to heaven all they have to do is pray a prayer to receive Christ as their Savior and when they die they get to go to heaven. And, some even go as far as to tell them that from that point on if they sin, it is no longer held against them, which is true, but there is a twist to it. If we give them the impression that all they have to do is pray a prayer and "poof" they have their ticket into heaven but we don't tell them this means "the cross", and then we give them the impression that they are saved because they prayed a prayer and even if they go and continue sinning the way they were sinning they still have a guarantee of eternal life, I believe we are giving them false security.

I believe this is where the concept of "instant" salvation has come from. It is like going through the drive-through at a restaurant. We want it quick and easy and cheap and without much hassle to us so that we can continue to live our lives the way we live them. To me, that is like we are just using God. We have no intention of changing our lives or serving him or whatever might be pleasing to a Holy God. We just want God in our back pocket as our safety net.

Here is an analogy. Suppose you were in a top story of a burning building with no way out other than to jump to safety out of the window. There is a safety net at the bottom if you jump. But, you are afraid to let go. You are afraid to trust your life into the hands of another. You'd like to take a slower path where you could decide part way if you want to continue or go back. Or, you may just want to hold on to the building with one hand and try to reach for the safety net with the other hand. You'd like to meet this challenge half-way or with a compromise that would not mean having to jump, but there really are only two choices - one is to jump to safety which means to let go and put your complete trust in your savior at the bottom or you can continue to hold on or rationalize your way out of the situation or try to find a compromise of some kind and all you are going to do is burn to death.

This is the way the Christian life really works. When Jesus called his disciples the Bible tells us they "left everything" and followed him. It means jumping to safety. It means letting go of what is going to burn and cause us to burn up with it. It means total commitment and surrender and complete trust in the one who is going to save you. Have you ever played that game where someone stands behind you and you close your eyes and they tell you to fall backwards? I have. It takes complete faith to just fall into the arms of the other person. This is what it means to receive Christ as our Savior. But, what I am hearing today is "another Jesus." What I am hearing is that all is required is to pray a prayer that does not mean surrender or commitment or true faith/trust in the Savior to actually save me. If I truly have faith that a person is going to save me, I'll jump or I'll fall backwards into his/her arms. It costs me something. I have to let go. But, this new philosophy does not involve any "letting go." It just puts Jesus on top of the old garments, and the Bible says it doesn't work that way.